I got the first question at the FFG in-flight conference

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

 

If you look at the tournament lists, you see a very diverse mix of everything, not just new ships.  That right there is all you need to show that there is no power-creep.

 

Thats not what I see in the Regionals results thread.

 

 

Are you at GenCon? Are you looking at the lists on the tables at the national championships?

 

I should be getting full lists from FFG sometime next week. I'm very interested to see all of the lists, especially if they are more diverse than Regionals, as you imply.

 

Also FYI, Paul was kind enough to give some insight into Flight 1 on Thursday. 

 

It was Han (Vet inst, Luke, Engine, C3PO, MF), Biggs, Tala.  VI was there to always beat Whisper and other PS9-10 pilots, since high PS is more common now.

 

As the final round began, 5 of the top 8 lists were running at least one Falcon, so I expect to see a lot of mirror matches on Saturday.  Z-95s were common on the top tables, of course.  E-Wings made a good show as well: R2D2 + E-Wing = a pain for Han lists to kill.  Nick was the highest Phantom pilot I saw, and I didn't see any Defenders high up.

 

I have no idea how today went, since I went to the Indy Kids Museum today. 

 

 

 

 

Anyone ask whether FFG ever looks at these forums, especially MajorJuggler's statistical analyses?

 

God, I hope not.

 

 

I'm not sure what merits such a strong reaction? The current developer has stated in an interview on Nova Squadron Radio (podcast) that they are aware of the Regionals thread, and to paraphrase, "would be foolish not to use the data". Insight into the design process is rarely a bad thing.

[Introverdant 707]

I'm not sure what merits such a strong reaction? The current developer has stated in an interview on Nova Squadron Radio (podcast) that they are aware of the Regionals thread, and to paraphrase, "would be foolish not to use the data". Insight into the design process is rarely a bad thing.

 

 

 

We all very much appreciate and respect the work you put into gathering and organizing that data.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,896]

Really would have wished someone would engage them in a must-answer way with some facts about that ship.

 

Like this?

 

[Knucklesamwich 802]

There are 3-4 "fix the tie advanced" threads every week on these forums. I thought it was my civic duty to make sure the topic was brought to the attention of those who I knew could address it. That's why I was the first person to ask a question. I had intended for quite a while to make sure that the topic was covered.

[AlexW 2,902]

One tournament is not enough to make such a claim. Plus it really matters more what lists do well in the tournaments for getting information on the state of balance.

 

The same could be said for the regional results, and that looking at them as definitive representative of balance is flawed (though I'm not going to argue the Advanced is a good ship, I'm addressing your above post).   It's great information and certainly does inform the strength of ships to some degree, but there are a lot of other things going on with what gets to top tables, especially in a tournament season where a new Wave is dropped right in the middle.     

 

How much a ship is being played (for whatever reason) is a big factor in that, and we don't have that information. Also, as has been said before, it's worth considering how much tracking regional tourneys in such detail has narrowed the builds that people are experimenting with.  I'm not saying I don't enjoy or appreciate the results, but the knowledge does influence things and that fact should be considered when attempting to use regional results as support.

 

Especially if the current speed of release continues, we'll never see a meta settled the way it was between Wave 3 and 4, so tracking the results is going to be much more about how people are reacting to the new ships rather than the strength of the new ships themselves, not to mention a third faction is going to really shake things up.

Edited August 16, 2014 by AlexW

[Knucklesamwich 802]

I think what was most disappointing to me and maybe a lot of other players who play mostly Imperials is that again we see the rebel ships get much more attention then the imperials. The rebels Already have a dramatic lead in choices of unique crew ,astromechs and synergistic pilots. The ability to customize with the rebels far exceeds what is available to the imperials at this point. Many imperials feel like we have one ship that just is not worth it in timed competitive play and that is represented by the fact that it is hardly ever seen being used. The imperial community resoundingly requests help in making this ship worth playing and it seems to fall on deaf ears. We are now at wave 6 and wave 4 ships are getting treatment before the tie advanced? I just don't get it.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Knucklesamwich

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I think what was most disappointing to me and maybe a lot of other players who play mostly Imperials is that again we see the rebel ships get much more attention then the imperials. The rebels Already have a dramatic lead in choices of unique crew ,astromechs and synergistic pilots. The ability to customize with the rebels far exceeds what is available to the imperials at this point. Many imperials feel like we have one ship that just is not worth it in timed competitive play and that is represented by the fact that it is hardly ever seen being used. The imperial community resoundingly requests help in making this ship worth playing and it seems to fall on deaf ears. We are now at wave 6 and wave 4 ships are getting treatment before the tie advanced? I just don't get it.

