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Amroth

Is DH2 worth getting?

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I got rid of all my DH & BC books, to me the game system is just wayyyy to clunky and boring.  I really wish they would scrap the whole line and go with the Star Wars system for it, after playing that I haven't looked back, its more streamlined and easier to create characters and GM.  If it used that system I would gladly get back into the 40K line.

TOMATO TOMOTO. I agree the 1st edition wasn't my cup of tea.OW and BC did improve on the rules system and so far DH 2.0 seems to follow suit.With that being said I have been in a couple Star wars sessions.We had fun but the system wasnt for me.Personally there's nothing wrong with playing 40k with a different system as I do that often myself(savage worlds);but I really think if people like OW then they should really dig DH 2.0 IMHO.

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Really enjoying the adventure in the GM's kit. The layout is slightly confusing, but I enjoy how it provides you with a series of moments to assemble instead of a completely stock narrative. My only issue is that it doesn't really make it clear what clues the acolytes need to discover to get them investigating the location that leads them to the second part of the adventure, where it simply dumps information on the acolytes. A section of "Important clues for part X" to allow the GM to distribute throughout the part would be immensly helpful. It would fit well with the style of adventure in the book.

The content of the adventure is incredibly polished and is indicative of Dark Heresy's refined thematic direction. Honestly, it's so dripping with atmosphere that I feel like I need to run it in FATE to do it justice- which is what I'm doing tomorrow.

I think all of you can guess my opinions on the core rulebook- it's just not my cup of tea. The Askellon sector is neat, though.

Edited by Kainus

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Really enjoying the adventure in the GM's kit. The layout is slightly confusing, but I enjoy how it provides you with a series of moments to assemble instead of a completely stock narrative. My only issue is that it doesn't really make it clear what clues the acolytes need to discover to get them investigating the location that leads them to the second part of the adventure, where it simply dumps information on the acolytes. A section of "Important clues for part X" to allow the GM to distribute throughout the part would be immensly helpful. It would fit well with the style of adventure in the book.

The content of the adventure is incredibly polished and is indicative of Dark Heresy's refined thematic direction. Honestly, it's so dripping with atmosphere that I feel like I need to run it in FATE to do it justice- which is what I'm doing tomorrow.

I think all of you can guess my opinions on the core rulebook- it's just not my cup of tea. The Askellon sector is neat, though.

 

Can you elaborate on that "Atmospheric" bit? Like... the Call of Cthulhu in Space feeling that got lost after the power creep started?

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Really enjoying the adventure in the GM's kit. The layout is slightly confusing, but I enjoy how it provides you with a series of moments to assemble instead of a completely stock narrative. My only issue is that it doesn't really make it clear what clues the acolytes need to discover to get them investigating the location that leads them to the second part of the adventure, where it simply dumps information on the acolytes. A section of "Important clues for part X" to allow the GM to distribute throughout the part would be immensly helpful. It would fit well with the style of adventure in the book.

The content of the adventure is incredibly polished and is indicative of Dark Heresy's refined thematic direction. Honestly, it's so dripping with atmosphere that I feel like I need to run it in FATE to do it justice- which is what I'm doing tomorrow.

I think all of you can guess my opinions on the core rulebook- it's just not my cup of tea. The Askellon sector is neat, though.

 

Can you elaborate on that "Atmospheric" bit? Like... the Call of Cthulhu in Space feeling that got lost after the power creep started?

Err... it's less Lovecraftian and more Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs. You may have power in your authority over the Imperium, but there are certain places where the Imperial machine breaks down and is weaponized against itself by those with dubious personal motives.

The transition from lower hive to underhive nicely demonstrates the function of the adventure's setting as a cog in the Desoleum machine. There's a feeling of intense dehumanization that can be maximized at this part which, I feel, really speaks to the horror this edition of Dark Heresy wants to elicit.

While the adventure isn't entirely concerned with holding this note throughout, it's clear that the adventure is more of a sampling platter for the tone of Desoleum. You've got your social intrigue with loyal, criminal and maybe heretical organizations, a patch of horror, and a crunchy combat conclusion.

Basically, the adventure is very concerned with making you feel like you're in the depths of a hive- and it's atmosphere derives from that.

Just make sure that you have index cards with referece information for all of the fiddly bits of the system that actually grounds the atmosphere in the mechanics.

