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talismanisland

Objects - "I take my Holy Lance from my Concealed Pouch and slay the Dragon whilst juggling three Swords!"

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I just want to write a little about something I've mused about  for some time with a view to adding it to the "Talisman X" feature on Talisman Island, which is to be a collection of various rules suggested to see how they work out.

I am not sure how long I will be with this particular idea, but it is one that has been a bugbear for a while, and not just with myself I am sure.

Objects and how they are carried and equipped.

I have made some icons to use with Object cards to show how large/unwieldy/small they are considered, along with some very basic rules to govern the usage of them.

rev_object_icons.jpg

The Hand icon signifies an Object that is large or functional that must be carried to be used. Lance/Sword/Shield

The Knapsack icon signifies that an Object may be placed within a bag of some sort or carried. Spell Book/Orb/Potion

The Torc icon signifies an Object is small enough to be worn and does not count towards limits. Ring/Belt/Amulet

So....

An Object that is in a Knapsack cannot be used until it is equipped "in hand". A Ring or other small item can be used.

Larger Objects such as a Lance will not fit inside a Knapsack. and must be carried or placed on a Mule/Horse & Cart. Obviously larger Objects would not fit inside a Pouch unless it is like the TARDIS!

If you lose ANY type of carrying tool, ie Mule or Bag, you lose what is on/in it at the time. You do not have time to sort things out unless you are deliberately dropping/discarding an item.

Well, that's about the gist of it. I shall post more if and when I continue with this idea. It may or may not be allied to the character sheet idea I was working on previously.

In the mean time any suggestions would be welcome.

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Hmmm... a really nice idea.  It doesn't cover all that I like to,  such as one-hand or two-hand (maybe a double hand icon?), or attempting to wear multiple objects of the same type, which is why I instituted body area designations (that would take too many different icons).  But I really like the approach to distinguishing objects that can go in "baggage" or not, versus being haulable by followers or pack animals or vehicles. 

I wonder, is there a need for optional icons indicating minimum type of follower necessary to carry excessively large objects?  Probably not except for my stuff, where someone might try to take the Coracle with them. 

Overall, excellent concept!

Questions:

Where on the card would the icons be placed?  It appears to be the bottom of the card, so how big are they proportionally, and how much space do they take from the desciption area?  Are there alternative places they could be put, such as in a column along the side of the image area (using black or white with a contrast stroke, depending on the darkness of the underlying image)?

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That is absolutely excellent: not too complicated but adds a little bit of depth.

As always, I see where JC is coming from but I like the simple and straight forward idea. And I quite like the "munchkin" concept of an adventurer having 10 rings, 50 bracelets and an armoured vest made of amulets ;)

I suggest just putting the 1 Handed icon on twice for 2 handed. And I really do suggest that there is a 2 handed symbol.

Also, there's plenty of space in one of the corners of the object cards. As long as it is visible but doesn't encroach on the text, it's all good.

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I shall post a few more of my thoughts later, but in the mean time I have made a quick "dual wield" icon which should do. The icons are roughly the size of expansion ones and currently are positioned to the bottom of the card. The final position will be sorted later on.

rev_object_icons_2.jpg

There will of course be occasions when you would need the Hand icon along with the Knapsack icon as you might want to put away certain weapons etc for later use. A Sword for instance could be lashed to the side of a Knapsack or hung from it.

You shouldn't need to use two icons with dual wield items as it it highly likely that they would not fit in a Knapsack.

The addition of Follower symbols would not be tricky, but currently there is nothing that couldn't be carried by one person.

Thanks for the input chaps!

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 That looks ace Jon.

What about this ?

 

holdingtalismanobjects.jpg

 

I am not sure that you would need to have more than one icon. It can be inferred.

Braclet (Wear): No limit

One Hand: Maximum of two may be used at any one time if no two-handed. Treated as Bag object if not held.

Two Hand: No other hand objects may be used. Treated as two Bag objects if not held.

