Gaining Attacks

[DanteFaustus 3]

So I just got Rogue Trader and I have a question. It seems that there is no way to gain extra attacks(actions) per round as in other games. That seems really odd should not a Arch-Militant, for example, be gaining more attacks over time as his/her character grows? Really? Only one action per round no matter what level your character is? Sure you can get Multiple Attack talent. But only one advance? Am I reading the rules wrong? Does anybody have any house rule that deal with this issue if I am correct? Thanks for helping a noob.

Edited July 27, 2014 by DanteFaustus

[Erathia 648]

So I just got Rogue Trader and I have a question. It seems that there is no way to gain extra attacks(actions) per round as in other games. That seems really odd should not a Arch-Militant, for example, be gaining more attacks over time as his/her character grows? Really? Only one action per round no matter what level your character is? Sure you can get Multiple Attack talent. But only one advance? Am I reading the rules wrong? Does anybody have any house rule that deal with this issue if I am correct? Thanks for helping a noob.

 

Arch-Militants are actually geared towards ranged combat, which gain extra attacks by getting extra dakka. Missionaries are the real melee-focused combat class.

 

There's always Elite Advances, but one person created a switch-over for melee focused arch-militants here: https://rogue-trader-rise-of-the-fallen.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/modified-class-option-melee-militant

[Errant 185]

Swift/Lightning Attack?

[Utherix 31]

How many attacks can you really fit into a 3 second round? If you want more hits, there are a few ways:

 

1. Semi-Auto and Full-Auto firearms.

2. Accurate and Scatter firearms.

3. Dual-wield pistols or one-handed melee weapons.

4. Blast weapons such as grenades and rockets.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Utherix

[Errant 185]

Also the classic "First rank, Fire! Second rank, Fire!"

[Tenebrae 429]

Also the classic "First rank, Fire! Second rank, Fire!"

Minions. Will Solve Most Problems.

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

How many attacks can you really fit into a 3 second round? If you want more hits, there are a few ways:

 

1. Semi-Auto and Full-Auto firearms.

2. Accurate and Scatter firearms.

3. Dual-wield pistols or one-handed melee weapons.

4. Blast weapons such as grenades and rockets.

Let's not forget the aforementioned Swift Attack and Lightning Attack Talents, in regards to melee.

But really, as you say, how many attacks can you really fit into a 3-second round?

Everything going on in a single Turn is supposed to be happening at the same time, which can be a hard time to illustrate as a GM. It's not a matter of you running up and hitting someone, and then they run to the side. It's a matter of you running up to hit someone, just as they start moving to the side to avoid you, yet you manage to get a stab in before they do so.

And so on.

But to answer OP:s original question: No, you aren't missing anything. And no, there's no homebrews to deal with this "issue", simply because it's not really an issue at all. In fact, multiple attacks (Full Auto, Lightning Attack, etc) quickly becomes a larger issue in the game than single hit/round becomes, and if the number of attacks scaled based on Rank (nevermind that nothing else scales by Rank) the combat system would become frightfully bloated and spin wildly out of control really, really fast.

 

In Rogue Trader (and the other WH40kRP games) a single hit can be a really big deal, and multiple hits is (or can be) really, really powerful.

Also, if you intend to be a melee Arch-Militant, speak with your GM. The Arch-Militant is oddly unsuited for melee combat (and Command, even more oddly), and if you want to play a melee Arch-Militant (which is a completely reasonable thing to ask for) the Arch-Militant Career needs a number of tweaks.

 

The link Erathia posted seems solid, but there's some oddities (most notably, why much with the Skills at all, in that way? I get it, it's for a Death/Feral/Feudal-kind-World Arch-Militant, but it detracts from the idea of just fixing the Arch-Militant into being Melee-Focused). At the very least, however, it's a good base to build from and take a look at.

Lastly, if anything should be fixed at all in terms of Skills and the Arch-Militant, it's that Command should be Available on Rank 1, Command (+10) on Rank 3, and Command (+20) on Rank 5. Command being any rarer than that for an Arch-Militant is just unacceptable.

[Magellan 185]

Missionaries are the real melee-focused combat class.

I'd argue in favour of Rogue Traders (and Orks) on this one. I find the Missionaries get their additional attacks too late, and the lack of dual-wielding hurts them profoundly as well. If two-handed weapons were actually any good in this game, things might be different. As it stands, though...

[Erathia 648]

 

Missionaries are the real melee-focused combat class.

I'd argue in favour of Rogue Traders (and Orks) on this one. I find the Missionaries get their additional attacks too late, and the lack of dual-wielding hurts them profoundly as well. If two-handed weapons were actually any good in this game, things might be different. As it stands, though...

 

 

I'd honestly forgotten how good Rogue Traders are in melee combat because our Rogue Trader figures any time he picks up a sword it means his massive diplomatic skills have failed so he should probably be ordering an army to take care of this.

