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njharman

How to handle mines and set explosive attacks.

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difficulty one purple [edit miswrote green] for engaged?

 

I don't know what the "attack" dice would be.  No skill seems to apply. Maybe vigilance (for setting up good spot, waiting for best time to remote trigger)?

Edited by njharman

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Well...first, difficulty dice are purple. And mines are used with the Gunnery skill.

 

Ignoring the RAW for Gunnery weapons, I'd set the difficulty at Easy once someone activated the mine by pressure or proximity. 

 

If you're thinking of manually detonated ordnance, I dunno. Probably still Gunnery, and the difficulty is determined by the physical range from the attacking character to the target (and the mine with which the target must be engaged).

Edited by awayputurwpn

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Yeah, the skill is now Mechanics...but it doesn't really explain how that works...

 

Maybe.... you just say where you put them and when target moves into the area you make a Mechanics "attack" with a miss meaning they failed to trigger a mine?

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Yeah, the skill is now Mechanics...but it doesn't really explain how that works...

 

Maybe.... you just say where you put them and when target moves into the area you make a Mechanics "attack" with a miss meaning they failed to trigger a mine?

It really doesn't handle the idea that Despair when rigging the charges can result in a detonation well before there are even enemies in range.

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My understanding of the rules is that you make a mechanic check when constructing the bomb to determine the damage it will do.  Then you hide the bomb in the path of your adversary.  When the enemy approaches the bomb they will make an opposed perception roll against either survival or stealth.

 

I am 90% certain the opposed check is how the stun trap is placed and I see no reason to deal with explosives any differently.

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Yeah, the skill is now Mechanics...but it doesn't really explain how that works...

 

Maybe.... you just say where you put them and when target moves into the area you make a Mechanics "attack" with a miss meaning they failed to trigger a mine?

It really doesn't handle the idea that Despair when rigging the charges can result in a detonation well before there are even enemies in range.

 

Mines aren't demo charges though, if anything they are more like grenades, so you don't really "need" that effect. A despair might mean any number of other things. Maybe you planted the mine too close to another, and the explosion of the first mine disables a second removing it from your "attack" options.

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I tend to run thing in a way that means that the skill used depends on the circumstances.

 

If the players are just putting the mine down for someone to drive/walk over, use Mechanics.

 

If they're trying to hide it, use Stealth or possibly Survival, depending on the setting. You can of course use Stealth/Survival to hide it and Mechanics for damage, but that means two checks instead of one.

 

If the players want some "special effect" type of thing when the mine detonates, use Skulduggery.

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I tend to run thing in a way that means that the skill used depends on the circumstances.

 

If the players are just putting the mine down for someone to drive/walk over, use Mechanics.

 

If they're trying to hide it, use Stealth or possibly Survival, depending on the setting. You can of course use Stealth/Survival to hide it and Mechanics for damage, but that means two checks instead of one.

 

If the players want some "special effect" type of thing when the mine detonates, use Skulduggery.

 

Krieger22 has the right idea. You can also make the difficulty dependent on the stats of who is coming along relevant to the skill used. If you do that, you don't have to make Perception or Vigilance checks for the NPCs. Roll their stats into the difficulty, and BOOM you're done.

 

Maybe literally.

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Resurrecting this thread to address my question:

 

 

Perhaps mines can work by setting them simply as an incidental or maneuver (seeing as they'll more often then not be prepared ahead of time, or be laid out as a trap to the players) but the damage calculated is an opposed check if they are triggered. target's Vigilance V. the planter's Mechanics, maybe?

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Resurrecting this thread to address my question:

 

 

Perhaps mines can work by setting them simply as an incidental or maneuver (seeing as they'll more often then not be prepared ahead of time, or be laid out as a trap to the players) but the damage calculated is an opposed check if they are triggered. target's Vigilance V. the planter's Mechanics, maybe?

 

That has worked for some applications in games I've run, and games I've played in. Other times we've done the skill checks ahead of time, before the explosion event. Kinda just depends on the situation, I feel like. 

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I have to agree.  Demolitions, especially mines, in my experience have been handled as the situation warrants it (and with a lot of mishaps... I mean care :)  I like using Perception vs. Skulduggery or Survival and Vigilance vs. Mechanics.  All seem to work well (might depend on the Specs involved.  A Mechanic might be more inclined toward using Mechanics while an Outlaw Tech could use Skulduggery?)

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I have to agree.  Demolitions, especially mines, in my experience have been handled as the situation warrants it (and with a lot of mishaps... I mean care :)  I like using Perception vs. Skulduggery or Survival and Vigilance vs. Mechanics.  All seem to work well (might depend on the Specs involved.  A Mechanic might be more inclined toward using Mechanics while an Outlaw Tech could use Skulduggery?)

I guess the question is whether or not successfully setting the mine is important (Mechanics) or concealing the mine is important (Skulduggery), and that would depend on the table. I think Vigilance to oppose is vital, as that covers dealing with surprises, which landmines are supposed to be, although that, too, can vary.