The Advanced is a problem. Everybody in the community knows it's a problem, and FFG would have to be deaf and stupid not to realize it. But the Advanced is also a thorny problem to solve, as evidenced by the large and varied set of solutions that get thrown up every time the topic arises; maybe it's just not solved yet, or maybe it is solved but there's a delay elsewhere in the pipeline from design to FLGS shelves. Who knows how it will be packaged, or with what?

So my recommendation for the Imperial players who are, like my eight-month-old son, inclined to burst in to tears every time he realizes his favorite toy isn't within arm's reach... those players need to pull up their big-kid diapers, understand that the world often reflects considerations and constraints other than their desires, and practice patience.

(I know it's hard; patience doesn't come easily to me, either. But there's really no other option, here.)

[AlexW 2,902]

I think what was most disappointing to me and maybe a lot of other players who play mostly Imperials is that again we see the rebel ships get much more attention then the imperials. The rebels Already have a dramatic lead in choices of unique crew ,astromechs and synergistic pilots. The ability to customize with the rebels far exceeds what is available to the imperials at this point. Many imperials feel like we have one ship that just is not worth it in timed competitive play and that is represented by the fact that it is hardly ever seen being used. The imperial community resoundingly requests help in making this ship worth playing and it seems to fall on deaf ears. We are now at wave 6 and wave 4 ships are getting treatment before the tie advanced? I just don't get it.

 

Not sure what there is to get.  

 

Hexis made a good point about the "natural flow of releases" and, at least since they've started releasing aces packs there's not been much of an opportunity to put out a good fix for the advanced.   Look at what they have done recently and it just doesn't fit so far.

 

Sure Wave 4, 5, and 6 have been released/announced, but do you really expect them to release a TIE advanced in any of these waves?  Wave 5 addressed a pretty glaring Imperial need in a large ship with a turret, as well as a couple of "Imperial only" cards (one of your other complaints).    Wave 6 introduces a whole new faction, yes, with repeat ships for once, but does a TIE advanced make sense here?

 

Arguably, they've band-aided the advanced with Proton Rockets in the Rebel Aces set, a set for rebels that gave them their first aces set (I don't think it would have been wise to release another Imperial Aces set, do you?).

 

The argument that the Z-95 is getting a "treatement" is a bit weak.  Any options they get are likely going to be available to anyone (modifications, and missiles -- which are good for the advanced by the way) or limited to the S+V faction (pilots).   And, the Y-Wing makes sense here and is just as old as the advanced, so any fix there are just as well deserved.  And, at whatever point they decided to release a third faction, this would make a clear logical choice here.  

 

That logical point for the advanced hasn't come yet, but maybe there are cards that it can put to good use in the meantime. Sure, you could argue that they could release an imperial big ship with an advanced like the transport, but I don't think that's an ideal option.   Otherwise, you're left with replacing one of the ace sets, but those don't seem ideal either since the imperial ace set was pretty well received and a second imperial ace set before a rebel set would have caused similar frustration, just in different people.

Edited August 16, 2014 by AlexW

[Knucklesamwich 802]

Most people were expecting imperial huge ships. That was the next logical step from last years reveals. That would have given the advanced the chance it needed. I like running the advanced because I do not only play timed games. In an un-timed setting it is a very survivable ship. I would however never take one to a competitive match because you will be putting a defensive ship into and offensive situation since you have only so much time to kill your opponent off. I am still very much in love with x-wing. I just wish we had seen different stuff. If I am able to run my favorite rebel ship the y-wing now as a fringe component in my imperial squads I will be very content.

