Questions about "Roc" enemy, "Toadify!" spell and "Alchemist" character

[TiMBa 1]

Roc

It will remain here until it is killed. If you are defeated, in addition to losing 1 life, the Roc drops you in the Mountain Pass.

NOTE: The Adventure Card version of this card can only be used if the Highland board is in use.

 

Toadify

Cast on a creature or character you are about to engage in battle. Roll 1 die:

1) The Spell backfires and you are turned into a Toad for 3 turns

2-3) No effect

4-6) If cast on a creature, its Strength is reduced to 1 until the end of the turn. If cast on a character , he is turned into a Toad for 3 turns

 

Lucky Charm

You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it.

 

Misfortune

Cast on any character who is about to roll a die. That die automatically rolls a “1” result and cannot be rerolled.

 

Alchemist

Special Abilities

You begin the game with 5 gold.

During your turn, you may alchemise any Objects you have into gold. Discard the chosen Objects and gain 1 gold for each Object and 3 gold for each Magic Object.

During your turn, you may alchemise any gold you have into potions. For each gold you discard you may replenish 1 fate, heal 1 life, or gain 1 Spell, if your Craft allows. You may alchemise Objects into gold and alchemise gold into potions during the same turn.

 

 

1) If a character is killed by the Roc (happened to my friend twice in 2 different games), do all of his acquipment and followers are being moved along with his corpse to the "Mountain Pass"? I think they sould stay on the same spot he died cause it say on the card that "in addition to losing 1 life", which means first you die, 

 

2) I casted on my friend the Toadify spell and immediately used the Lucky Charm to choose the roll of 6. my friend had the Misfortune spell and claimed that he can use it on me to change my die roll to 1. He also said that i left him no time to react to the spell, but I said it was on purpose and I intended to do it quickly so he won't be able to shield himself. Was it OK to do so?

Also even if he could have change my die roll with the misfortune spell, I turned him into a toad before he could do so and as a toad he cannot cast any spells.

Another question in that manner - Can I use the Lucky Charm in order to change the Misfortune spell effects?

 

3) Can the Alchemist Character always heal life as long as he has gold? Isn't it too good?

Only if he does not have any objects or gold he can die.. It is too powerful..

Edited August 6, 2014 by TiMBa

[DomaGB 171]

I am no rule expert, but will give this a shot.

 

1. Interesting idea, but we like to keep things simple, I would say everything moves.

 

2. There have been some enlightening discussions on spells recently and it has been noted in recent discussions, that unfortunately that in some cases he who yells the fastest gets his spell off 1st. I am gonna guess this is one of those cases. Unfortunately there is no official fix for this. And it can be a sour point for Talisman. This is where a group that plays nice is best. I let things roll off my shoulders when bad things happen. Its just a game. And its Talisman.

 

3. its been noted time and time again the Alchemist is powerful, but most agree its still playable.

[Artaterxes 209]

Regarding your Toadify question, when multiple things can happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets priority. You should be allowed to play the Lucky Charm.

[The_Warlock 171]

1) If a character is killed by the Roc (happened to my friend twice in 2 different games), do all of his acquipment and followers are being moved along with his corpse to the "Mountain Pass"? I think they sould stay on the same spot he died cause it say on the card that "in addition to losing 1 life", which means first you die,

 

Your interpretation is correct. The other one is related to what should happen in reality (the Roc grabbing the corpse instead of the alive character) but the rules give clear instructions (page 5 "Losing all lives"):

 

Any character who loses all of his lives is immediately killed. All the character’s Objects, Magic Objects, Followers, and gold are placed on the space where the character was killed.

 

2) I casted on my friend the Toadify spell and immediately used the Lucky Charm to choose the roll of 6. my friend had the Misfortune spell and claimed that he can use it on me to change my die roll to 1. He also said that i left him no time to react to the spell, but I said it was on purpose and I intended to do it quickly so he won't be able to shield himself. Was it OK to do so?

Also even if he could have change my die roll with the misfortune spell, I turned him into a toad before he could do so and as a toad he cannot cast any spells.

Another question in that manner - Can I use the Lucky Charm in order to change the Misfortune spell effects?

 

This is a typical case where who speaks first, goes first. Unfortunately there's no procedure for "at any time effects" that can be satisfying for everyone. If you cast a Spell and immediately use the Lucky Charm, the only thing another player could do is to react with Counterspell, Reflection or Spell Scorch. Technically he should have done it first, but you didn't give him the time and couldn't do it. However, the Lucky Charm is not kept secret like a Spell, so saying you would like to use it and being unable to do it because of a Counterspell should not impact on the game too much. On the contrary, revealing a Misfortune Spell while not being able to cast it is worse. You uncovered a valuable weapon.

