Purposefully late to scout at venues; a fair/legit "strategy"/behavior?

[Forensicus 883]

Hi there, just wanted to gauge what the forum users think of this. Before I dive further into it I would like to say that I do not personally like the idea AT ALL and as a TO I've felt in necessary to request that people hand in their lists at registration (no hanging around skimming/scouting the oppositions!)

I know this will most likely be controversial to some, but the reason I do not like it is that it just "doesn't feel right" and certainly it is detrimental to any desire to have a casual/open/friendly tournament feeling. Now, I'm not so naive as to expect that "everything is awesome!!" all the time and that a higher level of competitiveness is wanted and expected at top tier levels, but a major part of what I like about the game and has drawn me in to the tourneys is the friendly atmosphere and pre-/in between game talking and banter.

Well, let's hear peoples thoughts/views. But please "play nice", m'kay?!?

[DreadStar 1,124]

I don't understand. People arrive late to see what the others are playing while they are not playing because they arrived late ?

 

Anyways:

 

- Lists should be handed a few days before the event, so the TO can see if they are legal and ask those players for corrections. So seeing other people lists should make no impact.

- You already see your opponent list before playing him. 

- People talk, nobody's build will remain hidden, if you don't see it, somebody will just tell you about it.

[Duraham 750]

I personally find that there is no point to doing this at all. While yes, you get to see what 30++ people are bringing, you would only be matched against a random 4-5 of them. 

Happened in the Singapore Regionals, happened in the Malaysian Regionals. Players bringing in anti phantom / anti falcon lists expecting to do some anti-metaing. Didnt meet a single phantom / falcon list the entire day despite them being the current meta hot favourite

Edited July 25, 2014 by Duraham

[Torresse 150]

I like to leave a double falcon sitting on the table right before the tourny starts... I have never used a double falcon list in a tourny though

[Hobojebus 11,341]

I like to leave a double falcon sitting on the table right before the tourny starts... I have never used a double falcon list in a tourny though

That's evil are you sure you don't want to join the empire?

[Spaceman91 805]

I like to leave a double falcon sitting on the table right before the tourny starts... I have never used a double falcon list in a tourny though

Is that classed as trolling or antitrolling?

[Forensicus 883]

I believe that "they" would rather arrive late and do a quick scout and that way "they" wouldn't reveal their own brilliant counter.

But yes, as you say it is random who you will meet, and I certainly feel it is more of an annoyance in a smaller gaming group/area where most people know each other. But in such a smaller group it would them also be more likely to be paired up against one of "the big players" and therefor make it more important to match his/her list.

Anyways, it just doesn't "feel right" to me, and it has that eery "I'll juuuust bend the rules a little bit since it's not specifically illegal" feel to it.

Thx for the feedback so far.

And just Fly Casual

[makotosato 6]

In my opinion, you can plan all you want, but a lot of the tourney will be down to luck- whether its down to how the dice falls or the pairing- you can not and should not try to predict too much.

 

The only thing you can really do is to prepare two lists- and see which one may give you better chances looking around. In the end, eventually you will draw the rock, its just how you deal with it.

 

If you're really scared, then just hand in your paper, and only take out your stuff when the pairings are made.

 

Just bring something you are comfortable with to handle most situations.

[hecabomb 35]

I personally find that there is no point to doing this at all. While yes, you get to see what 30++ people are bringing, you would only be matched against a random 4-5 of them. 

Happened in the Singapore Regionals, happened in the Malaysian Regionals. Players bringing in anti phantom / anti falcon lists expecting to do some anti-metaing. Didnt meet a single phantom / falcon list the entire day despite them being the current meta hot favourite

 

Scouting in Malaysia totally didn't work - all the Chewies still won! 

[Khyros 4,218]

I like to leave a double falcon sitting on the table right before the tourny starts... I have never used a double falcon list in a tourny though

 

Yeah, but your GF runs the double falcon list =P

[TezzasGames 1,014]

- Lists should be handed a few days before the event, so the TO can see if they are legal and ask those players for corrections. So seeing other people lists should make no impact.

 

It's not possible or practical to do this for most tournaments.

 

It completely rules out players who want to make up their minds the day before, or even on the morning of the tournament.

 

The TO would effectively be starting his tournament a few days early, thereby preventing others from deciding to participate.

[DreadStar 1,124]

 

I like to leave a double falcon sitting on the table right before the tourny starts... I have never used a double falcon list in a tourny though

 

Yeah, but your GF runs the double falcon list =P

 

So he actually uses his GF as bait ?

Extra points for maximum trolling.

[Breaking The Law 580]

I have a friend who did this at an extremely high level, national 40k tournament. He brought 2 armies. One of which was a generally good force, and the other was a ******* ridiculous army, but had rock paper scissors syndrome. Scouted out the competition, realized that like 2% of the opposing playing field was the rock to his scissors, and ended up winning.

 

I have done it too, but in a different way. I would often bring 2 armies, one a competitive army, the other a goofy/fun list. If the tournament atmosphere seemed goofy and fun, then I would pull that one out. If everyone brought killer lists, I would bring mine out.

 

As far as x-wing though, nah. Maybe at a higher end tournament. But the local ones all have pretty goofy prizes. If someone wants to go through that trouble to win some tokens and a free card, **** em. I have bigger things to worry about.

[DreadStar 1,124]

But how does that work ? Army lists are not presented days before ? I have been playing this game for 1 month, but that's why i find the idea of the TO not having the lists 1-2 days ahead seems to be alien to me.

[AlexW 2,902]

But how does that work ? Army lists are not presented days before ? I have been playing this game for 1 month, but that's why i find the idea of the TO not having the lists 1-2 days ahead seems to be alien to me.

It is a galaxy far, far away...

