Defender & Firespray Comparison

[trustybroom 570]

First off, I like both the Firespray and the Defender but for different reasons. When you look really closely at the ships though, they are very similar in a lot of ways. The Firespray is generally loved and the Defender is generally hated. Why is that? I took a long look at the two trying to figure that out, which is below. Anyway, why all the Defender hate?
 
Points are roughly equal, but have some odd differences:

• PS1 Defender - 30pts
• PS3 Defender - 32pts
• PS6 Defender w/ EPT & Pilot Ability (Vessery) - 35pts
• PS8 Defender w/ EPT & Pilot Ability (Brath) - 37pts

• PS3 Firespray - 33pts
• PS5 Firespray w/ Pilot Ability (Krassis) - 36pts
• PS7 Firespray w/ EPT & Pilot Ability (Kath) - 38pts
• PS8 Firespray w/ EPT & Pilot Ability (Fett) - 39pts

So it seems the devs think the Firespray is worth 2 extra points EXCEPT when it comes to the Delta. Kind of odd.
 
Benefits of the Firespray over the Defender:

• Tankiness - The Firespray is a tank. It can take a massive beating.
• Rear Firing Arc
• Crew Slot - LOTS of good upgrades here
• Bomb Slot
• Easy Torpedo Slot
• Evade Action

Benefits of the Defender over the Firespray:

• Smaller size - harder for opponents to get into arcs and to block
• White K-Turn
• Better Pilot Abilities
• SLIGHTLY cheaper cost
• Better cannon platform with white K-turn and not needing to worry about rear arc.
• AGI 3

People talk about how good the Firespray dial is and how terrible the Defender dial is, but both the dials are remarkably similar: (ignore how it says "A-Wing" just pretend it's the Defender)

 
The Defender can cover the same amount of area as the Firespray and even slightly more if you count the Barrel Roll.
 
The defender doing a left 3 turn will cover about the same area as the Firespray's left 2 turn.

 
On top of this, the Defender can Barrel Roll AND also has the option of a 1 or 2 turn (though they cause stress)

For green movements, it is a lot easier for the Firespray to stay in the fight. The Defender's green movements are made for it to run away and come around again.

 

The ships themselves are very similar, though I think the Firespray is more of a close-range brawler, whereas the Defender is a long-range sniper. I like them both, I just don't understand why one is universally liked and the other is universally hated.

Edited July 31, 2014 by trustybroom

[Biophysical 15,515]

For what it's worth, a few more things for the list.

 

Firespray:  Evade action

Defender:  AGI 3

 

These both sort of reinforce the roles (brawler vs sniper) you outlined for these ships.  The 3 AGI at long range really limits what can reliably damage the Defender.  It makes those 6 HP last a really long time if your'e careful.

[Krynn007 2,445]

I've been wondering about this myself.

The Firespray does take more of a beating, but the defender isbetter at arc dodging.

One example is in one game I had just the defender left vs two royal guards with PTL.

With good maneuvers and barrel roll I was able to stay out of their arcs easier, where is i was in the Firespray, it would have been easier for them to shoot

I also like Rex ability. It is hard to get it off without support from predator,Howlrunner, jonus, or Jendon.

Once fleet officer is out Rex will be awesome.

The white kturn is nice when using hlc. With the Firespray if you have a hlc at some point you will fly by and rely on your rear arc. While this is handy your not getting the use out of your expensive upgrade. Until you with k turn and get stressed or turn around which may take the Firespray out of action for a round or two.

The defender can k turn right away and still get use out of its expensive canon, and still have a focus or target lock.

At first glance I was in the same boat. Why pick the defender over the Firespray.

After a few games with it though I find is growing on me

Though you really have to be careful and keep it behind your main force. If he gets focus fired he will die faster than a Firespray.

Another reason why some may not like the defender is its dial. It flies almost the same as a bomber which can be tricky.

Yout really have to have a plan during set up and know how you intend of flying it along with your squad.

I still don't think it'll see much in competitive play. Maybe once Stay on Target and fleet officer are or it may change how some view it

[Introverdant 707]

MJ calls it overcosted.

Obviously it must be. 

[trustybroom 570]

For what it's worth, a few more things for the list.

 

Firespray:  Evade action

Defender:  AGI 3

 

These both sort of reinforce the roles (brawler vs sniper) you outlined for these ships.  The 3 AGI at long range really limits what can reliably damage the Defender.  It makes those 6 HP last a really long time if your'e careful.

 

Ooops. Thanks for those, added to the list.

...whole bunch of interesting commentary...

I still don't think it'll see much in competitive play. Maybe once Stay on Target and fleet officer are or it may change how some view it

Thanks for the commentary. Why do you think it won't see much competitive play?

Edited July 31, 2014 by trustybroom

[TheGreedyMerchant 255]

MJ calls it overcosted.

Obviously it must be. 

I believe MJ also said there was no way to put an appropriate cost on the white k-turn as well.

 

Edit: I also believe to date this is the best platform for the heavy laser cannon. I never could justify putting it on a firespray because of the rear firing arc.

