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arunwe2012

Double Guarded Stance / Aim?

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Except for the fact in cases where effects from maneuvers and such carry over into other rounds it is specified and with Aim it isn't.  Read Guarded Stance, in AoR, then read Aim.  No mention of carry over with Aim which means you can't.  Plus, why would you even want to.  Two shots with a single Aim are vastly more productive than one shot with 2 Aims.

 

I am afraid I don't have AoR so i can't read it... does it specify GS can be performed in consecutive rounds?

 

Anyway, wanting (or not) to do it depends totally on the player. Maybe he prefers to be "extra" sure to hit and bets for a more prepared shot.

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GS effects carry over and it is specifically stated.

 

In regards to being sure, you understand that probability is cumulative.  In other words it makes more sense to pull the trigger twice.  Two attempts with a 15% chance of success are better than a single attempt with a 20% chance of success.  So it can't be done by RAW and it makes no sense mathematically.

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I believe you can aim over two rounds. While it doesn't specify that the boost die lasts for so and so long, it states that it provides a boost die to the next combat check (i.e. attack check), as long as you don't take damage beyond soak, moves or perform any other manoeuvre or action.

 

To me this means I can start the round by using an action to do whatever, then aim once. Next round, as long as I don't move and haven't been hit by an attack (or damaged) I can aim once more, then perform my combat check with two boost dice.

 

Now, whether this is statistically better or worse, is to me largely irrelevant.

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In my games we certainly play that you can indeed Aim twice in two consecutive turns.

 

For example, you could maneuver to get into position (or to take cover) and then convert your action to a maneuver and Aim. Then on your next turn you can Aim and then fire.

 

(Fixed, because if you're not taking an Action in a turn you don't need to spend strain to do a second maneuver)

Edited by progressions

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I believe you can aim over two rounds. While it doesn't specify that the boost die lasts for so and so long, it states that it provides a boost die to the next combat check (i.e. attack check), as long as you don't take damage beyond soak, moves or perform any other manoeuvre or action.

This is exactly right. The wording is "to the next combat check," not "to the next combat check in the same round."

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I just assume that since performing skill checks is an Action per RAW, and an initiative check occurs between the two rounds of combat, and skill checks are considered Actions, the initiative check constitutes an Action being taken and consequently you can't carry this maneuver over as it says no Actions can be performed prior to the combat check.

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We roll initiative every round, house rule, more closely resembles the unpredictability as well as ebb and flow of combat imo, so I guess that's on me and my interpretation.

Edited by 2P51

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Except Sam said in one of the podcasts you can do GS twice.

 

I confess I do have a problem then with the way they explain these rules.  Aim is called out for allowing "twice", GS is not.  Since words are at a premium in any rule book, that indicated to me that GS is handled differently from Aim in that regard.  And if you allow GS multiples, then by the same logic you could Aim as much as you want.  Which means Granny who never fired a gun can sit at the top of a tower and one-shot anything if she sits there aiming for 10 minutes.

 

Granted, they kind of go out of their way to never say "no" in this game.  Which means that RAW only "suggests" those limits but you can do what you want.  So if the story/narrative makes sense I might allow a 3rd Aim or a 2nd GS, but there would have to be a very good reason, otherwise for normal use I'd cap them at 2 and 1 respectively.

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I'm sorry 2P, but I see no need in rolling initiative every round...man that has to be time consuming. With the floating "slots" and PCs pick when they want to go in a round this really doesn't make sense to me. Also, by your logic, if rolling this is an action, and you roll it every round, then the characters can take no other actions...Ok, so what do you do this round? I roll for initiative and take my maneuver...

:)

 

I did not know about the AoR guarded stance double thing... I really need to get that book. I too run my double aiming as either in one round using 2 maneuvers at -2 strain, or they can spread the maneuvers over two consecutive rounds. So round 1, Action (shoot), Maneuver (1st aim for double aim); Second Round: Maneuver (for 2nd double aim), Action (Shoot). I do try to keep my battle environments moving, so typically people need to move about every other round, either due to the loss of cover, or the enemy moving out of range, or getting total cover. 

 

I have never thought about going beyond double aiming...You can only aim so much...

Edited by R2builder

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@2P51, to the problem at your table: an Action usually constitutes a skill check, but the inverse is not always true (Skill check = action). There are special instances in the rules, and especially in adventures, where a skill check is downgraded to a maneuver. 

To me, it's already ambiguous if rolling for initiative in an action. If you're houseruling that it happens every round, then I would definitely say it's not an action. It's an out-of-turn incidental. Continue aiming as appropriate across turns.

 

To the house rule specifically, I think the dynamic initiative system and the narrative dice already serve well to show the unpredictability of combat. IMO, this house rule makes your group miss out on the beauty that is the RAW initiative system. if it works for you and is more fun, then obviously you should keep doing it, but if it creates problems like this, then I would say an examination is in order.

 

 

Thankfully, the house rule in question is not an issue for most everyone else here :) So we can continue aiming across turns regardless.

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We roll initiative every round, house rule, more closely resembles the unpredictability as well as ebb and flow of combat imo, so I guess that's on me and my interpretation.

 

That sound really tedious, especially with the freeform initiative system of this game.

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You can perform 2 maneuvers in a turn, I think that covers it.

but you can aim across turns.

For example:

turn 1, maneuver_1:  ready your blaster. maneuver_2: Aim

turn 2, maneuver_1: Aim and then shoot, or keep aiming

 

When maneuvers or Talents or Skills carry over from one turn to the next it is specifically stated they do this. Aim does not state this.  No you can't.