 

After the Lucky Charm has been used, the roll is skipped and you're not "about to roll a die" anymore, so no Misfortune can be cast.

 

On the other hand, you cannot use the Lucky Charm after Misfortune because the Spell makes the die roll 1 without the chance to reroll, so you cannot choose the result of a roll that has already happened.

 

So again, who goes first wins here. The "Simultaneous Effects" rule cannot be used to break the tie IMO, because the effects are not meant to happen "at the same time" and one makes the other unapplicable.

 

3) Can the Alchemist Character always heal life as long as he has gold? Isn't it too good?

Only if he does not have any objects or gold he can die.. It is too powerful..

 

His only limitation is that he can do this only during his turn. However, it's difficult to bring him down with a single strike, especially with the standard Crown of Command ending. This, combined with his still unsolved interactions with City Shops, makes him the most controversial character of Talisman 4th edition.

Edited August 7, 2014 by The_Warlock

[Artaterxes 209]

You sure the simultaneous effect rule doesn't apply? I want to play Lucky Charm; you want to play a spell. Seems pretty simultaneous to me. The only thing stopping you is revealing the spell.

One way around it is to always play spells facedown. You announce that you want to play a spell, and put it facedown. I, the active player, now can do anything; if I don't, you reveal the spell and cast it. If I do something (eg use Lucky Charm) you can put the spell back into your hand.

[chemical22 69]

 

This is a typical case where who speaks first, goes first. Unfortunately there's no procedure for "at any time effects" that can be satisfying for everyone. If you cast a Spell and immediately use the Lucky Charm, the only thing another player could do is to react with Counterspell, Reflection or Spell Scorch. Technically he should have done it first, but you didn't give him the time and couldn't do it.

 

 

I've never thought this through very well, but now that I have read through this, I think I may be implementing a house "sportsmanship" rule in order to create a clear rule.

 

1. Player initiates action.

 

Pause

 

2. Opponent is allowed a response.

 

Pause

 

3. Player is allowed to augment or respond.  Repeat.

 

 

In this situation, the player initiates by casting Toadify and could not play the Lucky Charm until his opponent had an opportunity to respond to that action.   The initiating player could then apply the lucky charm after his opponent chose to do nothing at all or cast misfortune.

 

This might limit "combos", but it seems like a sure way to keep everyone happy and offers a better process to the turn sequence.

 

Thoughts from the experts?

[Nioreh 50]

..."sportsmanship" rule in order to create a clear rule.

1. Player initiates action.

Pause

2. Opponent is allowed a response.

Pause

3. Player is allowed to augment or respond.  Repeat.

 

In this situation, the player initiates by casting Toadify and could not play the Lucky Charm until his opponent had an opportunity to respond to that action.   The initiating player could then apply the lucky charm after his opponent chose to do nothing at all or cast misfortune.

...

 

 

You sure the simultaneous effect rule doesn't apply? I want to play Lucky Charm; you want to play a spell. Seems pretty simultaneous to me. The only thing stopping you is revealing the spell.

One way around it is to always play spells facedown. You announce that you want to play a spell, and put it facedown. I, the active player, now can do anything; if I don't, you reveal the spell and cast it. If I do something (eg use Lucky Charm) you can put the spell back into your hand.

 

Well, by just announcing that you want to cast a spell quite a lot is already revealed so I don't see why the active player should get the choice to do anything here.

I can't remember where I adopted if from but I'm confident it was from this forum. 

Whenever someone wants to cast a spell around here they are supposed to just call out "Spell!". At that exact time the spell is cast, end of story.

If you are committed to the game and fast to act it should give you an advantage (vice versa!!).

 

As for using the Lucky charm instantly.. I'd allow it. The Misfortune spell is incredibly powerful as it is so I don't see any problems in allowing an additional way to protect yourself from it. If anything I'd give the active player the right to act first so he would have the privilege of using the Lucky Charm anyway (before anyone had announced "Spell!").

 

You might want to rethink the sportsmanship rule. Allowing someone to cast Misfortune on you when you are in possession of the Lucky Charm is not sportsmanship, it's just suicidal

However, good sportsmanship (imo) would be to give your opponents the chance to act when you have made the choice not to.

I.e. not rush through several adventure cards just because you are the only one who's had a chance to read them etc. 

A somewhat similar topic is the order of At the start of your turn-effects. I'd make the same ruling here, the active player chooses the order so the Jin Blooded could use a Spellbook and then discard the spell to gain a fate using his special ability.