Edited July 31, 2014 by TheGreedyMerchant

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

 

MJ calls it overcosted.

Obviously it must be. 

I believe MJ also said there was no way to put an appropriate cost on the white k-turn as well.

 

 

Yup. There's no way to appropriately value a white K-turn without at least one other ship having it.

 

The 3/3/3/3 stat line is only worth about 24 points at PS1 though. Mind you the Firespray's statline is worth about the same (edit: a hair more actually: 3/2/6/4 = 26-27 points @PS1), but it has a rear arc and some nice upgrades.

 

Or you can look at Regionals results. The generics barely see use (along with the E-wing). That might change by Nationals or Worlds, but probably not. Someone smarter than me would have to find a points efficient way to use the Deltas.

Edited July 31, 2014 by MajorJuggler

[TheGreedyMerchant 255]

I think this might be a case where the named pilots are played more than the generics. At 32 points the onyx pilot is one less point than a bounty hunter and has no where near the custom options for kit. For just a few more points I can get a named defender with a pilot ability and a white k-turn that is almost as good as a rear firing arc.

 

Edit: Nor does the defender have the hp a bounty hunter has.

Edited July 31, 2014 by TheGreedyMerchant

[MajorJuggler 7,752]

Edit: Nor does the defender have the hp a bounty hunter has.

 

Yes, mathematically x/2/6/4 is about 2.57x as durable as x/3/3/0, whereas x/3/3/3 is about 2.15x as durable as x/3/3/0. Hence the Firespray's stat line is worth more.

[Keffisch 2,642]

 

MJ calls it overcosted.

Obviously it must be. 

I believe MJ also said there was no way to put an appropriate cost on the white k-turn as well.

 

Edit: I also believe to date this is the best platform for the heavy laser cannon. I never could justify putting it on a firespray because of the rear firing arc.

 

And the base size. That dang-fangled base size.

[Lord Master Igneus 46]

What about a defender with expert handling, sniping and barrel rolling? I feel like it would work a lot better sniping from range 3, especially Brath with a HLC.

[TheGreedyMerchant 255]

Why does it need expert handling? It can already barrel roll unless you want to remove target locks from enemies, I'd rather have predator but that is me.

[Droofus 321]

What about a defender with expert handling, sniping and barrel rolling? I feel like it would work a lot better sniping from range 3, especially Brath with a HLC.

 

The defender has a barrel roll action on it's pilot bar.   Is losing opposing TL really worth the cost of expert handling?

[Lord Master Igneus 46]

True enough, I've just been trying to find ships that have a use for it. Seems like it's better suited for large ships, like the Firespray. Those tend to get focused often

[Introverdant 707]

 

 

MJ calls it overcosted.

Obviously it must be. 

I believe MJ also said there was no way to put an appropriate cost on the white k-turn as well.

 

 

Yup. There's no way to appropriately value a white K-turn without at least one other ship having it.

 

The 3/3/3/3 stat line is only worth about 24 points at PS1 though. Mind you the Firespray's statline is worth about the same (edit: a hair more actually: 3/2/6/4 = 26-27 points @PS1), but it has a rear arc and some nice upgrades.

 

Or you can look at Regionals results. The generics barely see use (along with the E-wing). That might change by Nationals or Worlds, but probably not. Someone smarter than me would have to find a points efficient way to use the Deltas.

 

 

 

If the generics do begin showing up more in competitive play, it is my belief that we'll see Ion Cannons on them.

It has been my experience that they work very well with a mixed TIE swarm.

How viable that is in a field which is 50% Falcon by volume, I'm honestly not sure.

[Krynn007 2,445]

For what it's worth, a few more things for the list. Firespray: Evade actionDefender: AGI 3 These both sort of reinforce the roles (brawler vs sniper) you outlined for these ships. The 3 AGI at long range really limits what can reliably damage the Defender. It makes those 6 HP last a really long time if your'e careful.

Ooops. Thanks for those, added to the list.

...whole bunch of interesting commentary...I still don't think it'll see much in competitive play. Maybe once Stay on Target and fleet officer are or it may change how some view it

Thanks for the commentary. Why do you think it won't see much competitive play?

My opinion as to why it won't see much competitive play is i think the majority still prefers Firesprays.

For one or two more points you get extra shield, hull, a rear firing arc, more upgrade possibilities.

Maybe if people pay around with it a little more, and after wave five is out, maybe we will see it a little more.

Having fleet officer on the Decimator, or shuttle flying with Rex would be fun.

Or having both Mara jade and fleet officer in a shuttle, Jendo w/ shuttle title with Rex.

Don't think you see that in Competitive but sounds deadly.

Jendongets target lock passes to Rex, Rex gets into range, gets another focus from Jendon, fires hlc with target lock and two focuses.

Can't wait to try this

Jendon

St-321

Mara jade

Fleet officer

Engine upgrade

Rex

Hlc

Mauler Mithel

Not something I'd take to a tourny but would like to try at home

Edited July 31, 2014 by Krynn007

[Nataris 259]

Want to try out this list. No idea on its validity but seems like it would ruin a falcons day maybe..