Bag: Counts as a carried object but does not count again hand limit.

I am not sure you would need a specific sign for type of carrier eg. mule/porter. That would be complicating things too much.

 

Limit number of objects: I would say it should remain the same (i.e. 4) which could be:

2 x One Hand + 2 x Bag

1 x Two Hand + 2 x Bag

1 x One Hand + 3 x Bag

4 x Bag

Remember Un-equipped hand objects count as a Bag object.

In all cases, any number of wearable objects.

 

Shame would need a reprint of the deck. 

 

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That's very neat thanks! I will have to play with the "jewel" in order to make sure the shading is correct, but a fine idea!

It may not need a full reprint of the deck. I may make some examples on sticker paper or clear stickers to overlay existing cards instead just by printing the corner part. You'd probably be able to print all of the required icons on one sheet actually.

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I too like the simplicity of what B came up with... On the other hand, even less icons per card, often none at all, might be the better common standard. Thereby you can avoid changing card templates to create a special zone for them.  Simple stickers for the general description area become much easier to produce and use if you don't want reprint cards.  And the stickers don't have to include any temple features to line up. 

Additionally, for some things, icons may not be the way to go.  They may contradict a new minor paradigm shift detected in how 4ER handles some cards... and to which 4ER players are already becoming conditioned (conciously or not).  FFG has started adding to some descriptions in a more clear fashion - and actual text is always clearer for most players than icons.  Note that some cards now have new sub-(sub)-types (for lack of a better term). One particular example is the designation of "Weapon" indicating special circumstances for it as well as being treated like other Objects.

In general it would be easier to simply assume as a rule that (1) no weapon can be carried in baggage unless specially said/marked so, and (2) all weapons are 1-Handed unless otherwise indicated.  This means that all weapons without icons must always be "readied" (in hand) or carried by a follower and always requires only 1 hand.  Hence no need for any icons at all unless (1) it's small enough for baggage and/or (2) its two handed.  And even so, it's probably easier and clearer to simply add "2-Hands / Handed" right after the sub-type called "Weapon."

Icons are great in certain situations, so long as they are few. (I know, my first impluse was for more... But I'm reasoning in new direction now after looking at other games and remembering how I and my cohorts reacted to various levels of icon usage). Certain games went overboard when words were good enough and easily possible.  Now those games are in my closet.  Most of my crew must have felt the same, as they never even ask about them.

I still like what Jon's got going because the icons are (1) very clear as to what they represent versus some extremely obscure ones one some game cards, (2) are always about the card itself and how to handle it, and (3) are not used too interpretively in relation to other elements of play outside of the card itself.

Keep at it Jon!

PS.  I know its just a game... but...  I've trapsed all over the Cascades and diffent biomes of North America.  I've also learned a bit about long blade and other hand weapons.  Lashing to a knapsack doesn't work.  Trust me (and not what's shown in movies/tv); you'll end up on your face sooner or later... and more than once.  And that sheath will not always save you from your own weapon!  I and another cohort were using full "modern" frame backpacks, not knapsacks... it didn't work for my shuangshoujian (medieval recreated two-handed chinese war sword).  Don't ask why I was doing it - too complicated to explain.

It might be better to simply rule that such weapons are sheathed or belted.  One can have two in such a fashion and fight with only one, and that's the standard way to haul a spare weapon... unless its two handed.

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JCHendee said:

 It might be better to simply rule that such weapons are sheathed or belted.  One can have two in such a fashion and fight with only one, and that's the standard way to haul a spare weapon... unless its two handed. 

I never even considered having them hung on a belt... oops! Thanks JC! I had merely thought about slung over the shoulder like a rifle or strapped to a backpack!

As for less icons, I think that could be the answer, perhaps only to identify items that are small enough not to count as Objects (the Torc) and perhaps one for two handed weapons.

