Corran Horn vs. Corran Horn

[dmborque 38]

Yesterday we had this doubt in our gaming session:

 

- Player A had Corran Horn with Veteran Instincts (PS10)

- Player B had Corran Horn (PS8)

 

Player B won iniciative.

 

Then, on one round, both Corran Horns ended front to front. And here came the doubt.

 

In the final phase:

 

1. who has to declare first if his Corran Horn is going to shoot again?

2. if both choose to attack in the end phase, what is the correct attack order? are these two attacks considered simultaneous?

 

We decided to solve issue #1 similar to what is done with swarm tactics: the player with iniciative has to declare it first.

 

But on issue #2 we reached no consensus.The "highest PS" rule is true for the Attack Phase, but is also true in the End Phase? Or should we consider both attacks simultaneous, and in this case the player with initiative shoots first?

 

Is there already a FAQ or at least a consensus on this point?

 

Thanks for reading!

David

[StephenEsven 632]

I would say that initiarive ia the secising factor. Since it is not the combat phase PS doea not decide the order.

But since thay are at different PS values I would not treat it as simultaneous attacks.

In the ens that means that PS 8 Corran gets first **** due to initiative, and if he kills PS 10 Corran he soes not get to retaliate.

[Parravon 5,217]

Seeing as their attacks both happen at the start of the End Phase, I would kind of overlap it with the Combat Phase rules and go with highest PS shoots first. Initiative should only enter into the equation, when the PS is equal, so I wouldn't run on Initiative order either.

I wouldn't consider both attacks to be simultaneous, because the Simultaneous Attack rule only kicks in where the PS is equal and one ship gets destroyed, and here it is not. 

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

Seeing as their attacks both happen at the start of the End Phase, I would kind of overlap it with the Combat Phase rules and go with highest PS shoots first. Initiative should only enter into the equation, when the PS is equal, so I wouldn't run on Initiative order either.

I wouldn't consider both attacks to be simultaneous, because the Simultaneous Attack rule only kicks in where the PS is equal and one ship gets destroyed, and here it is not. 

 

You can't just add rules from other phases because you think it makes sense.  Combat and Activation phase both deal with PS, but the End phase does not.  At the beginning on the end phase you have 2 ships that have abilities that are triggering at the same time.

 

What do we do when 2 ships have abilities that trigger at the same time?  Initiative goes first.

 

Find me one example in this game where PS breaks a tie when 2 abilities activate at the same time.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Cptnhalfbeard

[Slugrage 5,011]

I'd agree with Parravon here.

 

Higher PS dictates who would get to go first in my mind, for both questions.

[Slugrage 5,011]

Initiative only comes into play to dictate who gets to go first when PS is equal, such as simultaneous attack. If two ships have differing PS, there's no question of who gets to go first and initiative never comes into play.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

 

You can't just add rules from other phases because you think it makes sense.  Combat and Activation phase both deal with PS, but the End phase does not.  At the beginning on the end phase you have 2 ships that have abilities that are triggering at the same time.

 

What do we do when 2 ships have abilities that trigger at the same time?  Initiative goes first.

 

Find me one example in this game where PS breaks a tie when 2 abilities activate at the same time.

 

What do we do when 2 ships have an attack opportunity? PS takes precedence. This is a tricky one, as Corran is the only pilot that can attack in the End Phase, but how often is he likely to be attacking a clone of himself? Or a lesser skilled clone of himself?

Yes, they both have the same ability trigger moment, but you absolutely have to add rules from the combat phase, as there's no rules for conducting an attack in the End Phase. It makes no sense to ignore the combat rules.

[Aminar 1,949]

From a strictly rules as written state it is determined by intitiative. There is no precedence for using Pilot Skill as a tiebreaker in simultaneous trigger activation. Howlrunner passing swarm tactics doesn't happen before a BSP's wingman or anything like that(Not that the order would matter) The player with initiative goes first.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Aminar

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

 

 

 

You can't just add rules from other phases because you think it makes sense.  Combat and Activation phase both deal with PS, but the End phase does not.  At the beginning on the end phase you have 2 ships that have abilities that are triggering at the same time.

