Corran Horn vs. Corran Horn

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Activation Phase, Page 7:

"Breaking Ties

When multiple ships have the same pilot skill value,

the player with initiative must activate all of his

ships with that pilot skill first."

 

Combat Phase, Page 10

If both players have ships with the same pilot skill

value, the player with initiative resolves

his ships’ combat steps first (see “Initiative” and

“Simultaneous Attack Rule” on page 16).

 

So that's the two of the four phases in the Core Rules where in both cases, only if the ships have the same pilot skill does it come down to a question of initiative. In the case of the other two phases, there's no discussion of how anything is resolved. To my mind, the fact that it's two phases that do specify how things are done, trumps the other two phases where no discussion is had.

I'm still unclear as to why we would think otherwise that in the case of a mirror match with dual Corran Horn's with different pilot skills would ignore that in favour of a pure initiative bid?

 

By choosing to cut only part of the Initiative wording as was done above, it changes the situation. However, in the full text on page 16, the second paragraph makes the statement that only when ships of the same pilot skill are activated does initiative come into play. If both pilots had the same PS, then I'd agree that initiative is the defining factor.

Page 16 (bolding mine)

Initiative

One player always has initiative, a distinction used

to resolve timing conflicts. Unless using the squad

building rules (see page 18), the Imperial player

has initiative. Initiative remains with a player and

does not change during the game.

 

When ships of equal pilot skill value are activated,

the player with initiative activates all of his ships

with that pilot skill value first. Then the opposing

player activates his ships. Initiative also applies

during the Combat phase; the player with initiative

resolves combat steps for his ships with that pilot

skill value before his opponent (see “Simultaneous

Attack Rule” above).

If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the

player with initiative resolves his abilities first.

 

So even on the Initiative rules on page 16, it states clearly (to me) that it only enters play - regardless of phase here as it's a general rule - only if pilot skill is equal.

 

 

 

You realize you quoted yet ignored the relevant rules text, which I've emphasized for you.  We are talking about an ability after all.

[Bilisknir 443]

Same goes for simultaneous fire.  If two Corrans are facing off and the first shot kills the second Corran, he's dead - the ship is removed immediately and can't make an attack.  Simultaneous fire doesn't come into play.  Copying the full rule:

 

Except of course we have the prior ruling of Gunner/Vader suicide shuttles (and checking for destruction before activating prior triggered abilities). The simultaneous fire rules do not come into effect, so no point bringing them up.

At the beginning of the end phase both players get a chance to activate their Corran. Now as to whether initiative or Pilot skill determines firing order is mostly irrelevant, BOTH get to attack. Even if the first attack kills the second Corran, because the ship has already activated on the trigger of beginning of the end phase it gets to attack.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Same goes for simultaneous fire.  If two Corrans are facing off and the first shot kills the second Corran, he's dead - the ship is removed immediately and can't make an attack.  Simultaneous fire doesn't come into play.  Copying the full rule:

Except of course we have the prior ruling of Gunner/Vader suicide shuttles (and checking for destruction before activating prior triggered abilities). The simultaneous fire rules do not come into effect, so no point bringing them up.

At the beginning of the end phase both players get a chance to activate their Corran. Now as to whether initiative or Pilot skill determines firing order is mostly irrelevant, BOTH get to attack. Even if the first attack kills the second Corran, because the ship has already activated on the trigger of beginning of the end phase it gets to attack.

The Vader/Gunner/Simultaneous situation is different. In that case, the Simultaneous Fire rules is already in effect - it's been triggered by the destruction of the ship in the combat phase. If it hadn't already been active, the ship would have been removed before attacking.

Again, the issue here is that the Simultaneous Fire rule never comes into effect at all, so a ruling about how you resolve abilities that trigger for the lingering ship isn't really relevant.

[VanorDM 11,599]

If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the player with initiative resolves his abilities first.

Yeah that pretty much nails it. It's an ability you're using in the end phase, the fact that it's an attack doesn't change how things work. So the player with init goes first.

[Bilisknir 443]

 

 

Same goes for simultaneous fire.  If two Corrans are facing off and the first shot kills the second Corran, he's dead - the ship is removed immediately and can't make an attack.  Simultaneous fire doesn't come into play.  Copying the full rule:

Except of course we have the prior ruling of Gunner/Vader suicide shuttles (and checking for destruction before activating prior triggered abilities). The simultaneous fire rules do not come into effect, so no point bringing them up.

At the beginning of the end phase both players get a chance to activate their Corran. Now as to whether initiative or Pilot skill determines firing order is mostly irrelevant, BOTH get to attack. Even if the first attack kills the second Corran, because the ship has already activated on the trigger of beginning of the end phase it gets to attack.