 

 

That is your interpretation of something not appearing in the RAW.

 

Pg. 202 of the EotE CR

 

AIM

During combat, a character can use the Aim maneuver to steady a weapon or line up a hit before attacking, granting a bonus to his next combat check. A character only gains the benefit of aiming if he remains in his current position and does not perform any additional maneuvers or actions before his next combat check. Any damage that exceeds the character’s soak also negates the benefit of aiming.

 

It does not specify whether "his next combat check" happens this round or the next one. Actually the only limitation is "A character only gains the benefit of aiming if he remains in his current position and does not perform any additional maneuvers or actions before his next combat check." I don't see where your interpretation that it cannot be carried across a turn comes from.

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There would be absolutely no point to having the benefit of aiming be negated by damage taken if the benefits of aiming didn't last until the character's next turn. If you can't aim "across turns" then you will always fire on the same turn you aim, and never have the opportunity to take damage. Since aiming can be negated by taking damage, it follows that its benefits must last through other characters' turns.

 

As for aiming for a month in order to snipe Vader's bicuspid, I'd be very comfortable with a house rule that stated that a character can benefit from no more than X aim actions, where X equals their weapon skill level (with a minimum of two aiming actions for PCs, because everyone should be able to hit sometimes, man).

 

Also, Guarded Stance stacking seems like baloney, and determining initiative every round would make me want to shoot my foot off.

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If a player wants to aim for the entire fight to get that one perfect shot off I have no problem with that.

Makes perfect sense story-wise and as at lenght described rule-wise.

 

Double guarded stance is a more interesting question. EotE rulebook states:

 

"A character who performs this maneuver adds [setback] to any combat checks he makes until the end of his next turn. Howerever, he also gains melee defense 1 until the end of his next turn."

 

So that would be a No, (since it says gains defene 1, not one additional melee defense) but again, I have no problem with a player concentrating solely on defending against melee attack, bobing and weaving, dancing like a butterfly without stinging and so on.

 

We also house ruled that defense stacks. Depending very much on the situation, cause it can get pretty crazy fast. But why shouldn't some armored guy NOT benefit from standing behind a solid steel wall?

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It seems that you can, in fact, aim over two rounds, since, as Jegergryte mentioned, there'd be no way that damage could affect the maneuver if you always aimed and attacked on the same round.  The book is less clear on the max number of aims you can make, however.  Yes, it does state that "If the character spends two consecutive maneuvers aiming, he gains two boosts on the next combat check."  However, logically speaking, this does not explicitly state that you can't spend more than two consecutive maneuvers aiming, only that two maneuvers gets you two aims.  One could argue that, extrapolating this text, then three maneuvers would get you three aims, four gets you four aims, etc., since, as previously stated, you can, in fact, spend aim maneuvers over multiple rounds.

 

I'm not necessarily endorsing endless stacking of aims, mind you, I'm just saying that the RAW does not explicitly forbid you doing just that.

 

And as the pirate just said, AoR CRB says "+1 to melee defense" for Guarded Stance, while the EotE CRB says "melee defense 1".  This would seem to indicate that they had a change of heart for Guarded Stance, much like what they did with Cover, only the other way around (+1 ranged defense turned into a ranged defense of 1).  This could mean, then, that you can perform Guarded Stance twice, since you would benefit from each one rather than topping out at 1 melee defense as in EotE.  It wouldn't make sense to do it more than twice, since it only lasts until the end of your next turn.

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Pg. 202 of the EotE CR

 

AIM

During combat, a character can use the Aim maneuver to steady a weapon or line up a hit before attacking, granting a bonus to his next combat check. A character only gains the benefit of aiming if he remains in his current position and does not perform any additional maneuvers or actions before his next combat check. Any damage that exceeds the character’s soak also negates the benefit of aiming.

 

 

As aiming more than twice, I think there is a key part that I bolded above. How does one define "additional maneuvers"? To me, in this context, I take it as any maneuvers that are not the original Aim maneuver or the second maneuver expressly called out in the Aim rules. I'd say that starting a new Aim maneuver is an additional maneuver, and therefore would cancel the original Aim.

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I think it's reasonable for GMs to make a call about how much aiming is possible. If someone wants to spend 5 rounds not doing anything but aiming, they're certainly paying a cost in missed actions for that bonus, so IMO a GM would be within reason to allow it.

 

Personally I'd say that generally, 2 Aim maneuvers is about all you can benefit from, I just think that makes the game more interesting.

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There is observing a target and then there is aiming.  To me aiming involves taking up a good sight picture, getting your breathing right and applying good trigger technique.  It's not something you can just do as long as you like, and it actually doesn't get better the longer you do it.

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There is observing a target and then there is aiming.  To me aiming involves taking up a good sight picture, getting your breathing right and applying good trigger technique.  It's not something you can just do as long as you like, and it actually doesn't get better the longer you do it.

I agree with that, and it may be that the designers had the same in mind, capping the advantage dice at 2. Nevertheless it is as easy as asking through the official channel. I may do it when I feel less lazy :P

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Yeah it does seem the intent is that it's capped at 2 Boost. If you want more benefit from other maneuvers in previous turns, say if you're sniping an unaware target and trying to line up the perfect shot, you could take a couple ranks in Precise Aim. First do your Precise Aim maneuver to remove defenses, and then aim twice for some Boosting action. Might as well grab True Aim while you're at it...and Barrage.

 

A Force-Sensitive Assassin with Sense power tree maxed down the left side, Intense Focus, some good ranks in Ranged (Heavy), True Aim, Barrage, and Precise Aim...oh my. 

 

That'd be a sick dice pool.

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