Mind the formatting. Exported from app:

TIE DEFENDER: · COLONEL VESSERY

Outmaneuver

Heavy Laser Cannon

LAMBDA-CLASS SHUTTLE: OMICRON GROUP PILOT

Engine Upgrade

Weapons Engineer

· ST-321

TIE FIGHTER: ACADEMY PILOT

TIE FIGHTER: ACADEMY PILOT

Target locks all around + vessery's ability + outmaneuver + heavy laser cannon could be pretty devastating. Phantoms may eat this list up though.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Nataris

[Kerfuffin925 46]

I used a similarish list to that one.

 

Defender/OGP/BSPx2

============
Empire
============

100 points

Pilots
------

Colonel Vessery (38)
TIE Defender (35), Marksmanship (3)

Black Squadron Pilot (17)
TIE Fighter (14), Outmaneuver (3)

Black Squadron Pilot (17)
TIE Fighter (14), Outmaneuver (3)

Omicron Group Pilot (28)
Lambda-Class Shuttle (21), Fire-Control System (2), Weapons Engineer (3), Anti-Pursuit Lasers (2)

 

was able to beat my brother in his first my second 100 pt game.

he ran Biggs/Tala/Bandit/Blue w/ASx2

worked pretty well passing TL via Vesserys ability, I will be trying it out again this coming monday as well i think. I have a limited number of ships on both sides, that was the extent of my empire forces, i had to stretch it as far as possible to get 100

Edited August 1, 2014 by Kerfuffin925

[Hrathen 1,463]

I think people naturally feel okay with spending 1/3 to 1/2 their points on a large base model and not so much on a smaller based model. It's not about whether large or small is better, it is about the perception that the large ships are more than just another fighter. Part of that comes from larger ships ability to take a lot of damage.

Their biggest difference IMO is their upgradability, but they are both very upgradeable. The fact that the Defender has a barrel roll means you don't need to spend you EPT slot to get one. (the first thing I buy on most firesprays, but this may change with the new barrel roll rules for big ships)

I feel like the Defender is crying out for an engine upgrade. That K-turn + boost feels like the barrel-roll + rear arc magic that I got on my Firesprays. Also that boost fixes the Defenders only maneuvering problem, red hard turns. Although it is worth pointing out that while 2 of the hard turns are red, it does have all three. That is pretty awesome, and its k-turn being red means it can still hard turn and then k-turn the next round, and then k-turn again, and again.

As for Pilot abilities, I feel like that Defender has the Firespray beat, but only because the Firespray has such terrible pilot abilities. I can't think of another ship besides the Firespray that has worse pilot abilities than the Defender.

To sum up, I like both ships. I think it is going to take some time to learn the Defender, and we have already spent that time on the Firespray. I think the Firespray was pretty easy to learn, but I remember a time when I was very unimpressed with its rear arc. I had to learn how to use it.

[Rocket Launcher 64]

No one has mentioned that the firespray can be given the slave-1 title and piloted by Boba ------- That's why it is better than the defender!

 

Boba iz da main man!!!

[KCDodger 10,596]

I think it's a mentality thing. Are you a dogfighter who loves having a clear shot or are you a fortress player who covers two angles?

Personally, I'd go with the Defender.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

The firespray has more hp but the large base means you can't arc dodge easily so you need it, the defender on the other hand can fly circles around other fighters easily and rexlers ability is lethal when it goes off.

 

I like both ships I used them together last night and they did me proud, after rexler inflicted three crits on an unsheilded falcon my friend focused everything on him which he survived until the last round b-wing hit him three times and all I needed was one evade to live so of course it came out all blanks, but the damage was done the falcon died along with an x-wing and all I had to do was mop up.

 

That k-turn is amazing and makes it the winner for me.

[Red Castle 3,869]

I think I'll just quote what I said 3 weeks ago:

 

 

When compared to the Firespray, because we love so much to do so, it does bring another playing style. Not everyone like to fly big base ship. Being a small base makes the Defender easier to fit in small place like an asteroid field or a close fight, it's harder to block and, regarding tankiness of both ship, it's also harder to get into your firing arc; even with the rear arc, the Firespray is not that hard to flank because it's large.

 

Regarding the dials, both are very good, but I would give the edge slightly to the Defender because of the hard 1 and the white k-turn, it does help the Defender get back into the fight faster than the Firespray and the rear arc.

 

The defender might not have the Evade action, but it does have the Barrel Roll, which gives him even more maneuvrability over the Firespray.

 

I personally love both, but don't consider one better than the other. For my playstyle, the Defender fits a little more.

[ID X T 820]

I think if the PS3 had an EPT you would see a lot more them. Named ones are probably getting playtime for the EPT alone because their abilities are pretty marginal and combotastic.

You forgot the most important trait of the defender, it's butt ugly.

[KCDodger 10,596]

I think if the PS3 had an EPT you would see a lot more them. Named ones are probably getting playtime for the EPT alone because their abilities are pretty marginal and combotastic.

You forgot the most important trait of the defender, it's butt ugly  absolutely awesome looking in every single way!

Fixed that for you.