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Rimmer1

RoF

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Hello all

 

Simple house rule for wider consideration.

 

Semi - RAW + May not target more than one target, all shots must strike the same target. 

Full - RAW + May not strike the same target, all successful shots fired must strike a different target.

 

This was a simple addition to the rules one of my players suggested when during a break we were discussing the uselessness of semi auto vs full auto, assuming you had the option.

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DH2e changes the Ranged Attack Actions in the following ways:

Standard Attack

Type: Half Action

Subtype: Attack, Ranged (or Melee)

  • Make a BS Test +10 to Hit your target.
  • Success inflicts a single Hit
  • Hits are randomly allocated.
Semi-Auto Burst

Type: Half Action

Subtype: Attack, Ranged

  • Makes a BS Test +0 to Hit your target.
  • The BS Test has a 7% Jam chance (94+).
  • If the Attack is successful, you score 1 Hit, plus 1 Hit for every 2 DoS, up to the weapon's RoF.
  • All Hits are randomly allocated.
  • Hits beyond the first can be allocated to targets within 2 metres, provided they're no more difficult to Hit.
Full-Auto Burst

Type: Half Action

Subtype: Attack, Ranged

  • Makes a BS Test -10 to Hit your target.
  • The BS Test has a 7% Jam chance (94+).
  • If the Attack is successful, you score 1 Hit per DoS, up to the weapon's RoF
  • All Hits are randomly allocated.
  • Hits beyond the first can be allocated to targets within 2 metres, provided they're no more difficult to Hit.
I absolutely suggest adopting these changes. The change from Full- to Half-Actions alone makes combat roughly 371.2% better. Edited by Simsum
Darth Smeg likes this

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I just picked up a copy of "Only War" where these rules come from (BC also) and I do like them, but am unsure of how they will interact with current talents eg; dual shot, two weapon weilder, etc etc

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After using both rule sets, our group much prefers the DH2/BC/OW method to the old DH method. As stated before, half-action burst attacks make combat SO much better, since people can move around without wasting an entire turn of automatic fire. We've crunched the numbers and found that Full- and Semi-Auto still inflict more hits over an extended period than single shots, but if you only need to hit somebody once to finish them off the single shot gives you the best chance of success. This is a big difference from DH1, where the only reason to use anything but Full-Auto bursts whenever possible was ammunition concerns.

 

Also, Swift and Lightning Attack were changed to function as Semi-Auto and Full-Auto bursts for melee weapons, respectively. This makes melee so much more sensible, since a character actually has a chance to Parry all his enemy's attacks. It also works with dual-wielding melee weapons -- in other words, you can make a Lightning Attack with both weapons at once, and while it is strong it's entirely possible to miss with both "bursts" because of the -10 attack penalty.

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Hmm... the thing I'm trying out next campaign is...

 

Standard Attack +10, Half-Action

Semi-Auto +0, Half Action, every DoS is a hit

Full-Auto +20, every second DoS is a hit, includes pinning-effect, Full Action.

 

Not sure how that will pan out ultimately, might switch stuff around a bit, since Semi-Auto becomes pretty powerful compared to the good old Single Shot.

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After using both rule sets, our group much prefers the DH2/BC/OW method to the old DH method. As stated before, half-action burst attacks make combat SO much better, since people can move around without wasting an entire turn of automatic fire. We've crunched the numbers and found that Full- and Semi-Auto still inflict more hits over an extended period than single shots, but if you only need to hit somebody once to finish them off the single shot gives you the best chance of success. This is a big difference from DH1, where the only reason to use anything but Full-Auto bursts whenever possible was ammunition concerns.

 

Also, Swift and Lightning Attack were changed to function as Semi-Auto and Full-Auto bursts for melee weapons, respectively. This makes melee so much more sensible, since a character actually has a chance to Parry all his enemy's attacks. It also works with dual-wielding melee weapons -- in other words, you can make a Lightning Attack with both weapons at once, and while it is strong it's entirely possible to miss with both "bursts" because of the -10 attack penalty.

 

So Swift attack was half action and two swings with your chain sword, while lightning attack was also a half action but you got three swings ?

 

Did you add the -10% "full auto" penalty ?

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So Swift attack was half action and two swings with your chain sword, while lightning attack was also a half action but you got three swings ?

 

 

You're being too literal. An Attack Action is not a single swing with your sword, but represents a period of time spent engaged trying to penetrate your opponents defences. Swift Attack is not 2 swings, but represents a skilled warriors opportunities to create more openings in his enemy's defence to exploit.

 

Generally speaking, when two characters are  engaged,  they  are  exchanging  attacks,  Parries, Dodges, Feints and a number of other manoeuvres, all of which are rolled into the Standard Attack. - Dark Heresy, p191

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Hmm... the thing I'm trying out next campaign is...

 

Standard Attack +10, Half-Action

Semi-Auto +0, Half Action, every DoS is a hit

Full-Auto +20, every second DoS is a hit, includes pinning-effect, Full Action.

 

I still need to try "soft" gun-based increments some day, with a +2 bonus for every single bullet that leaves your barrel.
  • Half Action Single Shot: +0 BS
  • Half Action Semi-Auto: +0 BS
  • Full Action Semi-Auto: +2 BS per shot
  • Full Action Full-Auto: +2 BS per shot
This represents the fact that the first shot leaving the barrel should realistically have the same chance to hit the target regardless of how many additional rounds you fire, whilst every follow-up round would add a small bonus to hit based purely on chance. However, since the steps are not as big as in RAW, the bonus must not necessarily favour additional hits (a total of 4 shots only adds +8 to BS; not enough for a DoS if we assume equal dice rolls).
As a consequence, spewing bullets in Semi- and Auto Fire increases your general chance to hit, but is very inefficient as far as ammo-to-hit ratio is concerned.
 