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Well the book is pretty clear on what to roll for damage. It's a ranged weapon useable at engaged range. So, an Intellect(Mechanics) roll against 1 difficulty die is the base. Failure indicates that it was a dud, set up wrong, only a pop and fizzle, etc depending on threats and advantages. I would NEVER make the damage based on an opposed roll. Even two master swordsmen don't get to roll opposed checks to defend themselves. That could just be me though.

 

As for detecting a mine it's going to be a matter of preference but RAW supports Perception opposed by Skulduggery. My group tends to use the Survival skill for the opposed in wilderness areas, and I'm sure there are times in which even another skill could be used.

I don't allow vigilance to ever be rolled to detect things as that's what Perception is for, but that's a whole new topic.

 

 

 

Just an example of play from my table (which may not work for everyone):

 

Kahk Mcdogg and Magnus wanted to lay a trap for the patrols that had picked up on the party's trail.

  • I first had Kahk roll Knowledge (Warfare) to determine the best location to set up the mine to have it triggered by the patrol. He succeeded and I allowed the advantage to add a setback to notice.
  • When the patrol showed up (3 minions groups consisting of 4 scout troopers each) I rolled their Perception opposed by Kahk's Survival as he's the one who made sure it would blend in with the surrounding vegetation. YGPPRB. The patrol failed to notice and the group in front walked right into the trap.
  • I now had Magnus (the one who actually set the mine) roll for damage as above YYYPHe ended up being really lucky and rolling net 2 Successes and 2 advantage which he used to activate the blast quality resulting in 14 damage plus 8 blast damage because of his ranks in Powerful Blast. The first minion group was decimated.

As a side note, I also rolled fear checks for the remaining troopers which didn't help them at all. However, they were smart enough to fan out in case of more mines.

Edited by OfficerZan

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Treating them like a grenades doesn't make sense to me, because they aren't - they're traps. They don't use a Ranged skill, so throwing one doesn't work (and if you do, based on the range, you'd kill yourself); they use Mechanics, which implies they take some thought and methodology to utilize. From the description (all fluff, which I have found to be regarded as secondary to rules and stats in some cases) all I can do is assume (and guess what that makes you and me?) they trigger when stepped on or tripped in some way, so I take the range to mean that it has a maximum blast radius and area of effect. So what I considered was they are intended to be used before an encounter happens, or to possible hamper pursuers.

 

Then I considered dice - you roll Mechanics because that's what it says, but then what? Do you roll ahead of time and keep log of the results in the hopes that the trap will be sprung? Seems unusual, and nothing else does that. And if you do that, how do you work in the target's defenses, or talents? That would be telling, and if the mine doesn't trigger, it would be a pointless roll. And I rationalize the difficulty of a regular ranged combat check and the successes that add to damage to be, first, imposed due to the environment (distance from target and reaction time therefore) and, second, the physical training, body control and hand-eye coordination of the user (i.e. Agility) allowing him to make a good shot. The game also generally discourages making multiple rolls on a single thing, instead encouraging a single roll be the determining factor.

 

So my concept of using an opposed rule. I don't personally view the example of a sword duel to be quite equatable, as its not a case of "my kung fu is better than your kung fu", but a matter of laying a trap and hoping that your target both runs into it and doesn't notice it ahead of time. So the opposed check of the target's Vigilance (dealing with unexpected events and surprises - like, say, a landmine) opposed by the landminer(???) not being a completely incompetent doof (or his Mechanics), with things like the target's defense and talents adding Boost.

 

That's my train of thought reasoning on the matter, and I'm not completely happy with it, but I can forgo the need for multiple checks. My idea may hold no water but I will use it as a dam anyway. You're probably on target, though. I should consider dropping a question to the developers.

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Treating them like a grenades doesn't make sense to me, because they aren't - they're traps. They don't use a Ranged skill, so throwing one doesn't work (and if you do, based on the range, you'd kill yourself); they use Mechanics, which implies they take some thought and methodology to utilize. From the description (all fluff, which I have found to be regarded as secondary to rules and stats in some cases) all I can do is assume (and guess what that makes you and me?) they trigger when stepped on or tripped in some way, so I take the range to mean that it has a maximum blast radius and area of effect. So what I considered was they are intended to be used before an encounter happens, or to possible hamper pursuers.

No one is saying they are treated as grenades. However, for the sake of rolling they follow ranged attack rolls. The range listed is when the attacks can be made (thus triggered) the range for blasts is always engaged as stated in the Blast quality description.

 

And yes, mines are usually laid ahead of time. A skilled sabatuer hwoever can use talents to plop it down and either be uneffected or leave the area before the explosion if the GM rules there is enough time (doubtful).