[Otacon 889]

 

There are 3-4 "fix the tie advanced" threads every week on these forums. I thought it was my civic duty to make sure the topic was brought to the attention of those who I knew could address it. That's why I was the first person to ask a question. I had intended for quite a while to make sure that the topic was covered.

 

Sure, but you were asking the CEO(according to someone else in this thread?) a question about a specific, old ship in one game, in the Q&A session where they just got finished announcing new products across their entire range. It's not like this was an 'Ask the X-wing designers their thought process session'. I don't know, doesn't really seem like an environment where you'd get the sort of answer you were looking for.

[Knucklesamwich 802]

I wanted them to know that to some it was something we are very interested in. I didn't expect them to agree but after seeing that no one used to ever want to fly a-wings for a similar reason they have to know. I am sure thy want to sell every ship and I would put money that the Advanced doesn't sell many ships.

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

 

One tournament is not enough to make such a claim. Plus it really matters more what lists do well in the tournaments for getting information on the state of balance.

 

The same could be said for the regional results, and that looking at them as definitive representative of balance is flawed (though I'm not going to argue the Advanced is a good ship, I'm addressing your above post).   It's great information and certainly does inform the strength of ships to some degree, but there are a lot of other things going on with what gets to top tables, especially in a tournament season where a new Wave is dropped right in the middle.     

 

How much a ship is being played (for whatever reason) is a big factor in that, and we don't have that information.

 

We should at least have this data for some Nationals, including U.S.!

 

For Regionals, I have now calculated the statistics of how often ships make it into the Final Cut + Top Third, vs how well they do once they get there. The downside is that the baseline is not 100% of the lists. The upshot is that it weeds out the lower skilled players, which could skew the stats considerably.

 

 

That logical point for the advanced hasn't come yet, but maybe there are cards that it can put to good use in the meantime. Sure, you could argue that they could release an imperial big ship with an advanced like the transport, but I don't think that's an ideal option.

 

The TIE Advanced is so overcosted (4 points) that the only way to make it viable is a special expansion with unique TIE Advanced only love. It's simply too far in the hole for normal upgrades to help it enough without simultaneously massively breaking game balance on some other ship.

 

 

 

If FFG has shown us one thing, it is that they are more than happy to release new content for the game. If there is a market for it, they will sell it. That said, I would expect to see something like the following in 2015, in no particular order:

• wave 7: 2 Pirates, 1 Rebel, 1 Imperial
• Imperial Huge Ships
• TIE Advanced and TIE Bomber expansion pack

[AlexW 2,902]

Yep, MJ, we've had the conversation before and I think Nationals will present an interesting opportunity, and I don't disagree that a full collection of lists adds another variable to the equation.

 

As for the logical point for the Advanced to get it's own unique expansion, I agree, but that was part of my point that until then, you can only hope for cards that make it more playable.  They've already released one card that does help it and doesn't "massively break game balance" in the form of proton rockets, which clearly target the advanced and A-wing.  Maybe they'll find some other options along those same lines.

Edited August 16, 2014 by AlexW

[Mirrimon 196]

 

One tournament is not enough to make such a claim. Plus it really matters more what lists do well in the tournaments for getting information on the state of balance.

 

The same could be said for the regional results, and that looking at them as definitive representative of balance is flawed (though I'm not going to argue the Advanced is a good ship, I'm addressing your above post).   It's great information and certainly does inform the strength of ships to some degree, but there are a lot of other things going on with what gets to top tables, especially in a tournament season where a new Wave is dropped right in the middle.     

 

How much a ship is being played (for whatever reason) is a big factor in that, and we don't have that information. Also, as has been said before, it's worth considering how much tracking regional tourneys in such detail has narrowed the builds that people are experimenting with.  I'm not saying I don't enjoy or appreciate the results, but the knowledge does influence things and that fact should be considered when attempting to use regional results as support.