Example: Boltgun with S/2/4 would have BS +0/+4/+8 respectively. An autogun with S/3/10 would give +0/+6/+20.
 
I have included Semi-Auto bursts as a Half and Full Action both, the former representing "shooting from the hip" where the shooter sacrifices the aim bonus for not taking the time to properly control their weapon.
 
The advantage of Standard Attack would be that it's only a Half Action, representing either a "snap shot" or an aimed attack (+10) if you couple it with the Aim action. The Half Action Semi-Auto burst fires more bullets, but given that it sacrifices the bonus to BS you just have a good chance of wasting ammo, so it's very situational.
 
I'm just undecided what to do about DoS. I like the difference between Semi- and Full Auto for a sense of realism and because it makes the two options more unique, but it seems to me that it'd be more intuitive to simplify it into a general "1 DoS = 1 Hit", regardless of the type of attack.
 
 
The potential advantages of this system are that it provides less of a harsh gap between RoF options and might make Auto-Fire less of a problem for some weapons (the bolter in particular had auto-fire taken away because it was considered too powerful with the old bonus). Additionally, it allows for greater uniqueness between individual gun models, as many weapons will now provide different BS bonuses due to their different rates of fire. There could also be traits and/or modifications or even special ammo types that change the bonus to, say, +1 or +3 per shot  (reflecting an increase or decrease in accuracy). For some weapons it could even be tied to the Strength of the shooter (recoil?).
 
All still very much theoretical at this point, though.
Edited by Lynata
Simsum and DarkForce2 like this

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Hmm... the thing I'm trying out next campaign is...

 

Standard Attack +10, Half-Action

Semi-Auto +0, Half Action, every DoS is a hit

Full-Auto +20, every second DoS is a hit, includes pinning-effect, Full Action.

 

I still need to try "soft" gun-based increments some day, with a +2 bonus for every single bullet that leaves your barrel.
  • Half Action Single Shot: +0 BS
  • Half Action Semi-Auto: +0 BS
  • Full Action Semi-Auto: +2 BS per shot
  • Full Action Full-Auto: +2 BS per shot
This represents the fact that the first shot leaving the barrel should realistically have the same chance to hit the target regardless of how many additional rounds you fire, whilst every follow-up round would add a small bonus to hit based purely on chance. However, since the steps are not as big as in RAW, the bonus must not necessarily favour additional hits (a total of 4 shots only adds +8 to BS; not enough for a DoS if we assume equal dice rolls).
As a consequence, spewing bullets in Semi- and Auto Fire increases your general chance to hit, but is very inefficient as far as ammo-to-hit ratio is concerned.
 
Example: Boltgun with S/2/4 would have BS +0/+4/+8 respectively. An autogun with S/3/10 would give +0/+6/+20.
 
I have included Semi-Auto bursts as a Half and Full Action both, the former representing "shooting from the hip" where the shooter sacrifices the aim bonus for not taking the time to properly control their weapon.
 
The advantage of Standard Attack would be that it's only a Half Action, representing either a "snap shot" or an aimed attack (+10) if you couple it with the Aim action. The Half Action Semi-Auto burst fires more bullets, but given that it sacrifices the bonus to BS you just have a good chance of wasting ammo, so it's very situational.
 
I'm just undecided what to do about DoS. I like the difference between Semi- and Full Auto for a sense of realism and because it makes the two options more unique, but it seems to me that it'd be more intuitive to simplify it into a general "1 DoS = 1 Hit", regardless of the type of attack.
 
 
The potential advantages of this system are that it provides less of a harsh gap between RoF options and might make Auto-Fire less of a problem for some weapons (the bolter in particular had auto-fire taken away because it was considered too powerful with the old bonus). Additionally, it allows for greater uniqueness between individual gun models, as many weapons will now provide different BS bonuses due to their different rates of fire. There could also be traits and/or modifications or even special ammo types that change the bonus to, say, +1 or +3 per shot  (reflecting an increase or decrease in accuracy). For some weapons it could even be tied to the Strength of the shooter (recoil?).
 
All still very much theoretical at this point, though.

 

 

Interesting Idea... really interesting Idea. About the DoS/Hit Ratio... yeah, equalizing it is probably the simplest solution, in which case you might even say, for example, "Inaccurate Weapons only gain an additional hit per two degrees of success" or something.

 

Overall, I'd say it does a good job at making Single/Semi/Full more situational trade offs. Which addresses the biggest problem, namely Full Auto being superior in most situations as long as you have enough ammo to dump.

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in which case you might even say, for example, "Inaccurate Weapons only gain an additional hit per two degrees of success" or something.

 

I like it. Thanks!  :D

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So Swift attack was half action and two swings with your chain sword, while lightning attack was also a half action but you got three swings ?

 

 

You're being too literal. An Attack Action is not a single swing with your sword, but represents a period of time spent engaged trying to penetrate your opponents defences. Swift Attack is not 2 swings, but represents a skilled warriors opportunities to create more openings in his enemy's defence to exploit.

 

Generally speaking, when two characters are  engaged,  they  are  exchanging  attacks,  Parries, Dodges, Feints and a number of other manoeuvres, all of which are rolled into the Standard Attack. - Dark Heresy, p191

 

 

Im am being deliberatly literal for clarity's sake. One roll of the dice, one swing etc.

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