Developing List: Echos of Vader's Past

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

Vader + VI + Proton Rocket

Echo + Decoy+ ACD + Recon Specialist

Backstabber

Academy Pilot

A little different take on the Phantom Squad, turns the PS up to 11! Only a few ships can even tie PS and give up a lot more than this list does to do so. Capable of a 17 dice range 1 strike out of only 4 ships. That's mean. Real mean. Plays good defense and with the new tournament rules that might matter a lot. Only thing of real note that might be changed around is Recon Specialist...

So what say you?

More from me after the break.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Rakky Wistol

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

The Players

Vader- A support piece boasting PS11 as needed, 5 damage dice on a one shot, and the usual double action turtling or striking.  REALLY wish I had 3-4 more points to add to him but there just isn't room for it in this 4 ship list.

 

Echo- The most maneuverable pilot in the game by far, now with the highest PS possible short of Roark, oh...and packing 5 dice naturally.  Add up double focus tokens and you've got a strong offense and defense.

 

Backstabber- The "easiest" target in the list and probably the most hated.  Flanker?  Yep, turn and face a 16 pt tie fighter, split your fire, or eat 3-4 focused dice a round.  That's a Lose, Lose, Lose situation. 

 

Academy- High PS ships getting you down?  Block em with this little guy at PS 1.  They ignoring the little guy?  Hey, for 12pts he's might still be the best points spent in the game... an extra 2-3 dice a round is not a bad thing.  They doing the opposite and shooting him down?  GREAT!  That means they're leaving much more potent points on the table.

 

Trix:

Not just for kids anymore.

 

Decoy- LETS YOU TURN IT UP TO 11.  Mostly used to get Echo shooting at PS 11 and recloaking before everyone.  Everyone except Roark bumps or the 4 other pilots in the game that can match this.  A really interesting trick is that if you find yourself not in arc your academy pilot suddenly shoots at PS 6.  Not likely to happen every game but your 12pt PS6 tie fighter that shows up every couple games is a fun surprise.  Also fun: Vader at PS 11 probably shoots before any phantom can recloak.  If he can get at range 1... that's likely a dead phantom even if they roll 2 evades and took evade as an action!

 

3 flankers- not many lists can truley flank 3 different ways.  This one can.  This is a 4 ship list that acts like a 3 ship list.  3 4+ dice threats can mean you're really picking your poison.

 

Firepower- 5 dice focused and TL'd, 5 dice focused is pretty darn nasty.  It can take out everything in the game if the dice are on your side, with the exception of a Named YT.  They brought a named YT?  Well, if they don't kill one of your ships first you can bring 17 dice to bear on them... just enough to kill a 3p0 falcon who chose evade even without direct hits or perfect rolls.  Heck, if all they did was kill the Academy you still might be able to take it down (Yes... requires optimal lots of things... but not as far off as many who claim to be able to and not as hard to set up).  You can take out an Ace round 1 AND reasonably expect to kill a generic before it fires round 2 (or 2 generics if they aren't bringing something truely scary).

 

Modifications/Changes:

There are really only 3pts to play with here...4 if you're ok with Night Beast vs. Backstabber; I don't like that trade.  Re-con Specialist can go if your confident in your echo piloting prowess.  What to do with those points?

 

Engine Upgrade: Vader with EU is sick.  Is it worth losing Backstabber?  I say no.  Is it worth downgrading Backstabber to NB and losing Recon Specialist?  Your call.

 

Outmaneuver: Again, This would go on Vader.  Makes him really nasty and those proton rockets really punch.   You can choose only 2: Outmaneuver, Recon Sp, or Proton Rockets.

 

Untie: 2 ties = 28pts.  There is a lot that fits in that slot.  Whatever it is, it must feel like a threat.  You want it to be credible enough to draw fire and potent enough to punish if ignored.  This is why Backstabber is so hard to replace. 

 

Naming Conventions:

Echos of Vader's Past is nice because it tells you the main combo AND in the past, Vader flew with Backstabber who was, at some point, an academy pilot...so was Echo... so there's that.

 

Other options for naming: Vader's Spinal Tap, Echos of Spinal Tap, Spinal Tap is Back (and in black)...you get the picture...lots of options here. 

Edited August 4, 2014 by Rakky Wistol

[ID X T 820]

I think I would prefer running an engine on Vader than having Backstabber.

The decoy thing is a cute trick, but exactly how often is it going to actually matter. Decoy isn't useful in the squad for anything other than using Vader's PS. You aren't going to use it for the TIEs...well ever.