[Artaterxes 209]

Guess you're right. Even the Digital Edition rewards speed.

[Nioreh 50]

...

This is a typical case where who speaks first, goes first. Unfortunately there's no procedure for "at any time effects" that can be satisfying for everyone. If you cast a Spell and immediately use the Lucky Charm, the only thing another player could do is to react with Counterspell, Reflection or Spell Scorch. Technically he should have done it first, but you didn't give him the time and couldn't do it. However, the Lucky Charm is not kept secret like a Spell, so saying you would like to use it and being unable to do it because of a Counterspell should not impact on the game too much. On the contrary, revealing a Misfortune Spell while not being able to cast it is worse. You uncovered a valuable weapon.

...

 

A small insert:

I'd say once he has chosen to use the Lucky Charm the option to use Counterspell is gone but I guess this kinda goes with my previous post.

[Uvatha 162]

I think this was disscussed before.. I agree Misfortune is super rude but because Misfortune changes the roll to a "1" and you shouldn't interupt any cards effect until it finishes there is no time to use the lucky charm before Misfortune given it went first. The only way to stop Misfortune is a counter spell or other cancelling effect.

 

So it is "at the mo" a case of first in first served. Now that being said I think "being very smart and sensible players" a way of "game timing" rules should be made or created, mind you this would be a huge undertaking but a simple ruleset would be handy.

 

Talisman is abit like "Pay attention", "Watch whats happening"... If you miss a oppotunity "tough luck"

 

But in reality we need more counterspells hehehe.

[The_Warlock 171]

You sure the simultaneous effect rule doesn't apply? I want to play Lucky Charm; you want to play a spell. Seems pretty simultaneous to me. The only thing stopping you is revealing the spell.

One way around it is to always play spells facedown. You announce that you want to play a spell, and put it facedown. I, the active player, now can do anything; if I don't, you reveal the spell and cast it. If I do something (eg use Lucky Charm) you can put the spell back into your hand.

 

The Simultaneous Effects Rules Clarification is given for effects that "happen at the same time", e.g. if at the start of your turn you would gain 1 Spell with an ability and 1 gold with another, you may decide the order in which things happen. If you have the Orb of Knowledge and the Orb of Prophesy, you may decide the order in which those are applied, and so on.

 

It is not intended as a tie-breaker for this kind of situations. The will to play a card in response to a Spell is simultaneous, but effects are not: they are alternative to each other. The first one trumps the second and makes it unplayable, so it is required to have a way to determine which one goes first BEFORE they are both played, so a tie-breaker rule like the Simultaneous Effects is not the way to go. When you have showed a Misfortune it's frustrating to know it cannot be played, because the active player decides that the Lucky Charm goes first, even if it was declared after Misfortune.

 

 

You sure the simultaneous effect rule doesn't apply? I want to play Lucky Charm; you want to play a spell. Seems pretty simultaneous to me. The only thing stopping you is revealing the spell.

One way around it is to always play spells facedown. You announce that you want to play a spell, and put it facedown. I, the active player, now can do anything; if I don't, you reveal the spell and cast it. If I do something (eg use Lucky Charm) you can put the spell back into your hand.

 

Well, by just announcing that you want to cast a spell quite a lot is already revealed so I don't see why the active player should get the choice to do anything here.

I can't remember where I adopted if from but I'm confident it was from this forum. 

Whenever someone wants to cast a spell around here they are supposed to just call out "Spell!". At that exact time the spell is cast, end of story.

If you are committed to the game and fast to act it should give you an advantage (vice versa!!).

 

As for using the Lucky charm instantly.. I'd allow it. The Misfortune spell is incredibly powerful as it is so I don't see any problems in allowing an additional way to protect yourself from it. If anything I'd give the active player the right to act first so he would have the privilege of using the Lucky Charm anyway (before anyone had announced "Spell!").

 

The real problem here are the Spells. In this forum I've repeated to my own exhaustion that Spells shall not be played in response to Spells, unless you want to play a Counterspell, Reflection or Spell Scorch. In that case you should cast them as soon as you see a Spell you don't want to be cast on you.

 

Spells revealed when not usable are embarassing. You should not reveal them for nothing. It requires some extra care, especially when playing a Spell to change the effects of another Spell. This can't always be done, so always take enough time to evaluate the situation.

 

If this means being a little "too slow" and allowing an opponent to carry out a plan, it's better than putting many cards on the table and start an argument about priorities.