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I got rid of all my DH & BC books, to me the game system is just wayyyy to clunky and boring.  I really wish they would scrap the whole line and go with the Star Wars system for it, after playing that I haven't looked back, its more streamlined and easier to create characters and GM.  If it used that system I would gladly get back into the 40K line.

 

Trying to imagine the levels of problems that would evolve from using the Star Wars licensed system in a Games Workshop licensed game (Although I guess this already kind of happened between Warhammer Fantasy 3e and Star Wars). In any event, luckily there are two games (Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion) that already use the Star Wars system, so there is no shortage of options.

Edited by Vaeron

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My DH2 book arrived this weekend. It's like a piece of art.

 

Now, that I have vacation next week I got the time to add the missing Elite Advanced I will make for our DH Group, like Sororitas and Gunslinger etc.

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Ugh speak not the heresy of their star wars rpg. Biggest turd of an RPG ever. It doesn't do anything I don't as a GM and my players don't already. It felt like it was for... newbies. Very irritating. I've had the displeasure of playing and running it several times and each time I convince myself I'll like it. Each time I play it I learn to detest it a little more.

 

It's a shame since the art, production values of the physical book, and fluff is great. Such a waste. *sigh* It now also steals away a good chunk of 40k rpg support.

 

Edit

Every time I play the star wars RPG I feel like a ******* idiot. Seriously. My character seems like a barely competent mess. Trained to shoot like a pro and ends up screwing up all the time or just luckily getting by. In real life I hunt. I've got a 70% hit rate. I'm shooting tiny little game birds smaller than a persons head. I've only started shooting guns too. So I'm a newbie at it.

 

Then we go to the RPG. It's just too much a discrepancy from my own skills in real life vs this supposed adventurer who I out skill in every single way. It was too depressing. Many of my players felt likewise.

Edited by Gamgee

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Ugh speak not the heresy of their star wars rpg. Biggest turd of an RPG ever. It doesn't do anything I don't as a GM and my players don't already. It felt like it was for... newbies. Very irritating. I've had the displeasure of playing and running it several times and each time I convince myself I'll like it. Each time I play it I learn to detest it a little more.

 

It's a shame since the art, production values of the physical book, and fluff is great. Such a waste. *sigh* It now also steals away a good chunk of 40k rpg support.

 

Edit

Every time I play the star wars RPG I feel like a ******* idiot. Seriously. My character seems like a barely competent mess. Trained to shoot like a pro and ends up screwing up all the time or just luckily getting by. In real life I hunt. I've got a 70% hit rate. I'm shooting tiny little game birds smaller than a persons head. I've only started shooting guns too. So I'm a newbie at it.

 

Then we go to the RPG. It's just too much a discrepancy from my own skills in real life vs this supposed adventurer who I out skill in every single way. It was too depressing. Many of my players felt likewise.

 

How's that specific to Star Wars though? I mean, every Dark Heresy character starts off with a hit-rate of 40% or lower, and that includes Guardsmen or Arbites who are professionally trained. 

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Every time I play the star wars RPG I feel like a ******* idiot. Seriously. My character seems like a barely competent mess. Trained to shoot like a pro and ends up screwing up all the time or just luckily getting by. In real life I hunt. I've got a 70% hit rate. I'm shooting tiny little game birds smaller than a persons head. I've only started shooting guns too. So I'm a newbie at it.

 

Then we go to the RPG. It's just too much a discrepancy from my own skills in real life vs this supposed adventurer who I out skill in every single way. It was too depressing. Many of my players felt likewise.

 

This is dumb and wrong.  Starting EotE characters are going to be rolling 2 yellow + 1-2 green on whatever skill they're built for and that's a **** good dice starting dice pool. In the example of shooting normal targets you're looking at 2-3 purple and are much more likely to succeed than to fail. Even more likely if you aim (+1/2 blue). Then for things you're bad at you're rolling only 1-2 green, which yeah, isn't great, but that's what destiny is for. Flip one and all the sudden you might roll triumph doing a thing you suck at. Even on a 2 purple roll you're still more likely to succeed than fail with just a base roll.

 

I'm not sure how a game not reflecting your real-world capabilities is a criticism of the game.