 

Anyway, it's true they don't get Swift Attack until Rank 4, and Lightning Attack until the end of their career, but they do pick up Crushing Blow and Frenzy very early, and then get a bunch of skills to ensure that even when they hit once they'll hit very hard. More importantly though once they get Litany of Hate and The Emperor Protects, they're going to be buffing other people to be better warriors.

 

I guess it's a matter of approach. Missionaries seem to hit once but really can make it count, whereas Rogue Traders can attack with style, both of which are fitting.

 

For two-handed weapons (getting that extra die of damage is essential), I like the Zaythan warblade. Running adventures on Zayth is inherently fun, and this one features both a power field, tearing and is only unbalanced instead of unwieldy, so you can still (badly) make parry attempts with it.

[Magellan 185]

 

More importantly though once they get Litany of Hate and The Emperor Protects, they're going to be buffing other people to be better warriors.

 

This is not an opinion I see often. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but could you explain to me how you figure Missionary talents are a worthwhile use of fate points? I dismissed them a long time ago, myself, so there may be angles I haven't considered.

 

As for Missionary melee, I still disagree. I submit that the ability to attack several times and deplete the dodges of your opponent is more important than doing a lot of damage once. Even if doing a lot of damage once were important, thunder hammers and power fists (both one-handed weapons) will take care of that for you - or an Omnissian Axe (also one-handed) if you're desperate. As for parry attempts (assuming you wouldn't just dodge instead), you can get wrist-mounted power blades for a +25 to parry without giving up your hand.

 

I don't use adventure paths myself, but I have a hard time imagining the Zaythan warblade blowing either of those out of the water.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Magellan

[Erathia 648]

 

 

More importantly though once they get Litany of Hate and The Emperor Protects, they're going to be buffing other people to be better warriors.

 

This is not an opinion I see often. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but could you explain to me how you figure Missionary talents are a worthwhile use of fate points? I dismissed them a long time ago, myself, so there may be angles I haven't considered.

 

As for Missionary melee, I still disagree. I submit that the ability to attack several times and deplete the dodges of your opponent is more important than doing a lot of damage once. Even if doing a lot of damage once were important, thunder hammers and power fists (both one-handed weapons) will take care of that for you - or an Omnissian Axe (also one-handed) if you're desperate. As for parry attempts (assuming you wouldn't just dodge instead), you can get wrist-mounted power blades for a +25 to parry without giving up your hand.

 

I don't use adventure paths myself, but I have a hard time imagining the Zaythan warblade blowing either of those out of the water.

 

 

Most of my players now have Jaded, meaning the only time they'll have to make Fear tests is in the case of Daemons - in which case a Fear test can absolutely destroy plans and get players killed incredibly quickly. Emperor Protects allows you to negate Fear for the entire PC party - the only part that matters - and make people harder to hit. The others aren't as useful although Divine Ministration has saved someone's life at least once, and Blessed Radiance saves the party when their latest bout of debauchery accidentally summons all of the demons.

 

Also depleting dodges is good, but a sufficiently high enough Weapon Skill instead just uses a Feint, and then rob the enemy of their ability to Dodge or Parry. I have also house-ruled that a Thunder Hammer is a 2-handed weapon, but even if it were not that extra die from a Zaythan Warblade is quite tempting for me. Also, where are wrist-mounted parry blades coming from? I strictly limit the number of weapons my players can have on at one time, and remind them attempting to innovate their equipment lists is heresy.

[Magellan 185]

Right, you simply *don't* consider faith talents too situational to be worth the effort, while I do. Ultimately a matter of taste, and a complete answer to my question.

 

In Rogue Trader, Feint is an attack action, which means that a character relying on it to be effective in melee will only be attacking every other round. Not only that, but the evasion loss from Feint only affects *one* attack, so if you take a Multiple Attacks action next round, all that would happen is that you'd hit with the first attack instead of the last.

 

Additionally, you don't gain an extra die from the Warblade compared to the hammer. The warblade does 2d10+6, Pen 6. The Thunder Hammer does 2d10+4, Pen 9, and doubles your strength (for an additional 5-11 damage for the average close combat character, I would assume). The additional damage more than makes up for the loss of tearing, and the hammer additionally has shock.

 

The power wrist blade is an exotic Imperial weapon from Into the Storm, Balanced and Defensive.

 

The "one weapon rule" rustles my jimmies something fierce. To me, it seems like it would completely hobble game balance and leave heavy weapons as the only remaining valid build. Your game, your rules, of course, but dayum.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Magellan

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

[...]

 

The "one weapon rule" rustles my jimmies something fierce. To me, it seems like it would completely hobble game balance and leave heavy weapons as the only remaining valid build. Your game, your rules, of course, but dayum.