 

A small insert:

I'd say once he has chosen to use the Lucky Charm the option to use Counterspell is gone but I guess this kinda goes with my previous post.

 

Yes, once a Lucky Charm is in effect a Counterspell cannot be played anymore. But if the other player just plays the Spell and says he wants to use the Lucky Charm, he actually doesn't give the opportunity to use a Counterspell. Apparently this is the same case of using the Lucky Charm quickly to avoid a Misfortune, but it's not. Counterspell has priority over any effect that influences the resolution of the Spell, because it is used on a Spell "just cast" to negate it.

 

Obviously you cannot retroactively Counterspell a Spell after the die has been rolled, or after the Lucky Charm has been used. Unfortunately there are tense situations where no proper time is given. This brings the discussion back to "good sportmanship" rules like the ones proposed by chemical22.

 

In our games we proceed like this :

 

1) Player casts a Spell and asks if anybody has a Counterspell/Reflection/Spell Scorch to play

2) The first player to declare an action after the Spell gets priority

3) Other effects that are still possible after point 2) can be implemented; effects that are not usable anymore shall be restrained from using

 

If the caster has an effect that he wants to implement after a Spell, according to his original plans, he usually gets to play it first, if the others were not so prepared to react quickly before he had the time to declare anything. This doesn't happen if he has a plan, because he doesn't stop talking after everybody confirmed he's not using a Counterspell. We are happy with this ruling, as it generates few arguments and allows for some planning ahead to be respected.

Edited August 8, 2014 by The_Warlock

[Uvatha 162]

In our games we proceed like this :

 

1) Player casts a Spell and asks if anybody has a Counterspell/Reflection/Spell Scorch to play

2) The first player to declare an action after the Spell gets priority

3) Other effects that are still possible after point 2) can be implemented; effects that are not usable anymore shall be restrained from using

 

 

Interesting House rule. Personally its too confusing "effects that are not usable anymore shall be restrained from using" is such a broad statement..

 

Our games proceed as normal.

 

1) Player casts a Spell, declaring it and showing it to players.

2) Counterspell/Reflection/Spell Scorch or any other counter spell effect oppotunity to stop spell.

3) If spell is not countered in step 2, Spell takes effect.

4) Play contunes

[The_Warlock 171]

Interesting House rule. Personally its too confusing "effects that are not usable anymore shall be restrained from using" is such a broad statement..

 

Our games proceed as normal.

 

1) Player casts a Spell, declaring it and showing it to players.

2) Counterspell/Reflection/Spell Scorch or any other counter spell effect oppotunity to stop spell.

3) If spell is not countered in step 2, Spell takes effect.

4) Play contunes

 

There are not so many effects that cannot be played after another. I made a broad statement to avoid listing everything, but it is limited to effects acting on die rolls. If an effect that was already applied changes the result of a die, no effect that cancels the roll can be applied, and vice versa.

 

There's no other way to establish priorities besides the "who speaks first goes first" concept. The house rules are only meant to bring some order and method when declaring actions, but the results strongly depend on the attitude of the players.

[Lord Kalten 3]

I think in all these spell sequence / whoever shouts loudest and first, I don't believe that the Digital Edition can ever compare with the physical edition.

 

The reason why is because, a lot of these arguments are based around 'when a player is about to roll / reroll a die'.  In a digital edition, there is no action of a player picking up a die and about to roll whereas there is with a physical edition.

 

In my view, when Misfortune is played after a nasty spell, in a physical edition environment, there is no concept of 'I cast my second spell so fast that you have no chance to protect yourself'.  It's Talisman with a million different cards and you can't expect this leisurely type of game to have the timings of Magic The Gathering etc.

 

Furthermore, the text on Misfortune is: 'Cast on any character about to make a die roll.  That die automatically rolls a '1' result and cannot be rerolled'.

 

If that was cast on me, let's say just after a Random Spell, I would say...before I am about to make a die roll, I will use my Lucky Charm to avoid making a die roll and instead use a 6 value.

 

Then I pick up the dice, about to make a die roll.  Then Misfortune kicks in to turn the die roll into a '1'.  This is then ignored because the Lucky Charm allows the die roll to be ignored and a 6 used.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Lord Kalten

[Uvatha 162]

Yes. I think for fair play every due recourse has to be given so every player has the chance to think and decide to use or not use. So long as that "fair play" is given then its aok. The trouble is when players forget or try to get in before anyone thus dening fair course of action (eg their casting the Random spell) this is basically bad play from bad sports.

 

I think unless you want a rulebook 1000 pages thick we have to make due with what we have and have fun. Talisman is a game that in serious no one needs to cheat.