 

It now also steals away a good chunk of 40k rpg support.

I'm not sure how much support is needed for a game that, mechanically, hasn't really changed since BC came out.

 

How's that specific to Star Wars though? I mean, every Dark Heresy character starts off with a hit-rate of 40% or lower, and that includes Guardsmen or Arbites who are professionally trained.

 

This isn't totally right. You might start with BS40, but with just an aim action (+10/20), single shot (+10) and a laser sight (+10) you're looking at 80% before any range modifiers. Pretty **** good

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Trying to imagine the levels of problems that would evolve from using the Star Wars licensed system in a Games Workshop licensed game (Although I guess this already kind of happened between Warhammer Fantasy 3e and Star Wars). In any event, luckily there are two games (Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion) that already use the Star Wars system, so there is no shortage of options.

 

The system is entirely FFG's and it's creator, not GW and Disney's as far as I am aware. Shouldn't be any licence issue using them (ok, there may be something if the licences mention anything about being compatible with other systems and the two were fully compatible).

 

Err... it's less Lovecraftian and more Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs. You may have power in your authority over the Imperium, but there are certain places where the Imperial machine breaks down and is weaponized against itself by those with dubious personal motives.

The transition from lower hive to underhive nicely demonstrates the function of the adventure's setting as a cog in the Desoleum machine. There's a feeling of intense dehumanization that can be maximized at this part which, I feel, really speaks to the horror this edition of Dark Heresy wants to elicit.

From my reading so far the whole setting feels just a little too "Grimdark" and flat out crazy. I know 40k is grimdark and crazy, but most of the time this is in broad strokes. The Calxisis sector at least usually felt like you could imagine people living a day to day life there. It would be very different from ours and weird and grim, yes, but you could imagine it. Looking at the stuff I have read too far the Askellon sector just feels like it couldn't work. Everything is too oppressive, too epic in scale (planet's full of 2000 ton cows? What?), too weird. Every single goddamn planet is about to collapse under some crisis that is building etc.

 

Don't get me wrong, some of it is quite interesting, but it basically feels like a later John Blanche painting in word form. Yes, his style is very evocative of the weirdness and horror of the setting, but it isn't actually how things would appear, as human beings simply don't work that way.

 

 

Every time I play the star wars RPG I feel like a ******* idiot. Seriously. My character seems like a barely competent mess. Trained to shoot like a pro and ends up screwing up all the time or just luckily getting by. In real life I hunt. I've got a 70% hit rate. I'm shooting tiny little game birds smaller than a persons head. I've only started shooting guns too. So I'm a newbie at it.

 

Then we go to the RPG. It's just too much a discrepancy from my own skills in real life vs this supposed adventurer who I out skill in every single way. It was too depressing. Many of my players felt likewise.

 

This is dumb and wrong.  Starting EotE characters are going to be rolling 2 yellow + 1-2 green on whatever skill they're built for and that's a **** good dice starting dice pool. In the example of shooting normal targets you're looking at 2-3 purple and are much more likely to succeed than to fail. Even more likely if you aim (+1/2 blue). Then for things you're bad at you're rolling only 1-2 green, which yeah, isn't great, but that's what destiny is for. Flip one and all the sudden you might roll triumph doing a thing you suck at. Even on a 2 purple roll you're still more likely to succeed than fail with just a base roll.

 

How's that specific to Star Wars though? I mean, every Dark Heresy character starts off with a hit-rate of 40% or lower, and that includes Guardsmen or Arbites who are professionally trained.

 

This isn't totally right. You might start with BS40, but with just an aim action (+10/20), single shot (+10) and a laser sight (+10) you're looking at 80% before any range modifiers. Pretty **** good

 

I have not actually had a change to play the Star Wars game, but I played Warhammer 3rd. Now, they changed the dice significantly (the purple dice from that were much more punishing than the opposing dice seem to be in Star Wars), but I remember a problem where average characters (those with 3 stat + 1 skill) could not reliably achieve average results (beat a difficulty of 2 purple dice). Then after about Rank 2 suddenly everyone was too competent and never failed at anything unless ridiculous levels of difficulty were thrown at them.

