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dark curse and target lock

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I'm flying Hobbie + R3A2 and I just target locked Dark Curse (forgot about his ability). 

 

Can I still use Hobbie's ability and spend my target lock to remove a stress?  Dark curse's ability doesn't say I can't spend my target lock -- only that I can't reroll dice. 

 

 

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I would say no, as you spend the TL to give you the opportunity to reroll attack dice. It doesn't matter if you choose to reroll "0" dice, as Dark Curse says you can't reroll attack dice, and that would include "0" dice. The same goes for spending a focus on him. You simply can't, whether you're changing "0" dice or not.

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If you reroll zero dice, have you rerolled any dice?

It's like a zen koan, but should answer the question. Dark Curse says you can't reroll attack dice. So long as you don't reroll any dice, his ability is satisfied.

This isn't the same as the offensive side of things. If you cap'n reroll any dice, zero is a number that satisfies that. But logically, things get ugly if you prohibit that. Think about it: Dark Curse says you can't reroll zero dice. Or one die. Or two. How does that work, exactly?

So to summarize, DC has nothing that stops you from spending the target lock to reroll no dice, because otherwise he creates a paradox that sucks us all into a universe-ending black hole.

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I agree with Paravon. The rules for target lock amd focus do not say if you spend them you 'may' re-roll or change dice, so its not optional. Based on this and the faq, gou must choose a number of dice to re-roll, and 0 is a legitimate number. Dadk Curse will stop this.

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Actually "any" doesn't mean more than zero. The rules for target locks state "...choose any number of attack dice and reroll them once...". And the FAQ says you can choose to modify none if you wish. Therefore "any" can include zero.

 

Here's something to ponder:

In the FAQ under the Damage Cards section, "A ship with Blinded Pilot assigned to it must perform an attack in order to flip this card facedown. A ship with Blinded Pilot assigned to it may still use abilities that trigger after performing an attack, such as Darth Vader, Gunner, and Luke Skywalker, even though no attack dice are rolled."

So, in this event you run through all the steps, but roll no dice, but it's still considered an attack for the purpose of triggering other abilities. 

You can spend a focus token and modify no results, but it still counts as spending a token and can trigger other abilities (but not on Dark Curse, obviously).

You can spend a TL and reroll no dice, which counts as spending the TL, but is the ability it grants you of rerolling dice still considered a "reroll" if you rerolled no dice?

I know Dark Curse doesn't prohibit spending the TL, but he does prohibit a reroll. Can you spend the TL and choose not to reroll, even if it is "0" dice, just for the sake of gaining the spend qualifier for triggering another ability?

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No, target lock isnt optional, you must reroll dice, dark curse stops this.

 

TL is not a must, it is completely optional how many dice you roll. "he may return his pair of assigned target lock tokens to the action token supply to choose any number of attack dice and reroll them once." Rulebook page 11. 

 

But you are allowed to spend the TL tokens and reroll 0 dice with a TL. FAQ page 8:

 

 

When attacking, players may spend focus tokens or target locks and elect not to modify any attack dice. When defending, players may spend focus tokens and elect not modify any defense dice and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

 

This still fulfills Dark Curses ability. His ability only works by blocking the reroll of one or more dice.

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You can spend a TL and reroll no dice, which counts as spending the TL, but is the ability it grants you of rerolling dice still considered a "reroll" if you rerolled no dice?

I know Dark Curse doesn't prohibit spending the TL, but he does prohibit a reroll. Can you spend the TL and choose not to reroll, even if it is "0" dice, just for the sake of gaining the spend qualifier for triggering another ability?

So we're solid that you can't reroll any dice.  Cool.

 

Let's say I have a target lock with Han and make an attack.  I use my target lock, but don't reroll any of my dice.  Now I use Han.  Which dice does Han reroll?  Or let's say I have Krassis with Jonus.  Krassis rerolls die 1 - which dice can I reroll with Jonus?  Just because an ability gives you the option to reroll, the dice doesn't count as rerolled if you don't actually choose to reroll it.  In no way is it rerolled.

 

The "any" argument is misplaced here.  For one, Dark Curse doesn't have that wording - he just says you can't reroll dice.  But more importantly, it works for a choice, but not a prohibition.  If it did and "any" includes zero, Dark Curse prevents you from rerolling zero dice.  Think about that: Dark Curse says you cannot reroll zero dice.  In other words, Dark Curse forces you to reroll some number of dice which isn't zero - but he doesn't allow that, either.  Again, universe-ending paradox.

 

No, target lock isnt optional, you must reroll dice, dark curse stops this.

I have no idea where you're coming up with this.  There is plenty of precedent that "choose any number of" includes zero.  Target lock is optional to spend, and the number to reroll is a choice as well.

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Or you guys could read the FAQ

"spending tokens

When attacking, players may spend focus tokens or target locks and elect not to modify any attack dice. When defending, players may spend focus tokens and elect not modify any defense dice and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results."

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Or you guys could read the FAQ

"spending tokens

When attacking, players may spend focus tokens or target locks and elect not to modify any attack dice. When defending, players may spend focus tokens and elect not modify any defense dice and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results."

None of which is actually the question at contention here (with the exception of godofcheese's confusion).