There is the possibility that you might allow the use of an Object that is contained within a bag to be used however, for example a Potion of Strength. This would only need to be removed from a bag and drunk and discarded. There is no real need to equip it as such. Another example might be the Book of Spells. Provided of course you are not in the middle of a battle or other encounter.

I will have a look through all Objects tomorrow and post a list with suggested "types" for each. Perhaps I will expand on the character sheet idea to help with this as well.

EDIT

Actually, I'm thinking you would need 5 icons, but they should be quite easy to tell apart.

Torc - Small stuff that you wear that is not counted against your carrying limit.

Backpack - Normal Object that can be used straight from a backpack/bag

Hand - Normal Object that must be equipped in hand to be used

Two Hands - Two handed usage though this could be explained in the wording of the Object and needn't be an icon, though might as well be.

"Something else" - Which signifies it is too large to fit in a bag... perhaps something as simple as the bag with a cross through it!

JOKE!

rev_object_icons_3.jpg

EDIT #38475

Actually, thinking further you would really only need two types. One signifying a small object (Torc) and one signifying that an Object needs to be "in hand" to be used (Hand).

Two handed weapons would normally state on the card that the user cannot also use a Shield or second Weapon. It can also be assumed that anything requiring two hands to wield will not fit in a bag (not foolproof however).

I will see after I have listed the Objects just how many cards would come into this category.

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Okay, I've very quickly gone through the main deck and Reaper.

This assumes the use of (maybe) three icons - Torc for smaller items that should not count towards limits of carrying, Hand for items that must be held to use them (ie not inside a bag) and Godzilla (or something) for large items that will not fit within a bag, though these are probably the exception which should really be obvious.

Any "default" item (no icon needed) is an Object that can fit inside a bag that does not need to be in hand to be used. It is something that is not really needed in a crisis like a Sword, but something that can be taken from the bag, used and put back in a single motion (ish) like an Orb or Elixir.

I think all Armour and Weapons need to be equipped (in hand) even though Armour and Helmet would be worn though they are a little different to a Hat or Coat. All Staffs and Wands I have noted as Hand as that would be the classical view of them in use. A couple I am not so sure of, and would welcome a little discussion anyway.

Amulet - Torc
Cross - Default
Holy Grail - Default
Holy Lance - Dual Wield?
Magic Belt - Torc
Orb of Knowledge - Default
Potion of Strength - Default
Ring - Torc
Runesword - Hand
Solomon’s Crown - Torc
Talisman - Torc
Wand - Hand

Armour - Hand
Axe - Hand
Helmet - Hand
Raft - N/A
Shield - Hand
Sword - Hand
Water Bottle - Default

Bane Sword - Hand
Druid Staff - Hand
Elixir of Destiny - Default
Elixir of Might - Default
Elixir of Wisdom - Default
Fate Stealer - Hand
Flying Carpet - Needs to be a Hand, but is too big for a bag really, though it could be stowed!
Hearth Rune - Default/Torc?
Orb of Destiny - Default
Psychic Crystal - Hand
Rod of Ruin - Hand
Skull Wand - Hand
Staff of Mastery - Hand
Sword of Light - Hand

Casket - Godzilla!
Concealed Pouch - N/A
Golden Statue - Default
Map - Hand
Shovel - Hand

From this list it would be more useful to use an Icon for the Default (Knapsack) items as there are less of them than Hand ones. Though I would prefer that items that are "default" did not need any special identification. Ponder....

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After much pondering I am at the following stage:  Arrghh!

...but then:

Icons required -

Small items which do not contribute towards limits - Torc

Items that need to be "in hand" to use - Hand icon or "Jazz Hands" icon for two-handed items

Items that cannot be placed inside a bag of any sort (apart from a Mary Poppins bag) would likely need another option

There may even be a case for items that need to take up all of your carrying space, but let's not even ponder that yet!

Anything else can be assumed to be possible to use from within a bag etc for the reason outlined previously UNLESS there is more pressing business, like being in the middle of an attack.