There are a lot or tournaments for any minis game that dot require lists in advance and there are those that do. Xwing is such a shifting game and easy to adjust lists at the last moment that it doesn't make a lot of sense to have people locked in days before an event. Though I do find it a bit underhanded to see someone craft a list after browsing the field, whether or not it actually helps them.

Edited July 25, 2014 by AlexW

[Asgo 183]

 

- Lists should be handed a few days before the event, so the TO can see if they are legal and ask those players for corrections. So seeing other people lists should make no impact.

 

It's not possible or practical to do this for most tournaments.

 

It completely rules out players who want to make up their minds the day before, or even on the morning of the tournament.

 

The TO would effectively be starting his tournament a few days early, thereby preventing others from deciding to participate.

 

I have never been to a tournament, so I'm wondering if the TOs honestly have to check the list validity directly before the start of the games? If they really do that, they deserve that people abuse that to scout what others are fielding (to the extent possible). Nowadays, if you are not using  the internet to distribute some of the workload of the tournament organization over time (even if it is just the evening before as a deadline) it's your own fault if it gets hectic on a tournament/(insert any random event) day.

without extra knowledge the "morning list changes" aren't really necessary and knowing a day or two before an event that you want to attend, might be a good idea in any case.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Asgo

[DreadStar 1,124]

 

But how does that work ? Army lists are not presented days before ? I have been playing this game for 1 month, but that's why i find the idea of the TO not having the lists 1-2 days ahead seems to be alien to me.

It is a galaxy far, far away...

There are a lot or tournaments for any minis game that dot require lists in advance and there are those that do. Xwing is such a shifting game and easy to adjust lists at the last moment that it doesn't make a lot of sense to have people locked in days before an event. Though I do find it a bit underhanded to see someone craft a list after browsing the field, whether or not it actually helps them.

 

For competition fairness it clearly does. And that's what a tournament should aim for. As i said, i find it an alien concept not to deliver the lists beforehand. And a "you can just adjust the list because it is easy".... i will be blunt, doesn't make any sense to me. Being "locked" a few days before is not exactly like you are losing your life for it, if you are going for a tournament you have had practiced your list anyways.

 

Yes i could always adjust the list, but if i am the TO, i will ask the lists days before, inspect if they are legal and in the event, i will run walk randomly checking if the players are playing the lists they sent me.

 

Never had a problem that way.

Edited July 25, 2014 by DreadStar

[Cyberkaiju 43]

Just have a deadline for list submission wether that be the day before or an hour before, what ever works.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

A requirement that a copy be handed in 24 hours before the event starts isn't overly harsh but would solve the issue.

[Hida77 951]

I request lists at registration and validate them during rd 1.  If any are found to be in error they get a match loss and potentially DQ'ed.

 

While it is possible to scout a bit prior to registering, you are basically doing so at your own risk (since while you may see XYZ the list of the day may be ABC),  Besides, usually the meta is pretty set in stone and its not hard to determine what the 3-4 lists will be well in advance of the tournament.  As an example, the YT-1300 was everywhere at the Madness Regional, but the neither of the lists that ended up making the finals had it.  So while I could scout and decide to play something I felt was anti-falcon, I likely would have failed to make the cut if my matchups were poor or if I got outplayed at some point, so no real advantage was given. Particularly because everyone had a feeling Falcons and Phantoms would be the big lists of the day anyway so that bit of 'scouting' would have been largely obvious/irrelevant

 

Scouting also refers to people completing their matches early and walking around checking out other people's lists/playstyles.  There is less you can do about that aside from ask players to leave the playing area once they are done playing, but even that can be challenging if you are at all pressed for space.  Honestly, this is less of an issue in minis gaming on the whole, since most minis games require full disclosure of the list prior to play starting and I generally try not to worry about this unless there is some sort of obvious issue/advantage being given.

[trustybroom 570]

The thought of doing this is so foreign to me I just don't get it. I mean, the only thing you could potentially get out of it is a better chance of acquiring some plastic tokens. Playing to get tokens/prizes instead of playing to win/compete just sounds so...dumb.

 

I just like to grab the list I like to play and pit my skills against another player. That's what a tournament is really about, isn't it?

[DreadStar 1,124]

It's not a risk, since you walk around checking that people is playing the list during round 1, pretty much like you are doing anyways, but withouth the hassle of people switching and the registration proccess already done.

[Aminar 1,949]

Man you guys worry too much... I basically never have a list planned out when I get to a tournament. Not because I want to Scout, but because I have a lot of other things I do and I like trying new things. So I build once I get to the venue. And most of my venue does the same. Turning things in 24 hours in advance is rediculous. It creates a strain on the TO(ours is the atore owner and they are busy), and frankly people don't always know if they're coming till the day of.

[VanorDM 11,599]

"I'll juuuust bend the rules a little bit since it's not specifically illegal" feel to it.

What rules are being bent? This isn't a case of "rules don't say I can't" but rather that scouting the competition is not exactly an uncommon thing. I just don't think people should call something unethical just because they don't care for it.

As others have said it doesn't even really give you much of an advantage. Lets say I come to a tournament with 2 lists, a HSF and a Z-95 w/assault missile swarm. I see that half the people playing have some form of tie swarm so I register with the Z's, but it's just as likely that I'll face no swarms as it is that I will. So I didn't really gain anything.

But as a TO it's well with in your rights to stop that, by having everyone turn in their lists prior to the event actually starting.

[Hida77 951]

It's not a risk, since you walk around checking that people is playing the list during round 1, pretty much like you are doing anyways, but withouth the hassle of people switching and the registration proccess already done.

But doing so does not guarantee you winning at all, and this also means your list should have been submitted already, so there is no opportunity to switch it at this point.