 

Especially if the current speed of release continues, we'll never see a meta settled the way it was between Wave 3 and 4, so tracking the results is going to be much more about how people are reacting to the new ships rather than the strength of the new ships themselves, not to mention a third faction is going to really shake things up.

 

 

Indeed, that is why I did not make any hard assertions based on the data. I noted that when looking at the regionals data I did not see "a very diverse mix of everything" as was claimed. The data we have may not be perfect, but it is good. Just wanted to say here that I appreciate the efforts of MajorJuggler and others.

 

How much a ship is played is good for popularity, but does not always correlate to how balanced it is. Better (but not perfect by any means) I think is to look at the ships that do well in the tournaments. There are other ways to look at balance that are also very relevant, but they tend to be more difficult.

 

A settled meta is boring, so I am glad it is shaken up a lot.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Mirrimon

[Knucklesamwich 802]

I am also glad we don't have swarms still dominating everything. I want every ship to be viable in some form. The A-wing is certainly great Now that I have rebel aces in hand.

[Dr Lucky 996]

I suspect the "logical" point to fix the Advanced is when Rebels comes out and we see another TIE Advanced on-screen.  That should give us obvious new pilots, potential new upgrades, and maybe some cool "unique" thing to give the Advanced the role it seems to be lacking.  I doubt we'll see any major fix for it before that.

[librarian101 270]

Some list examples I saw at Gencon, did not note the various upgrades

 

Han

Corran

 

Wedge

Tycho

Green

Green

 

Han

Airen

4 Bandits

 

8 Tie Swarm

 

Phantom

3 Interceptors not sure which

 

Han

Biggs

Rookie

 

4 Blues W advanced Sen

 

Phantom(Whisper)

4 Academy

Howlrunner

 

5 Interceptor swarm, not sure of the combination.

 

Shuttle

Firespray

Phantom

Not sure of exact pilots.

 

2 or 3 mixed mini tie swarms with Phantom 

 

4 or 5 YT1300 builds with xwings, and Z95

 

 

Only saw 1 list that had a defender I think.

 

This was all on Friday

Fri had 59 players or 29 games going at one time.  Not sure of any results.

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

Cool! I'm looking forward to getting the full lists from FFG later next week.

 

The real question is how to be what will make the Top 8 tables today!

[Knucklesamwich 802]

I too saw a lot of x-wing games going on and even at FFG own tables with a huge epic battles going on with 250 points per 4 players there was not one Tie Advanced on any table that I saw. Zero. None. I was sad. I should have pressed harder with my question.

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

I too saw a lot of x-wing games going on and even at FFG own tables with a huge epic battles going on with 250 points per 4 players there was not one Tie Advanced on any table that I saw. Zero. None. I was sad. I should have pressed harder with my question.

 

It's OK, I think it will eventually get fixed in time. Until then there are always House Rules for casual play, the danger is just making sure it is balanced.

[Gundog8324 440]

 

 

Has anyone ever spoken to anyone involved in a media briefing about undisclosed information or consumer products?  They are typically under heavy NDA and briefed beforehand on questions they are likely to receive as well as diversion tactics so as to neither answer nor not answer that question.  You should expect nothing different here.  They were told up front they would be asked about imperial huge ships and the TIE Advanced, and I would bet money they were told to dodge the question instead of risking a slip of any concrete information regarding a confirmation or NON-confirmation.  It's safer for them to dodge completely than to release tidbits.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't be too worried.  They have proven in the past that they are listening.  And even today, we got an announcement for Y-wings, which many have wanted for a while.  All we have to do is wait and see.  I'm eagerly awaiting preview articles for Wave 6.

 

I disagree completely.  Having been to multiple panels for other games... it is PERFECTLY acceptable for developers to simply say "We aren't able to answer your question at this time", rather than dodge the question.  Being up front and saying "Sorry can't talk about that" is FAR better than dodging the question - which is shady.  

 

 

Oh, sorry, I guess I worded poorly.  That's kind of what I meant.  They are briefed on specifics they are not allowed to talk about.  Depends on the tact of the specific presenter, but yes, best option is to often say we can't discuss that.