So effectively only three types of icon would be needed and would not be difficult to rule or even implement with small stickers, either clear or not and a small cutting punch to make the icons. Even a hole punch might suffice for that if you were gentle enough.

There is a case for using less icons by labelling default ones instead of in hand items due to the numbers involved. I would prefer to use hand icons though as it is easier for instances where people are trying to use a Sword from within a bag. "Duh! It needs to be in your hand". You get the idea! I feel it is better to assume that things can be done for ease of ruling unless they are exceptions.

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talismanisland said:

There is the possibility that you might allow the use of an Object that is contained within a bag to be used however, for example a Potion of Strength. This would only need to be removed from a bag and drunk and discarded. There is no real need to equip it as such. Another example might be the Book of Spells. Provided of course you are not in the middle of a battle or other encounter

Most definitely. In my own approach I subtyped these as "Resources" - an object type that can be used regardless of readied, in baggage, or carrier by a Follower.  But only for items that would not be used in an instant just before or during a Battle or Psychic combat.  The Potion of Strength is kind of inbetween.  Doubtful you could run away to your mule or cart to get it when you're being attacked, but for the sake of Talisman's simplicity, it would be best to allow this with the Potion.  Other resources obvioius would be like the Orb of Knowledge, which essentially gets used before encounters and thereby plenty of time to retrieve and use it before you get jumped.

talismanisland said:

Actually, I'm thinking you would need 5 icons, but they should be quite easy to tell apart.

Sounds good, though again, any object that ends up needing more than 2 icons should seriously be reviewed to see it isn't being overthought... or simplify the item itself.  I still think the single-hand icon probably isn't necessary.

talismanisland said:

"Something else" - Which signifies it is too large to fit in a bag... perhaps something as simple as the bag with a cross through it!

Godzilla?! partido_risa.gif  Okay, cute... but maybe something more to Talisman... like a Dragon icon.

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Holy Lance - is one (among many) of the most misrepresented items in the game, probably because Talisman was inspired by RPGs. Many weapons were added to fantasy games for more spice by people who know nothing about their divisions features, and actually weilding and use... they based their knowledge on what they saw in movies.

There are too kinds of lances, generically - footman and horseman - and the types developed separately, not one being an offshoot of the other. The picture is neither; that is a battle spear adaption of a boar spear. It is not a lance. We'll assume that whoever put that card together was thinking of a footman's lance, since horses aren't part of the standard card set.

A lance is a long weapon (at least 8 feet) and heavy in either case. It is generally made for penetration and wouldn't have a flaired blade on the end. They are always two handed when used in open man to man combat, and they are lousy for such things. The footman's lance was trade off so certain troops could operate as pikeman or backup open skirmishers. It was stupid development that didn't last long historically. They make lousy pikes, which are 12 - 18 ft, because by the time cavalry hit the end of a lance (or spear), the spearman was trampled to death in an instant, where a pike' length at least allowed a chance to kill a rider and get out of the way.

Runesword - this one is also somewhat questionable. It is by description an obvious play on "Stormbringer," one of the two swords carriered by Elric of the classic pulp era sword and sorcery novels. The only way it was weilded with one hand was because of strength potions taken by Elric or being fed by the sword. It's design in all classic illustrations by Eric Kimball was an early era two-handed Claymore. If I were to re-write that card for accuracy, it would be two-hand for anyone with a Strength less than 5; or hand and a half above that.

Talisman - Torc - hmmm... "Torc" as in small enough or as in must be worn. If the later, no. It should be treated as a Resource, so effective anywhere in the adventurer's party.

Druid Staff - Hand - if its used as a "weapon" at all, aside from any magic powers, it is two-handed. Same for all staves.

Hearth Rune - Default/Torc? - the determining factor is whether it is worn, weilded, or another resource always affecting the adventurer. If it is a rune "stone" (which would be correct), then it is an item that could be stored in baggage AND it must be weilded to use. However, if it is not needed in a sudden situation, then it could be handled Default as a Resource.