The Vader/Gunner/Simultaneous situation is different. In that case, the Simultaneous Fire rules is already in effect - it's been triggered by the destruction of the ship in the combat phase. If it hadn't already been active, the ship would have been removed before attacking.

Again, the issue here is that the Simultaneous Fire rule never comes into effect at all, so a ruling about how you resolve abilities that trigger for the lingering ship isn't really relevant.

 

I'm not talking about Vader gunner simultaneous fire. But suicide Vader on 1 hull remaining Shuttle. You shoot, miss, trigger Vader and Gunner. Use Vader, take 2 damage. Gunner activates. Ship should be dead because you have sustained damage more than hull value. But because the activation of Gunner has already happened you get to shoot with gunner again. (Note you can't use Vader the second time round).

So this matches that situation, both Corran's activate at the beginning of the end phase. The fact the one to fire first destroyed the other doesn't stop the one shooting second from firing back!

 

Now I think we may see a FAQ on this to mean the higher PS pilot shoots first. But till then initiative is the sensible way to resolve.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I'm not talking about Vader gunner simultaneous fire. But suicide Vader on 1 hull remaining Shuttle. You shoot, miss, trigger Vader and Gunner. Use Vader, take 2 damage. Gunner activates. Ship should be dead because you have sustained damage more than hull value. But because the activation of Gunner has already happened you get to shoot with gunner again. (Note you can't use Vader the second time round).

 

So this matches that situation, both Corran's activate at the beginning of the end phase. The fact the one to fire first destroyed the other doesn't stop the one shooting second from firing back!

 

Now I think we may see a FAQ on this to mean the higher PS pilot shoots first. But till then initiative is the sensible way to resolve.

Hm.  Good point.  I see where you're coming from now.  I was focused on the (very incorrect) Simultaneous Fire argument, and didn't realize you were arriving at the same point from a different direction.  My bad on that.

 

And I think I agree with you on it.  There's not a lot of other precedent for it, but at least based on that it seems that abilities that are in-flight when a ship is destroyed resolve before it's removed.  Now that it's tickling my memory I seem to recall that we came to that conclusion previously, too.

 

<sigh>  I'd give actual body parts (unimportant ones, mind you, but I've got an appendix for the cause!) if they'd just give us decent true rules like "If a ship is destroyed, all triggered abilities resolve before removing it".

 

I do disagree on the PS, though.  There's absolutely nothing in the rules that even suggests PS should matter, and no reason that it should other than people kinda want it to.  It's certainly worth an FAQ to correct that, but bringing PS into what is a simple ability resolution would be a bad idea.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I'd give actual body parts (unimportant ones, mind you, but I've got an appendix for the cause!)

So you're saying you'd give an appendix for an appendix of rules?

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

I'd give actual body parts (unimportant ones, mind you, but I've got an appendix for the cause!)

So you're saying you'd give an appendix for an appendix of rules?

 

LOL.  I'd prefer an actual full rewrite, but if the clever repetition makes it more likely, so be it!

[Parravon 5,217]

Well, I checked the inbox this morning and Frank has answered the question. Some may be surprised. Some were correct. Some were almost there.

 

Rule Question:
In a mirror match where two players are fielding Corran Horn.
Player A has Corran with Veteran Instincts (PS10).
Player B has Corran (PS8), but has initiative also.

In the End Phase, both Corrans are in a position to shoot each other.
Who goes first and why?

The player with initiative (player B). This is similar to two ships that both have the “Damage Cockpit” Damage card (where both ships have pilot skill reduced to “0”).

 

So the mention of the Damage Cockpit card brought Pilot Skill back into the equation, so I asked:

OK, but do both ships get to fire? If Player B destroys Player A, does A get a return shot?

 

And Frank replied:

"Yes. Simultaneous Attack Rule still applies. Both players need to declare their intentions to attack (or not) at the start of the End phase before either ship has attacked."

 

So it seems Bilisknir hit the nail on the head. Both abilities trigger at the same time, so both resolve fully, regardless of whether one is destroyed before it gets to fire.

[Slugrage 5,011]

Good to know! Thanks for checking Parravon!

So first the initiative player has to declare if they're firing or not, allowing the player without initiative to decide to fire or not in return, which they more than likely would just in case they get blown up. Neat.

[Parravon 5,217]

And they both blow each other to smithereens! No more Corran clone. Which one was the real one, anyway?

[dmborque 38]

So in the end it looks like we solved it correctly during our game session (believe it or not it happened to me, in two of the three matches I played that day against different players)

 

Well, thanks to all the people who took their time to read and post their thoughts on this topic and to Frank for clarifying it!

[Parravon 5,217]

That's why we're all here. To bounce these ideas around and learn from each other.

[Buhallin 4,563]

And Frank replied:

"Yes. Simultaneous Attack Rule still applies. Both players need to declare their intentions to attack (or not) at the start of the End phase before either ship has attacked."