 

What do we do when 2 ships have abilities that trigger at the same time?  Initiative goes first.

 

Find me one example in this game where PS breaks a tie when 2 abilities activate at the same time.

 

What do we do when 2 ships have an attack opportunity? PS takes precedence. This is a tricky one, as Corran is the only pilot that can attack in the End Phase, but how often is he likely to be attacking a clone of himself? Or a lesser skilled clone of himself?

Yes, they both have the same ability trigger moment, but you absolutely have to add rules from the combat phase, as there's no rules for conducting an attack in the End Phase. It makes no sense to ignore the combat rules.

 

 

But this is not an attack opportunity.  This is an ability that is triggering.  The result of that ability does not matter.

 

From the rules:

"If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the 

player with initiative resolves his abilities first."

 

I don't see how it can get any clearer than that.

 

Also from the rules

"Combat Phase

During this phase, each ship may perform one attack 

against one enemy ship that is inside its firing arc 

and within range. Starting with the ship with the 

highest pilot skill,"

 

Note the bolded "during this phase".  That means the rules for Combat only apply to the Combat phase.  These rules do not govern the entire game.

 

As the rules are written, Corren v Corran would happen in initiative order, not PS.  Unless they add verbiage to the ability or FAQ his ability, this is how it is written in the rules.

 

I would love to see some quotes from the rules that support your point of view, because just saying "this is how I would play it" is not enough.

 

Edit: and no, it does not make sense to "add the rules from combat phase" - changing the verbiage of the rules is breaking the rules.  end of discussion.

 

Edited August 11, 2014 by Cptnhalfbeard

[Plainsman 1,002]

An attack is combat! see pg 10 of the rules, first paragraph. Corran's card says perform an "attack." This combat is occurring in the end phase is all that is different. Hence, go back to the combat phase and follow those steps. Like many of the others above have said, go by the PS accordingly!

Edited August 11, 2014 by Plainsman

[DR4CO 6,234]

An attack is combat! see pg 10 of the rules, first paragraph. Corran's card says perform an "attack." This combat is occurring in the end phase is all that is different. Hence, go back to the combat phase and follow those steps. Like many of the others above have said, go by the PS accordingly!

 

You're missing the point. Yes, Corran's ability tells you to perform an attack, but that little detail is meaningless for this discussion. What matters is in which order we should resolve the two abilities, and as others have shown, the rules tell us to do that with initiative. It doesn't matter if those abilities want to generate tokens, allow actions, or (in this instance) cause attacks.

Edited August 11, 2014 by DR4CO

[Plainsman 1,002]

An attack is combat! see pg 10 of the rules, first paragraph. Corran's card says perform an "attack." This combat is occurring in the end phase is all that is different. Hence, go back to the combat phase and follow those steps. Like many of the others above have said, go by the PS accordingly!

 

You're missing the point. Yes, Corran's ability tells you to perform an attack, but that little detail is meaningless for this discussion. What matters is in which order we should resolve the two abilities, and as others have shown, the rules tell us to do that with initiative. It doesn't matter if those abilities want to generate tokens, allow actions, or (in this instance) cause attacks.

i see what you are saying...however, in this case they are attacking each other and they would declare attacks by initiative, then carry out the attacks by PS. If both were the same PS, then initiative comes into play.

since, this is strictly a Corran vs Corran thing, its not likely to happen often, esp. given there are so few Rebels in this area.

[Tuls 215]

Can't wait for a new FAQ for this one.

 

When I first read the OP I thought highest PS shoots first. Makes the most sense. But then I see the ability rules info and that makes sense also.

 

As for what I would do from now till FAQ clears it up would be simultaneous. That way I don't get use to having it one way ot the other.