Staff of Mastery - If this is just for enslaving monsters (as pe 2e), then yes, one-handed.

Sword of Light - Hand - double check this one... so far the two standard magic weapons were both two handed. For fairness among players using different magic weapons, it might be necessary to make this one 2-Handed just for a sense of balance outside of any issue of verisimilitude.

Map - Hand - I'd make this Default, as in a Resource, since it wouldn't be consulted in any imminent situation. It doesn't need to be in hand and can be easily taken in and out of baggage as needed... like the Potion of Strength.

Shovel - Hand - again, not used in an imminent situation, so make it a Resouce for convenience (though it wouldn't fit in a napsack).


 

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ADDITIONAL: Have you thought about printing your icons on some type clear plastic, like some types of see-through mail labels?  It would make it easier to cut them out and apply them to cards already printed.

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JCHendee said:

 

talismanisland said:

"Something else" - Which signifies it is too large to fit in a bag... perhaps something as simple as the bag with a cross through it!

 

Godzilla?! partido_risa.gif  Okay, cute... but maybe something more to Talisman... like a Dragon icon.

 

 

 

Err. Like a Mule ?

 

I am actually mid-game at the moment and so not allowed to rifle through deck and check (wife kicking my butt again!)

but are all the Hand type objects Weapons or Armour ? Perhaps some are Magic Objects and should be listed as Magic Weapon instead?

 

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Okay...

rev_object_icons_5.jpg

Torc icon signifies an Object that is small enough to be worn/pocketed and does not count towards carrying limits.

No icon would signify an Object that can fit inside a bag/pouch OR on a Mule and does not have to be equipped (in hand) to be used.

Hand icon signifies an Object that can fit inside a bag/pouch but needs to be equipped (in hand) to be used.

Two Handed icon signifies an Object that requires two hands to use, e.g. Great Axe. This would not fit within a bag/pouch and would likely require the use of 2 of your 4 slots to carry it.... possibly.

Mule icon signifies that an Object is too large to fit in a bag/pouch. It is unlikely that you would be able to equip this Object in the traditional sense if you are not able to carry it normally. These would have to be items that can be assumed usable unless there is a crisis of some sort like an attack.

 I think that should do for the types of Object. All that would be needed is a definitive list.

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     Very cool idea! I'd buy that for a dollar. While reading through these posts I had a thought of a new card  that  could help store more Torc's and defaults closer to hand. How about a "Cloak or Robe of Many Things" . Basically, it is a cloak / robe that has large deep pockets on the inside that enable you to carry 6 torc's / defaults. Go a little overboard and make it like the concealed pouch. Though that might be a little too much.

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I think what I need to do is review the Objects thus far including the Dungeon and repost a suggested list.

There is something I wanted to expand on and that would be bags/pouches etc which boils down to a question of scale.

In my mind, a pouch would be something small, equivalent to a pocket, which might only fit a smaller item in and perhaps conceal it, so only useful for a "Torc" item.

A bag/knapsack/satchel/backpack would be assumed to be of a certain size, capable of holding varying amounts of items depending on whether it was special (Bag of Holding) or not.

Larger items would fit on a Mule/Sherpa and as said, generally speaking would be usable given a pause in the action without being in hand.

An important part of the house ruling would be the loss of items on/in something when that "container" is lost. Why waste Acquisition getting that Sword when you can Mesmerise the Mule and get everything on him?! It should lead to some interesting choices for equipping items.

 

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I ran into a similar concern in putting together simplified baggage for my expansion.  I decided to keep it simple and stuck with

  • Sachels for 3 "medium-small" items (anything smaller and less bulky than armor and weapons)
  • Backpacks (the FULL sized kind) for 4 items (with allowed lashing of weapons, though in reality its a really bad idea). 
  • Pouch is what all characters have for gold and can also hold "tiny" items (mainly Rings).  All characters automatically have these for gold.  BUT... lose the purse as a whole and you lose everything in it.

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