 

So the "Simultaneous Attack Rule still applies" even though it's not in the combat phase and the two pilots in the example have different PS values?  How exactly does that work, since literally none of the conditions for the Simultaneous Attack rule apply?

 

<facepalm>

 

I think Frank hadn't had his coffee for the day yet, but whatever.

[Parravon 5,217]

I think it's the mechanic of the destroyed ship gets it's return shot. PS seems to factor out of the equation here as it's not used during the End phase and both trigger at the same time. Made me sit and think for moment, too. Maybe Frank's drinking decaf. On the plus side, when I questioned his initial response, I got a reply within 5 minutes.

The hairy thing is, the OP copped this in two out of three of his games. Yikes.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Parravon

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

Not surprised in the least, hopefully this also extinguishes any ideas that rules can just be carried over from phase to phase without being expressly written.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Not surprised in the least, hopefully this also extinguishes any ideas that rules can just be carried over from phase to phase without being expressly written.

Since I thought we had put that idea to bed with the "Can't look at your dial outside the planning phase" bit, I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

That "simultaneous fire" solution between pilots that don't have the same PS is disconcerting, to say the least...

 

So, the explanation is that Corran's ability is treated like a 'damaged cockpit' card... MmmmwellyesOk... I'll try to remember it...

[VanorDM 11,599]

I don't get the simultaneous fire ruling either. Trying to think of logic why it would work this way, but nothing I can come up with makes any more sense then the ruling does. The best I can come up with is fairly flimsily justification after the fact.

[Aminar 1,949]

I don't get the simultaneous fire ruling either. Trying to think of logic why it would work this way, but nothing I can come up with makes any more sense then the ruling does. The best I can come up with is fairly flimsily justification after the fact.

As mentioned earlier, it isn't really simultaneous fire. It's an already existing triggered ability that has to be resolved. Simultaneous fire is a set of rules that describes the same situation and so is used as a basic summary of what to do.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It's an already existing triggered ability that has to be resolved.

I get that, but why does both ships get to preform an action if one of them is destroyed?

If say I destroy Airen before he gets to attack he can't give out a free action to another ship. So why does Corran get to declare his action regardless of what else happens? I mean in the combat phase, you preform your actions one ship at a time in PS and then Init order, why does it work differently in the end phase?

Is there something special about the end phase that lets anyone who can preform an action in it, be able to do so regardless of what else happens? Does the damage dealing steps simply not happen like normal?

Frank says this...

Both players need to declare their intentions to attack (or not) at the start of the End phase before either ship has attacked

But there is nothing in the rules that I know of that works like that right now. At no other point in the game does everyone declare actions simultaneously... The only time such a thing happens, if the action is triggered by another action, like say Draw their Fire or Determination.

Corran's attack isn't triggered by another attack, it's triggered by the end phase starting. I guess perhaps that trigger means both ships have the opportunity to declare that action before either action is resolved...

[Sergovan 1,440]

VDM, think of it like this:

 

If an ability is triggred then it is in queue to happen and will need to be resolved. If two opposing ships have the same triggering conditions then you resolve one then the other, based on initiative.

 

S.T. works this way. If two players have it then the player with intiative declares who will use it first, and the second player then determines his. The second player has more of an advantage in that he sees how the other S.T. will be applied before he makes his decision. Both are triggered at the same time, at the start of the Combat Phase.

[VanorDM 11,599]

If two opposing ships have the same triggering conditions then you resolve one then the other, based on initiative.

That actually makes sense to me. The fact that both ships have the same trigger, allowing them both the opportunity to respond to that trigger before going on to the next step.

So even though you resolve them in init order, both actions have entered the queue and both get to resolve.

[Bilisknir 443]

 

It's an already existing triggered ability that has to be resolved.

I get that, but why does both ships get to preform an action if one of them is destroyed?

If say I destroy Airen before he gets to attack he can't give out a free action to another ship. So why does Corran get to declare his action regardless of what else happens? I mean in the combat phase, you preform your actions one ship at a time in PS and then Init order, why does it work differently in the end phase?

 

Of course if you destroy Airen with a ship of the same PS he DOES get to give a free action to another ship. Since SF says he is alive till his attack is finished and his skill triggers off the attack.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Of course if you destroy Airen with a ship of the same PS he DOES get to give a free action to another ship.

Sure, but you're dealing with ships of the same PS, which specifically was not true in this case.

If it was a question of PS8 Corran vs PS8 Corran, I'd say the answer would be quite obvious. But when you have a PS10 vs PS8 Corran, that changes things. Or at least that was my original interpretation.

But the more I think about it, the more the idea that any action that can trigger off the same event, goes off makes sense.