[DR4CO 6,234]

 

 

An attack is combat! see pg 10 of the rules, first paragraph. Corran's card says perform an "attack." This combat is occurring in the end phase is all that is different. Hence, go back to the combat phase and follow those steps. Like many of the others above have said, go by the PS accordingly!

 

You're missing the point. Yes, Corran's ability tells you to perform an attack, but that little detail is meaningless for this discussion. What matters is in which order we should resolve the two abilities, and as others have shown, the rules tell us to do that with initiative. It doesn't matter if those abilities want to generate tokens, allow actions, or (in this instance) cause attacks.

i see what you are saying...however, in this case they are attacking each other and they would declare attacks by initiative, then carry out the attacks by PS. If both were the same PS, then initiative comes into play.

since, this is strictly a Corran vs Corran thing, its not likely to happen often, esp. given there are so few Rebels in this area.

 

No, you would resolve one ability entirely (ie. perform and complete the attack) before you move on to the next one. So the player with initiative goes first, decides yes, he would like to use his Corran's ability, and does so, attacking the opposing Corran. When that attack finishes, the player without initiative gets his turn and, assuming his Corran survived, gets to choose whether or not he would like to make an attack. The Pilot Skill of the two Corrans never comes into consideration.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

I have to agree with Draco and halfbeard. RAW is pretty clear that the abilities trigger off initiative. If both players have ships with

"At the beginning of the end phase you may X"

There isn't any question. Player with initiative resolves his ability (fully), then the other player. The fact that, in this case, "X" is "make an attack" doesn't really alter that.

Now, I agree it probably SHOULD resolve in PS order, I would probably even argue to play it that way among friends, but it don't think it really does, not until the FAQ or errata it.

[Slugrage 5,011]

Activation Phase, Page 7:

"Breaking Ties
When multiple ships have the same pilot skill value,
the player with initiative must activate all of his
ships with that pilot skill first."

 

Combat Phase, Page 10

If both players have ships with the same pilot skill
value, the player with initiative resolves
his ships’ combat steps first (see “Initiative” and
“Simultaneous Attack Rule” on page 16).

 

So that's the two of the four phases in the Core Rules where in both cases, only if the ships have the same pilot skill does it come down to a question of initiative. In the case of the other two phases, there's no discussion of how anything is resolved. To my mind, the fact that it's two phases that do specify how things are done, trumps the other two phases where no discussion is had.

I'm still unclear as to why we would think otherwise that in the case of a mirror match with dual Corran Horn's with different pilot skills would ignore that in favour of a pure initiative bid?

 

By choosing to cut only part of the Initiative wording as was done above, it changes the situation. However, in the full text on page 16, the second paragraph makes the statement that only when ships of the same pilot skill are activated does initiative come into play. If both pilots had the same PS, then I'd agree that initiative is the defining factor.

Page 16 (bolding mine)

Initiative
One player always has initiative, a distinction used
to resolve timing conflicts. Unless using the squad
building rules (see page 18), the Imperial player
has initiative. Initiative remains with a player and
does not change during the game.
 

When ships of equal pilot skill value are activated,
the player with initiative activates all of his ships
with that pilot skill value first. Then the opposing
player activates his ships. Initiative also applies
during the Combat phase; the player with initiative
resolves combat steps for his ships with that pilot
skill value before his opponent (see “Simultaneous
Attack Rule” above).

If multiple abilities resolve at the same time, the
player with initiative resolves his abilities first.

 

So even on the Initiative rules on page 16, it states clearly (to me) that it only enters play - regardless of phase here as it's a general rule - only if pilot skill is equal.
 

Edited August 11, 2014 by Slugrage

[Parravon 5,217]

So, if we can't "add" the rules from the combat phase, just what rules are we using to carry out these "abilities"?

[DR4CO 6,234]

Activation Phase, Page 7:

"Breaking Ties

When multiple ships have the same pilot skill value,

the player with initiative must activate all of his

ships with that pilot skill first."