 

The question isn't whether you can roll zero dice - I think most people realize that's an option - the question being raised is whether Dark Curse affects you in some way when you do so.

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You can spend a TL and reroll no dice, which counts as spending the TL, but is the ability it grants you of rerolling dice still considered a "reroll" if you rerolled no dice?

I know Dark Curse doesn't prohibit spending the TL, but he does prohibit a reroll. Can you spend the TL and choose not to reroll, even if it is "0" dice, just for the sake of gaining the spend qualifier for triggering another ability?

So we're solid that you can't reroll any dice.  Cool.

 

Let's say I have a target lock with Han and make an attack.  I use my target lock, but don't reroll any of my dice.  Now I use Han.  Which dice does Han reroll?  Or let's say I have Krassis with Jonus.  Krassis rerolls die 1 - which dice can I reroll with Jonus?  Just because an ability gives you the option to reroll, the dice doesn't count as rerolled if you don't actually choose to reroll it.  In no way is it rerolled.

 

The "any" argument is misplaced here.  For one, Dark Curse doesn't have that wording - he just says you can't reroll dice.  But more importantly, it works for a choice, but not a prohibition.  If it did and "any" includes zero, Dark Curse prevents you from rerolling zero dice.  Think about that: Dark Curse says you cannot reroll zero dice.  In other words, Dark Curse forces you to reroll some number of dice which isn't zero - but he doesn't allow that, either.  Again, universe-ending paradox.

 

No, target lock isnt optional, you must reroll dice, dark curse stops this.

I have no idea where you're coming up with this.  There is plenty of precedent that "choose any number of" includes zero.  Target lock is optional to spend, and the number to reroll is a choice as well.

You have not followed me through the tread. Tl isnt optional, if you spend the tokens, you MuST choose dice to reroll (zero is a valid number) and then re-roll them. If you choose 0, you MUST reroll 0 dice, but dark curse stops this, as you cant reroll.

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You have not followed me through the tread. Tl isnt optional, if you spend the tokens, you MuST choose dice to reroll (zero is a valid number) and then re-roll them. If you choose 0, you MUST reroll 0 dice, but dark curse stops this, as you cant reroll.

 

Dark Curse does not say you can nor spend a target lock. He also does not say you can't modify dice. He says you can't spend Focus tokens, and reroll the dice.

 

So you can use Marksmanship to modify dice. And from the FAQ it clearly states you can spend a Target Long and opt not to reroll the dice. Nowhere does it say you MUST choose dice to reroll. The FAQ actually states the exact opposite.

 

So your argument is not valid. 

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You have not followed me through the tread. Tl isnt optional, if you spend the tokens, you MuST choose dice to reroll (zero is a valid number) and then re-roll them. If you choose 0, you MUST reroll 0 dice, but dark curse stops this, as you cant reroll.

 

Formal math isn't your strong suit, is it?

 

So Dark Curse won't let you reroll zero dice.  He won't let you reroll one die.  He certainly won't let you reroll two dice.  Five is right out.  If you can't reroll any number of dice, including zero, what number can you pick that will let you progress?

 

Dark Curse does not say "you may not reroll any dice", he says simply "you may not reroll dice".  If you reroll zero dice, you have not rerolled dice.

Edited by Buhallin

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You have not followed me through the tread. Tl isnt optional, if you spend the tokens, you MuST choose dice to reroll (zero is a valid number) and then re-roll them. If you choose 0, you MUST reroll 0 dice, but dark curse stops this, as you cant reroll.

 

Formal math isn't your strong suit, is it?

 

So Dark Curse won't let you reroll zero dice.  He won't let you reroll one die.  He certainly won't let you reroll two dice.  Five is right out.  If you can't reroll any number of dice, including zero, what number can you pick that will let you progress?

 

Dark Curse does not say "you may not reroll any dice", he says simply "you may not reroll dice".  If you reroll zero dice, you have not rerolled dice.

 

 

Now that I'm back home and not looking after 100 kids on a school camp and doing this on my phone after midnight, I can now hopefully be clearer....

 

Firstly, I'll ignore the personal attack, because that is out of character for you Buhallin.

 

If you read the target lock rules, there is no may, in other words, if you spend a target lock, you must re-roll dice. They have since clarified that 0 is a valid choice (rightly in my opinion), and so accrodingly with the rules, you re-roll 0 dice.

 

If you are arguing that that re-rolling 0 dice is not rolling dice, then you cannot complete a target lock action, which is contrary to the posted FAQ.

Edited by godofcheese

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If you read the target lock rules, there is no may, in other words, if you spend a target lock, you must re-roll dice. They have since clarified that 0 is a valid choice (rightly in my opinion), and so accrodingly with the rules, you re-roll 0 dice.

 

If you are arguing that that re-rolling 0 dice is not rolling dice, then you cannot complete a target lock action, which is contrary to the posted FAQ.

 

Rerolling zero dice is, in fact, not rerolling any dice.  But it's still a valid number to choose when you're picking the number you want to reroll because of the "any".  Zero dice isn't a valid choice because rerolling zero counts as rerolling - it's valid because you can reroll "any" number of dice.  Rerolling zero dice is "rerolling any number of dice" and "rerolling no dice" at the same time.

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