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DC06675

Shadow of Mordor: Celebrimbor is the wraith in the game

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For those interested in the game, a new preview showed that Celebrimbor is the wraith that enters the main character and Gollum will be along with you to assist you in various ways.

 

So, do you guys think this is a blight on Tolkien's works, or do you like the way the storyline is going? 

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/07/25/sdcc-2014-see-sauronas-betrayal-in-shadow-of-mordor

Edited by DC06675

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i thought this was about the card game them :D

and yes, i do! but then again this game seems to have thrown it out of the window a long time ago

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Well, I'm glad that they are bringing in Celebrimbor to provide *some* kind of lore explanation for this wraith thing that seemed so dubious and antithetical to Tolkien. My position is pretty much the same: I don't have much faith in the lore aspect, although I'll still probably play it. I found that War in the North included a TON of lore stuff for anyone looking for a Middle-earth video game, even though the gameplay is a bit repetitive.

Edited by Raven1015
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Well, I'm glad that they are bringing in Celebrimbor to provide *some* kind of lore explanation for this wraith thing that seemed so dubious and antithetical to Tolkien. My position is pretty much the same: I don't have much faith in the lore aspect, although I'll still probably play it. I found that War in the North included a TON of lore stuff for anyone looking for a Middle-earth video game, even though the gameplay is a bit repetitive.

I enjoyed War in the North. Ultimately I will likely play it if it is good, and overlook the lore issues. As long as Arwen doesn't take the place of someone and somehow save the day in this too I will be ok. 

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For those interested in the game, a new preview showed that Celebrimbor is the wraith that enters the main character and Gollum will be along with you to assist you in various ways.

 

So, do you guys think this is a blight on Tolkien's works, or do you like the way the storyline is going? 

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/07/25/sdcc-2014-see-sauronas-betrayal-in-shadow-of-mordor

Wow, really wasn't impressed when I read that Celebrimbor is the wraith. Then I watched the video...

Which has (even if slightly non-canonical) a clip and flashback of Celebrimbor forging the rings upon Annatars request and even shows him fighting Sauron at the end.... that clip was epic. First ever sort of actual clip or video (even if just in a game) that involves characters and events that happened in the first age, really looking forward to this game now!!

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The clip does look really nice, and it's cool to see that moment.

 

But how can I not dismiss this game? Seriously. So the Ranger is killed and reanimated by the spirit of Celebrimbor? Is that right? I can't get behind that! :wacko:

 

Now, I have a hard time with adaptations (with several exceptions like the LOTR movies, the LOTRO computer game, obviously this game, and some others), but crap like this and Guardians of Middle-earth and The Hobbit films are just so contrary to the works. The ones I do like maintain a certain level of consistency and 'feel' of the books, but many are either a tad too far in the wrong direction or a full 180.

 

So, I don't mean to poopoo on this thread and I do hope I can lighten up. :)

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Man I definitely agree and as sub par as it is honestly my excitement is purely just from getting to see first age characters/events portrayed visually. 100% agree about how its brutally savaging the lore and canon works.

Pretty awful but I doubt that anyone is going to do some amazing perfectly thematic and canonical game any time soon (LOTRO seems to be doing this in its own way) so this game is all we are getting.

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The clip does look really nice, and it's cool to see that moment.

 

But how can I not dismiss this game? Seriously. So the Ranger is killed and reanimated by the spirit of Celebrimbor? Is that right? I can't get behind that! :wacko:

 

Now, I have a hard time with adaptations (with several exceptions like the LOTR movies, the LOTRO computer game, obviously this game, and some others), but crap like this and Guardians of Middle-earth and The Hobbit films are just so contrary to the works. The ones I do like maintain a certain level of consistency and 'feel' of the books, but many are either a tad too far in the wrong direction or a full 180.

 

So, I don't mean to poopoo on this thread and I do hope I can lighten up. :)

this is the best ME game to come out, ever, hands down, no debate!

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The clip does look really nice, and it's cool to see that moment.

 

But how can I not dismiss this game? Seriously. So the Ranger is killed and reanimated by the spirit of Celebrimbor? Is that right? I can't get behind that! :wacko:

 

Now, I have a hard time with adaptations (with several exceptions like the LOTR movies, the LOTRO computer game, obviously this game, and some others), but crap like this and Guardians of Middle-earth and The Hobbit films are just so contrary to the works. The ones I do like maintain a certain level of consistency and 'feel' of the books, but many are either a tad too far in the wrong direction or a full 180.

 

So, I don't mean to poopoo on this thread and I do hope I can lighten up. :)

 

 

Ringwraiths, barrow wights, the dead army, the dead marshes, all okay. This is where you draw the line?

 

LotR fans are really the worst about things that "violate the canon." Chill out.

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Ringwraiths, barrow wights, the dead army, the dead marshes, all okay. This is where you draw the line?

 

LotR fans are really the worst about things that "violate the canon." Chill out.

Not really. Have you met comic book fans? Holy cow. Try tweaking someone's costume.

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Ringwraiths, barrow wights, the dead army, the dead marshes, all okay. This is where you draw the line?

 

LotR fans are really the worst about things that "violate the canon." Chill out.

 

 

Ring-wraiths and Barrow-wights (or the Army of the Dead) are Men infected with some kind of enchantment. The Dead Marshes are also some kind of evil magic, as the 'ghosts' in the movies aren't mentioned in the book; there are just dead faces that may or may not be material.

 

Elves are bound to Middle-earth both physically and spiritually and their spirits never leave their bodies (to my knowledge). So the idea of an 'Elf ghost' doesn't work. 

 

*pushes up glasses* Now why don't you, chill out?