 

 

My opinion on this, is that they feel a "I can't comment" will be interpreted as a "Yes, something is happening, just it is not the thing we want the hype focused on"

[Gundog8324 440]

 

If you look at the tournament lists, you see a very diverse mix of everything, not just new ships.  That right there is all you need to show that there is no power-creep.

 

Thats not what I see in the Regionals results thread.

 

 

Regionals suffers from being under the "ultra competitive/premiere" heading and skews results  people there are trying their best to win and if there is a 1% advantage in having a given build then everyone tries for that advantage creating a much larger perceived difference than under normal circumstances

[Gundog8324 440]

I think what was most disappointing to me and maybe a lot of other players who play mostly Imperials is that again we see the rebel ships get much more attention then the imperials. The rebels Already have a dramatic lead in choices of unique crew ,astromechs and synergistic pilots. The ability to customize with the rebels far exceeds what is available to the imperials at this point. Many imperials feel like we have one ship that just is not worth it in timed competitive play and that is represented by the fact that it is hardly ever seen being used. The imperial community resoundingly requests help in making this ship worth playing and it seems to fall on deaf ears. We are now at wave 6 and wave 4 ships are getting treatment before the tie advanced? I just don't get it.

 

 

I agree (and I prefer flying Imperials) but remember with very few exceptions Star Wars is based on the Rebels/New Republic and most of the backstory is based on them so they have the most background available to draw from, its 10x easier to use pre-existing fluff/lore than to create your own

 

Personally I think the chance to fix the Advanced could/should have been taken with Imperial Aces rather than a dual Interceptor pack they could have done a Interceptor/Advanced.  I like having 2 Interceptor Repaints but an Advanced fix might have been more enjoyable
 

[Knucklesamwich 802]

I think what was most disappointing to me and maybe a lot of other players who play mostly Imperials is that again we see the rebel ships get much more attention then the imperials. The rebels Already have a dramatic lead in choices of unique crew ,astromechs and synergistic pilots. The ability to customize with the rebels far exceeds what is available to the imperials at this point. Many imperials feel like we have one ship that just is not worth it in timed competitive play and that is represented by the fact that it is hardly ever seen being used. The imperial community resoundingly requests help in making this ship worth playing and it seems to fall on deaf ears. We are now at wave 6 and wave 4 ships are getting treatment before the tie advanced? I just don't get it.

I agree (and I prefer flying Imperials) but remember with very few exceptions Star Wars is based on the Rebels/New Republic and most of the backstory is based on them so they have the most background available to draw from, its 10x easier to use pre-existing fluff/lore than to create your own

Personally I think the chance to fix the Advanced could/should have been taken with Imperial Aces rather than a dual Interceptor pack they could have done a Interceptor/Advanced. I like having 2 Interceptor Repaints but an Advanced fix might have been more enjoyable

That would have been very well received.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Knucklesamwich

[Mirrimon 196]

 

 

If you look at the tournament lists, you see a very diverse mix of everything, not just new ships.  That right there is all you need to show that there is no power-creep.

 

Thats not what I see in the Regionals results thread.

 

 

Regionals suffers from being under the "ultra competitive/premiere" heading and skews results  people there are trying their best to win and if there is a 1% advantage in having a given build then everyone tries for that advantage creating a much larger perceived difference than under normal circumstances

 

When I am looking for balance of ships ideally I would have data where player skill was even. Higher stakes tournaments are the best I can get (especially the top third/top 8) since I can assume the player skill is roughly even towards the high end. Again balance comparisons are not about popularity. Since lists often have different ships and even if they have a common ship they have different upgrades/escorts I dont think a 1% difference could be accuratly measured. I strongly think it would not be magnified such that the TIE Advanced or A-Wing were at 0% representation in the upper end of lists if the difference was so minor.

 

I don't think the casual play balance is so bad, but it is very noticablly different in tournaments. Part of that is the metagame, but part of it is certain ships are much less efficient than others for their points.

 

I should add that I don't think there is much in the way of power creep (TIE Fighters are still very good), I took issue with the diversity in tournaments comment.