He didn't say it was a "one weapon rule", he said that he strictly limits the number of weapons his players can have at any one time. Huge difference.

It's the difference between carrying one weapon, infinite weapons, and (as I assume he meant) a reasonable amount of weapons, such as one on each hip and one on the back, or only as many weapons as you can reasonably have room for within reach.

It prevents the mobile armoury approach to personal warfare.

[Magellan 185]

You are quite right. I misread it as him allowing players only *one* weapon on them at a time. Not sure how I managed that.

[Darth Smeg 234]

How many attacks can you really fit into a 3 second round? 

 

RT p234: "a Round is approximately five seconds long"

 

​In terms of fighting, that is quite a bit. Professional sprinters run 100m in less than 2 Rounds.

[Utherix 31]

 

How many attacks can you really fit into a 3 second round? 

 

RT p234: "a Round is approximately five seconds long"

 

​In terms of fighting, that is quite a bit. Professional sprinters run 100m in less than 2 Rounds.

 

How is sprinting, one of the primary things the human body is meant to accomplish on a biological level, similar to fighting? Fighting is just variations of flailing around our forward most appendages.

 

Also, core says that whole round for all characters is 5 seconds, and later somewhat contradicts itself saying "It’s important to remember that a Round is only a few seconds long, so the character’s Turn within that Round is but a few moments.", which I interpret as meaning the whole strategic round is 5 seconds but each character is given 3 second Turns, which accounts for initiative, higher initiative starting closer to the beginning of 5 seconds round, and lowest initiative Turn only starting after 2 seconds into the Round.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Utherix

[Magellan 185]

Five could still be considered "few", but 40k never struck me as a setting that requires this level of realism. Chainswords are a thing, and physical conditioning can put you at a point where you can carry around metric tons of stuff.

[Erathia 648]

You are quite right. I misread it as him allowing players only *one* weapon on them at a time. Not sure how I managed that.

 

I was unclear with what I meant, but Fgdsfg's explanation was what I was trying to say. 

 

In Rogue Trader, Feint is an attack action, which means that a character relying on it to be effective in melee will only be attacking every other round. Not only that, but the evasion loss from Feint only affects *one* attack, so if you take a Multiple Attacks action next round, all that would happen is that you'd hit with the first attack instead of the last.

 

The Rogue Trader Errata takes away the Attack sub-action from Feinting, which greatly increases its ability in combat. As my group had come from Dark Heresy where that limitation was in effect, boy were they surprised. By Slaugth.

[Magellan 185]

Oh. Well, good. Gives those poor beleaguered non dual-wielders a chance to contribute.

[Erathia 648]

Oh. Well, good. Gives those poor beleaguered non dual-wielders a chance to contribute.

My Rogue Trader regularly Thanks non helpful NPC combatants for their contributions.

[Darth Smeg 234]

 

The Rogue Trader Errata takes away the Attack sub-action from Feinting, which greatly increases its ability in combat. As my group had come from Dark Heresy where that limitation was in effect...

 

Dark Heresy doesn't have that limitation. The rules merely state "Note that you may not take the same Half Action twice."

 

Feint + Standard Attack is a perfectly valid combination.

[Nameless2all 210]

 

 

The Rogue Trader Errata takes away the Attack sub-action from Feinting, which greatly increases its ability in combat. As my group had come from Dark Heresy where that limitation was in effect...

 

Dark Heresy doesn't have that limitation. The rules merely state "Note that you may not take the same Half Action twice."

 

Feint + Standard Attack is a perfectly valid combination.

 

 

Yes but it also states that you may only make one "Attack" action per round, and feint was considered an Attack action for some odd reason.  Maybe they errated it.

[Darth Smeg 234]

Dark Heresy did not state this, and neither did Rogue Trader until the Errata. (The same errata which changed the Feint-subtype, so that it would still be usable as intended).

 

RT Errata, p7:

Using  Actions  (page  237):  Under  the  heading  “Using 

Actions” add the sentence “An Explorer cannot perform more than 

one of the following during his Turn: an Action with the “Attack” subtype, 

using (not sustaining) a Psychic Technique, or using a Navigator Power. 

“The  only  exception  to  this  is  that  a  character  may  use  a  Psychic 

Technique or Navigator Power that only requires a Free Action during 

his turn and still perform an action with the “Attack” subtype on the 

same Turn. They may not use an additional Psychic Technique or 

Navigator Power during that Turn.” 

 

Feint (page 237 and 239): In Table 9-4: Combat Actions 

and in its entry, Feint should not have the “Attack” subtype. 

 

Manoeuvre (page 237 and 241): In Table 9-4: Combat 

Actions  and  in  its  entry,  Manoeuvre  should  not  have  the 

“Attack” subtype.