I think this is too anti-meta for its own good. A high proportion of the time you are throwing points away. It's not many to be fair, but you are using Vader as a support piece, instead of other scarier options.

I played, and have played against Vader, Fel and Whisper, and you could work your combo into that build I suppose and drop to echo as well, though it comes down to a choice between two of engine, proton rocket or recon spec I think.

[The_Brown_Bomber 573]

looks pretty interesting. so how many total dice do u roll with Proton Rockets on Vader?

i actually like backstabber in there - hes a gr8 flanker that will punish them if they dont deal with him early.

Edited August 4, 2014 by The_Brown_Bomber

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

Vader is 5 dice with Proton, often with a Focus and TL means he's gonna hurt ya...at PS 11 or PS 6.Hard to pass that up for 3 points.

 

EU is tempting but I don't like it at the cost of Backstabber; two Academies are not as big a "third threat" as 1+ stabber.  5 dice from Vader, 5-6 from Echo, and 5-7 from the 2 ties makes 3 nasty flanks to deal with.  I would really like 7pts more for Vader for EU and Outmanuever but I don't see that happening...maybe if we get that 3 pt reduction on the Advanced soon.  Then it feels more like all the eggs in on basket though. 

 

I'm not sure that it's really a big trick...It costs 2 more points than putting VI on Echo alone.  On top of that most VI phantom squads are leaving off 2-3 pts for init when they put Echo/whisper on the table at 7/9 so it's kinda push.  Kinda.  And you might use decoy to swap with a tie if you find yourself out of arc and they are not and getting beat on PS...never leave extra dice on the table.

[AnsibleTheta 83]

Vader w/ veteran instincts & proton rocket

Echo w/ decoy & advanced cloak

Backstabber

Nightbeast

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

NB is one of my favorites. It's a hard choice over double focus for Echo or Outmanuever for Vader.

[IronTau 245]

I think this is really clever! Best use of decoy yet to be seen. Seriously cool here. Who cares about the rest of the list? You have a Phantom. I'd love to see some reports with this in action. 

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

Ya...it's really too sad shadow squadron doesn't have the elite pilot talent (noticing a trend here with expensive imperial ships not getting those on generics)...those 3pts would be HUGE in this list to save.

 

I'll get some rounds in with it tomorrow.  I've done some walkthroughs but nothing against an opponent yet. 

[Zoranno 1]

Vader is 5 dice with Proton, often with a Focus and TL means he's gonna hurt ya...at PS 11 or PS 6.Hard to pass that up for 3 points.

 

G'day all

Rakky at range 1 Vader will be 6 dice with proton rockets, 7 dice with expose

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

Vader is 5 dice with Proton, often with a Focus and TL means he's gonna hurt ya...at PS 11 or PS 6.Hard to pass that up for 3 points.

 

G'day all

Rakky at range 1 Vader will be 6 dice with proton rockets, 7 dice with expose

5... 2 for base attack on the card, 3 for agility... secondary weapons don't add damage at range 1.  Unless I missed something in the new update. 

[IronTau 245]

Please do let me know how it works out tomorrow!

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

updated analysis post (#2).

[Morgan Reid 50]

Nice VI/Decoy idea.

 

I would prefer Whisper with Intel agent though for 3 reasons:

 

1. Easier to keep within Range 2 of Vader.

2. Intel Agent will allow a better informed Decloak move. You can potentialy block one of their their Ace pilots as well.

3. Better defence against Gunner with the Focus token.

[Zoranno 1]

Ah I see what you mean now, thanks for the heads up

Edited August 4, 2014 by Zoranno

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

Nice VI/Decoy idea.

 

I would prefer Whisper with Intel agent though for 3 reasons:

 

1. Easier to keep within Range 2 of Vader.

2. Intel Agent will allow a better informed Decloak move. You can potentialy block one of their their Ace pilots as well.

3. Better defence against Gunner with the Focus token.

I disagree:

1. Echo is going to be better at maneuvering than whisper...pretty much always.

2. I do like Intel tech but not at the cost of recon specialist.  You want to be shooting that ace before he shoots with Echo.  If you're using Echo as a blocker you're losing 4-5 dice attack that probably takes that ace out. 

3. Recon gives you 2 focus tokens for defense when you run into a gunner build. 

4. You're paying +2pts for +1 PS that you're not using.

5. You'd have to rename the list: Whispers of Spinal Tap?  Can you turn a Whisper up to 11?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Rakky Wistol

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

Well... One resounding victory over a suboptimal list isn't exactly a lot to go on. Will keep reporting.