 

Then I considered dice - you roll Mechanics because that's what it says, but then what? Do you roll ahead of time and keep log of the results in the hopes that the trap will be sprung? Seems unusual, and nothing else does that. And if you do that, how do you work in the target's defenses, or talents? That would be telling, and if the mine doesn't trigger, it would be a pointless roll. And I rationalize the difficulty of a regular ranged combat check and the successes that add to damage to be, first, imposed due to the environment (distance from target and reaction time therefore) and, second, the physical training, body control and hand-eye coordination of the user (i.e. Agility) allowing him to make a good shot. The game also generally discourages making multiple rolls on a single thing, instead encouraging a single roll be the determining factor.

 Simply you roll when the attack takes place, just like in my example above. The only time you may want to roll ahead of time is if it is going to take place off-screen such as laying the trap and then fleeing the area before seeing if successful. This can be used for suspense. "It's been quite some time and you knew your pursuers should have triggered it by now, but you haven't heard any explosions. Something must have gone wrong," for example. Even then I would just build the pool, and not roll which would allow players to spend destiny points. If you do allow an actual roll, keep the results secret and just ask the player i he'd rather focus on crits or the blast quality if there are enough advantages/triumphs.

 

Everything you said above comes into play when rolling. It is a ranged attack at engaged range (1 Difficulty Die) the target's defense, talents, etc all come into play on the roll just as normal. It's engaged range from the mine to the target, this is true even if the mine-layer is still across the galaxy. This can increase/upgrade the difficulty, add setback dice, etc and destiny points can be spent as normal.

 

As for the multiple rolls part, rolling to detect the mine, and rolling for damage are two seperate things. It's the same as rolling to see if you notice an attacker waiting in the shadows and then rolling initiative to see i you can get to him first.

 

So my concept of using an opposed rule. I don't personally view the example of a sword duel to be quite equatable, as its not a case of "my kung fu is better than your kung fu", but a matter of laying a trap and hoping that your target both runs into it and doesn't notice it ahead of time. So the opposed check of the target's Vigilance (dealing with unexpected events and surprises - like, say, a landmine) opposed by the landminer(???) not being a completely incompetent doof (or his Mechanics), with things like the target's defense and talents adding Boost.

 

That's my train of thought reasoning on the matter, and I'm not completely happy with it, but I can forgo the need for multiple checks. My idea may hold no water but I will use it as a dam anyway. You're probably on target, though. I should consider dropping a question to the developers.

Vigilance does't deal with preventing the unexpected, it deals with reacting to the unexpected happening or preperation to deal with such. Rolling to see if you brought your equipment to deal with mines because you believed the area may be boobytrapped is a vigliance roll, as is rolling initiative after the mine goes off. If you want to do an opposed roll for spotting the mine it's going to be Perception hands-down as that's what the skill is for. Sorry, that's a personal pet-peeve so I tend to get worked up, but moving on.

My example of the sword combat is just that there are no attacks that use opposed rolls (that I am aware of). Combat is balanced for the use of dificulty dice. Just because mines use mechanics shouldn't change that. The defender still gets to add applicale talents, defenses, soak, etc to the roll just as with a normal attack. As stated above.

 

If you make it an opposed roll, the mines will practically become useless as the "attack" is going to end up failing much more frequently and even if they do succeed, they will almost never have enough advantage to activate the blast quality. An even roll (Green, Yellow, and Blue against the same number of Purple, Red, and Black) will have an average result of Success with Threat.

 

 

 

As you have pointed out, this is mainly assumptions on both parts and is definitely something that could be clarified some more by devs, but I thought I'd give a detailed response anyways. Hopefully it doesn't seem argumentative or like pointless yammering xD.

Edited by OfficerZan

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Well roll when setting them up, then deal that amount of damage to the target.

That's pretty much it. You roll ahead of time to see if you despair or get three Threat which could lead to premature explosion. Other than that, then a target rolls/hovers over the mine it goes off with the damage you rolls.

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I approach them entirely by perspective.

 

The builder/emplacement rolls to successfully build and/or place the mine.  The successes  of their rolls establish the base "difficulty" of the mine.

 

The targets roll to avoid/detect/determine damage from the mine. 

 

Exactly what they roll against what skill depends on how they narrate their effort.  

 

For the Targets a Triumph can mean the mine failed to explode.  

For the Builders a Triumph can mean an upgrade of a Difficulty die to Challenge on the Targets roll.  

 

All in all, I try to not get bogged down in rigid chart reading, and instead use the charts as examples and suggestions, and then determine die pools based on the PC's narrative. 

 

Sometimes (in other threads) it may sound like I am trying to rules lawyer or try and get a lot of ironclad rules put out.  But I am really looking for more samples of the way the writers interpret things to give me a better feel and more examples so my games can flow easier. 

 

The books may call out Skill A as the one to use, but if the player can give a great and imaginative solid sounding narrative reason Skill B would work, I'll go with it.   Given the choice of RAW or "in the moment Role-playing awesomeness", Awesomeness wins ;)

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