[Toothless_Night_Fury 103]

 

Furthermore, the text on Misfortune is: 'Cast on any character about to make a die roll.  That die automatically rolls a '1' result and cannot be rerolled'.

 

If that was cast on me, let's say just after a Random Spell, I would say...before I am about to make a die roll, I will use my Lucky Charm to avoid making a die roll and instead use a 6 value.

 

Then I pick up the dice, about to make a die roll.  Then Misfortune kicks in to turn the die roll into a '1'.  This is then ignored because the Lucky Charm allows the die roll to be ignored and a 6 used.

 

 

This is paramount to cheating! If a player casts Random and then casts Misfortune BEFORE you announce you wish to use the Lucky Charm, then the result of the die roll is a 1; the only way to stop Misfortune is with Counterspell or Reflection.

[Lord Kalten 3]

@talismanamsilat - not really.  Unless the rules are clarified by FFG, we are all open to interpret the rules.  Furthermore, in all fairness, I would used to sort of agree with you.  However, whenever I have discussed issues on this forum, I realised that much of the support to the supposedly 'right' interpretation of the cards is a result of a member of this forum scutinising the wording of the card regardless of the supposed intended interpretation.

 

Therefore I stand by the exact wording on the cards.  Misfortune states that 'the die automatically rolls a 1 and cannot be rerolled'.  Lucky Charm states 'You can choose which result on the die instead of rolling it'.  As a roll does not take place, Misfortune cannot take precedence over Lucky Charm.

 

In terms of speed, as 'is about to roll a die' does not take effect until the player is about to literally roll the die (you may choose when he picks up the die) the there is always an opportunity for a player to use Lucky Charm as a defence against someone playing 2 cards in succession.

 

Besides, as I said earlier, this is Talisman, and the concept of 'Instants' from Magic The Gathering with time limits has no place in Talisman.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Lord Kalten

[Toothless_Night_Fury 103]

Someone else chime in please. Warlock? Kalten is completely twisting the way that the game plays. If a player casts Misfortune on another player, the Spell takes immediate effect unless the Spell is negated with Counterspell or Reflection; you cannot negate the Spell with a Lucky Charm!!!

[Artaterxes 209]

Applying a fixed value to a die roll implies the die is rolled, but comes out of your hand with a specific side up.

And when a spell is cast, you have to deal with it. Effects are immediate. Misfortune is cast, the spell causes the die to roll out of your hand with a "1" facing up.

If you think I'm making **** up, the Misfortune text literally says the die "rolls" a 1. But what's most importaht is that you havevfun.

[The_Warlock 171]

Therefore I stand by the exact wording on the cards.  Misfortune states that 'the die automatically rolls a 1 and cannot be rerolled'.  Lucky Charm states 'You can choose which result on the die instead of rolling it'.  As a roll does not take place, Misfortune cannot take precedence over Lucky Charm.

 

In terms of speed, as 'is about to roll a die' does not take effect until the player is about to literally roll the die (you may choose when he picks up the die) the there is always an opportunity for a player to use Lucky Charm as a defence against someone playing 2 cards in succession.

 

The big debate that's going on here is all about this convinction of yours. Misfortune says that it automatically makes a die roll happen and give a certain result, but you think you can still interact with it because the roll didn't happen in reality (=nobody physically rolled a die). However, Misfortune is really clear in stating that the die is rolled, the roll gives a 1 result and cannot be rerolled.

 

So, if Misfortune is declared first, no Lucky Charm for you. If Lucky charm is declared first, no Misfortune can be played, because the roll is not made at all and the casting condition of Misfortune instantly fades away.

 

We're lucky that situations where priorities matter so much like this one are rare, otherwise we would be spending a lot of time for such arguments in these forums!

[DomaGB 171]

About 6 weeks ago in a game I was playing, the Reaper landed on a player. He didn't know all what the Reaper did and I handed him the Reaper card along with Misfortune which I cast at that time.

I purposely did this to share with everyone playing an example of what I have learned here on these forums. Misfortune is nasty! I told them I would never use that combo again.

I keep Misfortune in my game, but debated about pulling it. Instead I promote playing nice.

[Nioreh 50]

...

Then I pick up the dice, about to make a die roll.  Then Misfortune kicks in to turn the die roll into a '1'.  This is then ignored because the Lucky Charm allows the die roll to be ignored and a 6 used.

 

I'll just continue in the older thread where this topic is being discussed simultaneously with this thread.

 

​http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/39174-misfortune-what-rerolling-really-means/page-2#entry1192433