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I posted on another forum that I'm past getting upset over what film- and game designers do with Middle-Earth. Arda is out of Tolkien's hands; it's a phenomenon, and now others are adding to his creation.

Do I, from a lore perspective, absolutely despise Talion acquiring "wraith-powers" and jumping around beams and ropes like freakin Ezio Auditore? Yes.

Is seeing Celebrimbor in a game unexpected but absolutely badass and fantastic? YES.

I am now convinced that this is at least something more than a cash-grab LotR mod for Assassin's Creed. So I'll play and most likely enjoy the game, but I'll not call it canon.

/end rant

Edit: I'm sorry guys; I really want to get my hands on The Three Trials.

Edited by Olorin93
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we should start a lore topic...then we can unleash our withheld frustration at the pack delay arguing this out with each other :D (/ducks and runs away...)

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I recognize that I'm uptight about all this stuff, and I'm sure Shadow of Mordor will be fun to play. I also recognize that it's all about subjective interpretation.

 

But I get cheesed when I see stuff that's so not Tolkien getting slapped into Middle-earth stuff. I start to think that they're using the license for the 'star power', not to make something that further explores or parallels what Tolkien started.

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its also been a changing thing with me... i used to get really irritated with the film adaption, even just a few years ago... now i enjoy watching it for what it is, an adaption that was changed in places to get more people to watch it...

 

the way i look at it is, Tolkien wrote a masterpiece, created a world that has not even been rivalled...but it was created in a different century...a different age almost... there are going to be few things that can truly stay close to the lore and keep the attention of the average view/reader/gamer today... (and i do mean average... im not talking about anyone on this forum)

 

so, i can tolerate the things that break the lore of Tolkien, even if i tolerate it with a forced grin :D

Edited by richsabre
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Maybe Celebrimbor is not really Celebrimbor, but really Sauron in disguise, underhandedly culling the weak links in his own ranks using a Ranger who... Oh never mind.  It's probably unsalvageable. 

 

And an Elf ghost... yeah... that's kind of iffy.  Maybe if he was evil enough to share fate with the corrupt dead, but throughout the Silmarillion, there are plenty of examples of arguably evil elves who still ended up in the halls of Mandos.  Was Celebrimbor corrupt enough to even warrant this discussion?  

 

I'm a bit of a stickler for canon in Tolkien's work, but primarily because I believe it honors his memory and lifelong effort by adhering to his intentions.  There is plenty of room to play around in his world without stepping on toes, so I don't get why some people feel the need to intrude.  What I'd like to see is some serious works which tackle the far east and south lands, maybe even the blue wizards.  And of course the story doesn't end with The Return of the King.  It's actually more of a beginning.  

 

In the meantime, somebody get Peter Jackson a pacifier and don't let him play with other people's toys anymore.  He likes to break things.

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In the meantime, somebody get Peter Jackson a pacifier and don't let him play with other people's toys anymore.  He likes to break things.

 

I do understand how you dislike the canon being altered. I do too. Still, don't you enjoy seeing Middle-earth come to life? You can surely say some of PJ's alterations to the story and characters are unfortunate, unorthodox, or even infantile. But if that is the price for experiencing the grand visuals of the movies then I say let PJ have his fun (and his cash-in as well).

 

The orcs, Rivendell, Khazad-dum, Shire, Ring wraiths, hobbits, Smaug, Gandalf... seeing and hearing the movie versions of these is such a feast for me that I am perfectly fine with being taken on a few detours from the original Tolkien works. 

 

I for one try to treat PJ's movies (plus the video games, board games, etc.) not as just adapting the stories to a different medium, but as a re-telling of the Tolkien's world. You know, the same as you re-tell a legend to the children by the campfire. It then relieves me from this internal obligation to keep checking whether all is in orthodox Tolkienesque order. 

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Everything I read about the gameplay of this game makes me think it could be really cool.

Everytime I read about the fluff they're trying to use to explain the game it makes me wish they'd just created their own setting.

I mean really a lot of the stuff (Orc lieutenants remembering you, breaking up a chain of command) is really interesting to me - but it just doesn't make sense in the setting they chose.


The game would be so much better though if it was set in a setting where the Ranger matched the race of the people - how about the exact same game - set in the Border Princes region of the Warhammer world - using dark magic or a wraith? Or The exact same game set in a a great House in Game of Thrones (using that weird shadow magic)

Or a real world setting like the war of the three kingdoms, something ancient enough to be romanticized into having some magic.


It's a shame they didn't have the confidence to create a new IP.

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Everything I read about the gameplay of this game makes me think it could be really cool.

Everytime I read about the fluff they're trying to use to explain the game it makes me wish they'd just created their own setting.

I mean really a lot of the stuff (Orc lieutenants remembering you, breaking up a chain of command) is really interesting to me - but it just doesn't make sense in the setting they chose.

The game would be so much better though if it was set in a setting where the Ranger matched the race of the people - how about the exact same game - set in the Border Princes region of the Warhammer world - using dark magic or a wraith? Or The exact same game set in a a great House in Game of Thrones (using that weird shadow magic)

Or a real world setting like the war of the three kingdoms, something ancient enough to be romanticized into having some magic.

It's a shame they didn't have the confidence to create a new IP.

 

It's not about confidence. It's about potential customers, which will grow in numbers extremely because of the LotR franchise. Numbers of lore nerds who will skip the game are extremely low.

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Everything I read about the gameplay of this game makes me think it could be really cool.

Everytime I read about the fluff they're trying to use to explain the game it makes me wish they'd just created their own setting.

I mean really a lot of the stuff (Orc lieutenants remembering you, breaking up a chain of command) is really interesting to me - but it just doesn't make sense in the setting they chose.

What doesn't make sense about orcs having a chain of command or remembering you?

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