 

Combat Phase, Page 10

If both players have ships with the same pilot skill

value, the player with initiative resolves

his ships’ combat steps first (see “Initiative” and

“Simultaneous Attack Rule” on page 16).

 

 

 

Slight flaw in your logic here: we're not in the activation or combat phases, and we're not dealing with pilot skill at all. We're in the end phase, and we're trying to determine in what order two will abilities should resolve. The rules tell us to do that using initiative, and nothing else. What those abilities do is irrelevant.

[Parravon 5,217]

Ok, calm down folks. No point in bursting a blood vessel over it. I've sent the question to Frank, as I can see both sides here have valid points. I've asked who goes first and why, so we await a response.

[StephenEsven 632]

But why bother Frank when the quoted rules above quite clearly states that timing of two abilities is decided by initiative?

[Parravon 5,217]

But why bother Frank when the quoted rules above quite clearly states that timing of two abilities is decided by initiative?

Well clearly there's an argument for both sides here. So I'll let him decide.

[StephenEsven 632]

And if you argue the attack is not an ability, read Ship Card Anatomy on page 8.

[Parravon 5,217]

I'm not arguing it's not an ability, you seem to be arguing the ability is not an attack (in the normal sense).

[StephenEsven 632]

Which it is not. The ability allows you to at attack out of order. And this ability resolves in initiative order.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Wow.  So much wrong

 

An ability grants an attack, but you don't go back to the Combat Phase.  You just resolve an attack, which is defined as Steps 1-7.  Then you're done.  How exactly would you handle jumping to a different phase, anyway?  Would you continue from that point in the Combat phase?  Or would you time travel back to the End Phase after Corran was done?  And would you stay in the past until both Corrans had attacked?

 

FWIW, this is why there is errata defining an attack as being those seven steps.  When Gunner came around, "attack" was undefined, and ships just cycled through the seven steps repeatedly for the phase.  Now, the phase is that each ship gets one attack.  What's an attack?  Those 7 steps.  An attack is not inherently tied to the Combat phase at all.

 

Pilot skill never enters into it.  You have two abilities which trigger simultaneously.  If those abilities weren't attacks, would anyone consider that PS enters into it?

 

I like the idea (in the sarcastic sense of it being a novel argument) that because PS matters in the Activation and Combat phases, it must matter in the End Phase as well.  But which one matters?  Do we go up (per the Activation) or down (per the Combat)?  If two ships could take actions during the end phase, would we go up because that's an Activation thing, but attacks go down because that's a combat thing?  The argument actually defeats itself - the PS concern in the Activation and Combat phases MUST be restricted to their own phases, because otherwise they conflict with each other.

 

PS doesn't inherently order anything.  You're explicitly told how to order different things.  If it's activating ships during the Activation Phase, it's ascending pilot skill/initiative/player choice.  If it's combat, it's descending pilot skill/initiative/player's choice.  If it's two abilities that occur simultaneously, it's initiative/player's choice.

 

There's honestly no gray area there.

 

Same goes for simultaneous fire.  If two Corrans are facing off and the first shot kills the second Corran, he's dead - the ship is removed immediately and can't make an attack.  Simultaneous fire doesn't come into play.  Copying the full rule:

 

Although ships perform their attacks one at a time, ships with a pilot skill value equal to the active ship’s pilot skill value have the opportunity to attack before being destroyed.  If such a ship would be destroyed, it simply retains its Damage cards without being removed from the play area. It may perform an attack as normal during the Combat phase, although any faceup Damage cards just dealt to it may affect this attack.
After this ship has had its opportunity to attack this round, it is immediately destroyed and removed from the play area.

 

Two bolded blocks, three different reasons this doesn't apply:

1.  There is no active ship at this point (it's just an ability), so nothing to be equal to

2.  Even if it were considered equal, it just lets you attack as normal during the Combat phase, which we're not in