Leebo + Determination

[Mace Windu 1,173]

Not 100% sure on the timing of things so thought I would ask around.

 

If Leebo has Determination can he chose which Crit to take then potentially discard it with determination?

 

Card texts:

 

Leebo:

When you are dealt a faceup Damage card, draw 1 additional Damage card, choose 1 to resolve, and discard the other.

 

Determination:

When you are dealt a faceup Damage card with the Pilot trait, discard it immediately without resolving its effect.

 

both trigger at the same time and I assume you get to choose which one resolves first?

Edited August 12, 2014 by Mace Windu

[Parravon 5,217]

When you have two abilities that trigger at the same time, you get to choose the order, but you must resolve them both if they are mandatory (don't feature the word "may"). As Leebo doesn't have a choice (his text doesn't have "may"), you must take two cards and choose one. If you get a Pilot card, choose that one and then discard it with Determination. 

[Mace Windu 1,173]

I guess my main concern was the, now quite ambiguous, wording on determination that mentions immediately, both effects start with the term "When you are dealt a face up damage card".

 

my concern would be that determination might not work if the first card drawn was not a "Pilot" Crit. 

 

I guess we will wait till it comes out and see it the FAQ it.

[SableGryphon 2,847]

I guess my main concern was the, now quite ambiguous, wording on determination that mentions immediately, both effects start with the term "When you are dealt a face up damage card".

 

my concern would be that determination might not work if the first card drawn was not a "Pilot" Crit. 

 

I guess we will wait till it comes out and see it the FAQ it.

We might see a FAQ, but it's pretty straightforward and we have other precedent (Chewy + Determination for instance). Both are in effect at the moment the ability is triggered. As above, if you choose the Pilot crit, you can then discard it with Determination.

Edited August 12, 2014 by SableGryphon

[Sergovan 1,440]

You have two ways of resolving the dealt face up card. You get to choose either Determination first to resolve or Leebo's pilot ability to resolve first.

 

If you resolve Leebo's pilot ability first, you get dealt an additional face up card, one of which you'll pick and keep, the other face up card gets discarded. Then Detemination kicks in on the left over face up card as it is the card now dealt (see Fettigator regarding resolving same time triggers) and if it is a pilot crit you get to discard it.

 

If you resolve Determination first, you discard the face up card if it is a pilot crit, but then Leebo's ability kicks in and you now deal another face up card, and since you already discarded one it becomes the one you now keep, unless it is also a pilot crit then you get to discard that one to.

 

I suggest using the first example when using this combo as you can set up Determination with it and have a better choice of what crit you get to keep..

[Parravon 5,217]

Determination is only going to kick in on being dealt a damage card with the Pilot trait, so that one is pretty straight forward, but you must still meet Leebo's ability requirements. And as Sergovan pointed out, if you use Determination on the first card dealt, which happens to be a Pilot card, and discard it, you haven't met the requirements for Leebo. Deal another faceup card and keep it.

It's logical to go with Leebo first, to give you the choice of the two cards, then Determination if you can.

[Mace Windu 1,173]

Determination is only going to kick in on being dealt a damage card with the Pilot trait, so that one is pretty straight forward, but you must still meet Leebo's ability requirements. And as Sergovan pointed out, if you use Determination on the first card dealt, which happens to be a Pilot card, and discard it, you haven't met the requirements for Leebo. Deal another faceup card and keep it.

It's logical to go with Leebo first, to give you the choice of the two cards, then Determination if you can.

 

Don't get me wrong I totally expect this to be the way it is intended however how Leebo's effect works muddies the waters.

 

your first line there is the give-away:

 

"Determination is only going to kick in on being dealt a damage card with the Pilot trait"

 

Now with Leebos effect you are dealt Damage card "A" however his effect allows you to Draw Damage card "B" and choose which effect is to be resolved.

 

So if you choose damage card "B" as your selection, you were not dealt that damage card and potentially may not be able to use Determination.

 

Again I'm not disagreeing with anyone I'm simply pointing out the exact wording on the cards and how they may not work in terms of RAW but FFG may have intended to work the way we hope.

[Sergovan 1,440]

So the question becomes if a drawn card is the same as a dealt card as it pertains to the game rules?

 

I just had this happen in another thread where I pointed out that rerolling no dice was the same as rerolling 0 dice.

 

I'll fire this off to Frank for a response.

[Sergovan 1,440]

Sent to Frank:

 

"Leebo's pilot ability and Determination both trigger from when a face up damage card is dealt.

 

Can Leebo choose one of the two face up cards to keep, and if it is a pilot crit, then discard it using Determination or does the drawn card not count as a card dealt?"