 

I also don't like the combat system (which hasn't changed that much, except that the number of dice has been kept slightly more under control), or at the very least it is bad for Star Wars. In the system people avoid damage by being hard, as the increase in defence that someone can get don't match the increasing levels of offensive ability characters get as they improve. Eventually (actually quite quickly) it doesn't become a matter of if you get hit, but how badly, so you want to be hard (heaviest armour, biggest toughness/brawn stat) to avoid dying. While that was ok for Warhammer, it just doesn't fit the feel of Star Wars, where characters don't wear the heaviest armour they can find and tend to avoid damage by avoiding getting hit (in fact armour seems to matter little).

 

I certainly don't see an issue with the base to-hit chance of Dark Heresy. 30-40% to hit as base? That's fine. Most shots fired in combat miss, especially if not carefully aimed, which the basic attacks don't represent. As you say, you can build up all sorts of bonuses through advantages and you get much better hit chances. The real issue is that these difficulties were applied across all tasks and stats, and it was much easier to go bonus hunting in combat than outside combat.

Edited by borithan

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In terms of an upgrade from DH1? Definitely. It's just better, it's so much smoother. No more rank system, no more insane psychic powers. You can make "explain what you think you are" very easily. Want a commisar? Highborn/Shrine World, Imp Guard, Heirophant. Excetra. I like the aptitude system because it means anyone can get anything if they're willing to spend the xp.

 

Some people might disagree because they don't feel it's too much of a change from more recent games, and that's a legitimate thing except I really only judge it based on it's previous edition.

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Edit

Every time I play the star wars RPG I feel like a ******* idiot. Seriously. My character seems like a barely competent mess. Trained to shoot like a pro and ends up screwing up all the time or just luckily getting by. In real life I hunt. I've got a 70% hit rate. I'm shooting tiny little game birds smaller than a persons head. I've only started shooting guns too. So I'm a newbie at it.

 

Then we go to the RPG. It's just too much a discrepancy from my own skills in real life vs this supposed adventurer who I out skill in every single way. It was too depressing. Many of my players felt likewise.

 

Seems to me you have about 30 BS with DH system.

 

Full round (6s) aim +20 + Single shot +10 + close range +10 + 30 BS = 70

or you can even have 20 BS if aiming from accurate weapon.

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Some people might disagree because they don't feel it's too much of a change from more recent games, and that's a legitimate thing except I really only judge it based on it's previous edition.

This has come up many times over the past few months, but the issue for people who weren't happy with the beta wasn't that it wasn't different, but that it wasn't better. What we got was a system we'd already seen with only nominal improvements. In particular, there are much better ways to accomplish this:

 

anyone can get anything if they're willing to spend the xp.

 

Also it's "et cetera", from the Latin, "and the other stuff". Sometimes abbreviated etc. (not 'ect.', not ETC, and not repeated etc.etc.etc.).

 

Stuff

 

I haven't played the WHF game, so I can't comment on the differences.

 

In EotE, the good dice have more good things on them than the bad dice have bad things on them, so even on an equal pool you're more likely to succeed. The most die you'll ever be rolling is maybe 10-12, I think. And that's a dramatic roll. It's a pretty solid system.

 

From my experiences with combat (which we don't do a whole lot of), armor isn't essential - getting shot will hurt anyway. Talents and the situation (cover, environmental effects) are more important. Fights tend to end quickly, too.  I have a player who's built for shooting and he is a monster when he gets set up right. He's not much use outside a fight though, and other players have those bases covered.

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CPS, that's largely the community's fault. I know you remember the uproar a bit of them put up at the first iteration of the beta, which was very different from what we were used to. Not stating merits or faults I think it was alright it just needed some tweaking which some in the community are actively doing from what I understand.

 

However I don't heavily play only war or black crusade, so I haven't seen that system. It's basically new for me, and that makes 2nd edition worth getting if you're uprading from first edition.

 

I didn't say ect. so I'm not sure why you quoted me twice, maybe it was the wrong bit?

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CPS, that's largely the community's fault. I know you remember the uproar a bit of them put up at the first iteration of the beta, which was very different from what we were used to. Not stating merits or faults I think it was alright it just needed some tweaking which some in the community are actively doing from what I understand.

 

However I don't heavily play only war or black crusade, so I haven't seen that system. It's basically new for me, and that makes 2nd edition worth getting if you're uprading from first edition.