Fun note is the decoy switch with the AP happened twice

[sedarine 29]

Man.. I like this. I don't like the fact that once the proton goes off you're left with 3 2 attack ships and a phantom that has to do work. I'd love to see:

2AP Gains you 4 points to spend..I think I'd try FCS on echo to reduce the loss of backstabber and give myself a 2 point initiative bid.

[BobbyM 284]

I second Vader with Engine Upgrade and Proton Rockets!  I have played 3-5 times against it and every single time it has been rivers of blood/space debris on my end.  To be more specific, Vader with EU has one shorted my Echo, taken down every conceivable Tie Defender, almost took out Jake Farrell and so on... The engine upgrade really gives you an extra level of mobility that can be perfectly exploited at pilot 11.  There are a lot of little tricks that you can do with that 1 bank if you keep practicing with it. 

[Kelvan 1,896]

Hmmm. I feel like we can get stronger than recon but I'm not exactly set on how. I'm

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

Ok. So 1-1. A flechette with a Stressed pilot crit against Echo really swung the last game. The **** hwk with Ion also never missed. In the second game I also found myself Decoying the AP so it is a useful trick to pull. Recon is adjustable...but for what?

When the inevitable -2 boost to the Advanced comes through I'm pretty sure Outmanuever on Vader is the way to go. IF it's that simple... I hope it's -2 boost and some other boost.

Overall it's a fun trick. Deserves a look at least. I'll try turning it up 11 a few more times.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Rakky Wistol

[Morgan Reid 50]

Nice VI/Decoy idea.

 

I would prefer Whisper with Intel agent though for 3 reasons:

 

1. Easier to keep within Range 2 of Vader.

2. Intel Agent will allow a better informed Decloak move. You can potentialy block one of their their Ace pilots as well.

3. Better defence against Gunner with the Focus token.

I disagree:

1. Echo is going to be better at maneuvering than whisper...pretty much always.

2. I do like Intel tech but not at the cost of recon specialist.  You want to be shooting that ace before he shoots with Echo.  If you're using Echo as a blocker you're losing 4-5 dice attack that probably takes that ace out. 

3. Recon gives you 2 focus tokens for defense when you run into a gunner build. 

4. You're paying +2pts for +1 PS that you're not using.

5. You'd have to rename the list: Whispers of Spinal Tap?  Can you turn a Whisper up to 11?

Fair enough and good points. I might just expand to better articulate:

1. Because Echo is more mobile I think it's adds an additional layer of complexity to keep her within Range 2 of Vader without bumping into ur own ships, enemy ships and asteroids. I think Whisper's Decloak is easier to manage consistently. You may be at a skill level where Echo's Decloak and Range 2 of Vader is a piece of cake though.

2. The reason for Intel was a better informed Decloak move to ensure you get a shot - the potential to block an Ace is added flexibility eg: You could block Soontir to deny actions while Vader unloads his Proton Torps. Just increases flexibility & options.

3. I would rather the Evade/Focus combo over double Focus - personal preference.

4. Mostly true but the 2 points is for an easier Decloak to stay near Vader (point 1) but the real money for me is the free Focus after shooting. Makes Whisper the better choice for me - again pers preference.

5. True! I have no answer to this conundrum..

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

alrighty:

 

2-1

Won vs.

Jake loaded

Gemmer + PTL

Tarn +r7

Y+ Flechette x2 + stress droid

 

Barely one.  IF it would have been a death match I think it's a loss.  Stabber pulled a Weapons Malfunction Crit and Echo could barely pull off enough dmg for the win vs the 2 awing aces.  End of game saw Sheildless Vader and injured backstabber and untouched AP Vs. Jake who had only lost 1 shield.

 

I like this list but without an advanced reboot to free up a few points I'm not sure where to go.  Recon is certainly the weak card in the list... what replaces it?

[Rakky Wistol 2,903]

Trying outmaneuver on Vader and intel on echo today.

[polmoneys 199]

my most evil-ish friend runs

Darth Vader — TIE Advanced 29

Decoy 2

"Whisper" — TIE Phantom 32

Veteran Instincts 1

Fire-Control System 2

Advanced Cloaking Device 4

Sigma Squadron Pilot — TIE Phantom 25

Advanced Cloaking Device

99pts

Imho it's kind of cheesy (like dual YT) yet a very good use of Decoy.

Edited August 10, 2014 by polmoneys