[Parravon 5,217]

Well, my money is on "a drawn card is the same as a dealt one" in this scenario. You're effectively being dealt two cards with the option to accept the least damaging one. In which case Determination should be able to be used on a Pilot card.

If Frank comes back with "you can use Determination on the dealt card but not the drawn card", I'll be extremely surprised.

 

@Sergovan: You should have asked him about the "is a no-dice reroll still considered a reroll?" while you were at it. 

[Slugrage 5,011]

I'd very much like it if Leebo gets to pick which of the cards to discard, and then use Determination on the (possible) Pilot card so it's effectively no damage taken. If Leebo is stuck with being forced to draw and action a second card after Determination could toss a Pilot card, that'd suck.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Slugrage

[DR4CO 6,234]

 

Sent to Frank:

 

"Leebo's pilot ability and Determination both trigger from when a face up damage card is dealt.

 

Can Leebo choose one of the two face up cards to keep, and if it is a pilot crit, then discard it using Determination or does the drawn card not count as a card dealt?"

 

 

Just as a warning to everyone: we may have to wait a little while for an answer, if the policy of not answering questions regarding unreleased items holds true.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I think it's also interesting that Leebo's ability explicitly tells you to resolve the card you choose.

 

So if you use Leebo first, you draw the second card, flip it up, make your choice, and resolve it.  Now Determination tells you to discard the dealt card - but it's already resolved.

 

Honestly, this one's just a mess.

[Bjorn Rockfist 525]

I think it's also interesting that Leebo's ability explicitly tells you to resolve the card you choose.

 

So if you use Leebo first, you draw the second card, flip it up, make your choice, and resolve it.  Now Determination tells you to discard the dealt card - but it's already resolved.

 

Honestly, this one's just a mess.

 

Leebo's card is worded thusly - When you are dealt a faceup Damage card, draw 1 additional Damage card, choose 1 to resolve, and discard the other.

 

It says to choose 1 to resolve....not resolve it.

[Parravon 5,217]

And how is that different? If you're not going to resolve "it", what are you going to resolve?

[Buhallin 4,563]

It says to choose 1 to resolve....not resolve it.

 

Uhm...  so you make your choice - you pick one of the two cards to resolve.

 

What comes next?

[StevenO 2,996]

I'm not sure of the specifics but I strongly suspect you should be able to discard a pilot critical with the Leebo/Determination combo and avoid keeping a card.

[Bjorn Rockfist 525]

 

It says to choose 1 to resolve....not resolve it.

 

Uhm...  so you make your choice - you pick one of the two cards to resolve.

 

What comes next?

 

 

Once you make your choice of which to resolve, but before you "resolve" it Determination triggers and can discard it if it's a pilot trait.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Bjorn Rockfist

[dbmeboy 807]

For fun: Leebo vs Maarek Stele.  That's a timing mess too.

[Parravon 5,217]

Which is pretty much what I said two weeks ago, Bjorn. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by Parravon

[Tuls 215]

OK maybe I'm missing something. But is there a Pilot Damage Card that would have anything that could be resolved before determination discarded it. 

[dvorm 1,058]

For fun: Leebo vs Maarek Stele.  That's a timing mess too.

I suppose the timing resolves via initiative.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

For fun: Leebo vs Maarek Stele.  That's a timing mess too.

I don't see any timing issues.

 

Maarek happens first. 

Maarek has a replacement effect that triggers when he deals a faceup card.

Maarek draws three cards and chooses which one he wants to deal to Leebo. 

That card gets dealt to Leebo.

Leebo triggers upon being dealt the card decided by Maarek.

Leebo draws another card and then he gets to choose which one to resolve.

[Parravon 5,217]

And if he's got Determination, yadda, yadda, yadda... 

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

 

It says to choose 1 to resolve....not resolve it.

 

Uhm...  so you make your choice - you pick one of the two cards to resolve.

 

What comes next?

 

 

Once you make your choice of which to resolve, but before you "resolve" it Determination triggers and can discard it if it's a pilot trait.

 

There's nothing in Leebo's text that would cause Determination to trigger midstream like that.  And that's assuming that Leebo "deals" a card at all, which I'm not sure it does.  Since Maarek came up, he provides an interesting counterpoint for terminology.  Maarek clearly deals a card, so if you're feeling generous and hand a Determined pilot a pilot crit, it's dealt and would trigger Determination.  Leebo does say to pick a card to be dealt, or pick a card and deal it to your ship - it says resolve it.

 

I don't know if that's a meaningful difference in terminology, but it's certainly a difference.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Buhallin