 

I didn't say ect. so I'm not sure why you quoted me twice, maybe it was the wrong bit?

 

You tried to spell out et cetera and got it wrong. People get it creatively wrong all the time in the forms I listed - I wasn't accusing you of making that particular mistake.

 

I think you're conflating the reaction people had to the original beta and to its current form. Initially there was a large backlash because the game was not backwards compatible, because it was different. The current crop of discontents, largely, take issue with the fact that the game is mostly the same as what we already have and see the edition as a wasted opportunity to make the game better.

 

But it is as you say: if you liked OW or haven't played the system before DH2 might be worth getting. The first post in this thread basically answers the OP.

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I have a general distaste for games that use proprietary dice. They always seem like an unnecessary complicated method to achieve the same outcome that standard dice would otherwise achieve. When I first heard of DH2.0 it was the first thing I checked - would this be like WFRP 3rd was to 2nd, where everything changed and not even the dice were the same.

Thankfully they avoided that.

BYE

Edited by H.B.M.C.

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I have a general distaste for games that use proprietary dice. They always seem like an unnecessary complicated method to achieve the same outcome that standard dice would otherwise achieve. When I first heard of DH2.0 it was the first thing I checked - would this be like WFRP 3rd was to 2nd, where everything changed and not even the dice were the same.

Thankfully they avoided that.

BYE

 

I felt the same way about EotE until I tried it. Now I love it. It's a really well designed system, and it gives a lot of narrative just from rolling the dice in a way that no other system I've played does. Give it a shot. Money well spent, in my mind.

 

Also it's really weird to me that you end all of your posts with BYE.

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I have a general distaste for games that use proprietary dice. They always seem like an unnecessary complicated method to achieve the same outcome that standard dice would otherwise achieve. When I first heard of DH2.0 it was the first thing I checked - would this be like WFRP 3rd was to 2nd, where everything changed and not even the dice were the same.

Thankfully they avoided that.

BYE

Go ask a hundred people on the street what a d10 is and see how many people are going to be able to answer you. Anything that's not a d6 is also a proprietary die for the majority of people. When it comes to dice, my favorite irony is that people who need to buy their dice from specialty hobby shops like to complain about the FFG dice being too out there.

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Go ask a hundred people on the street what a d10 is and see how many people are going to be able to answer you. Anything that's not a d6 is also a proprietary die for the majority of people. When it comes to dice, my favorite irony is that people who need to buy their dice from specialty hobby shops like to complain about the FFG dice being too out there.

1. I don't much care what "people on the street" think about dice.

2. Do you know what I mean by proprietary dice? That is to say dice that are specific for one thing, and could not serve a purpose outside of that one thing.

3. I never complained that the dice were "too out there". What I said was I find them unnecessary as I've never seen a system that couldn't be just as easily replicated with regular types of dice. They act like an extra layer of obfuscation.

BYE

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Go ask a hundred people on the street what a d10 is and see how many people are going to be able to answer you. Anything that's not a d6 is also a proprietary die for the majority of people. When it comes to dice, my favorite irony is that people who need to buy their dice from specialty hobby shops like to complain about the FFG dice being too out there.

1. I don't much care what "people on the street" think about dice.

2. Do you know what I mean by proprietary dice? That is to say dice that are specific for one thing, and could not serve a purpose outside of that one thing.

3. I never complained that the dice were "too out there". What I said was I find them unnecessary as I've never seen a system that couldn't be just as easily replicated with regular types of dice. They act like an extra layer of obfuscation.

BYE

1. And here we have the reason why this is a niche hobby with very little money behind it.

2. Do you know why proprietary means? It doesn't mean task-specific. And again, dice with symbols are no more mono-task than dice with numbers. You're free to make up different rules for what symbols mean.

3. It could easily be suggested that having to add a bunch of modifiers is more complicated and convoluted than just matching and canceling out symbols. Hell, symbol matching is probably closer to normal human processes in the first place.

It's okay to just say you don't like new things, you know.

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Guys chill. We're all allowed an opinion. Go ask a hundred people on the street at Gencon and you'll have a different percentage than a hundred people on a different street.

 

We all know dice with symbols are made so the company in question can sell those dice specifically to make a little more cash. You can make your own with bank dice, or just assign numbers to symbols. It doesn't really matter.

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