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Jamwes

True Aim Question

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Technically, as long as you take strain for the second maneuver to Aim (since you only get one maneuver per round, and you're already using up your maneuver for True Aim), then yes.  There's a bit of debate going on about True Aim in another thread, and I'm watching it carefully.  It seems a bit overpowered - for one maneuver, you can upgrade your attack a number of times equal to your ranks in True Aim - especially when someone starts taking the Sharpshooter talent tree.  I'm considering adding a Strain cost (one per rank) to the use of True Aim.  I'm also considering one for Deadly Accuracy.

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RAW, yes you can. The ECRB states Aim can be used to provide the character with one of these two benefits. Gain a boost die OR target a specific item or part of the target. 

To do what you ask Jamwes, Using true Aim talent with aim, you spend one maneuver for True Aim, and your one action to pull the trigger. 

So, you use True Aim to aim, you pick which of the two benefits you get from aiming; either the boost die, or the two setback die to Target. (If you spent your last maneuver on your last turn aiming, and have not been fired at, this can be reduced to one setback), Then True Aim will allow you one upgrade per rank of TA. 

 

P145 ECRB "Once per round, before the character makes a ranged attack, he may perform a True Aim maneuver. By performing this maneuver, the character gains all the benefits for aiming and also upgrades his attack roll once per rank of True Aim."

 

SO this all can be don in one maneuver and one action. The choice is yours, the Boost, or the Setbacks. to Target. You do not need to do a second maneuver to do what you ask.  

 

Simon, why would make a PC or even NPC spend strain on deadly Accuracy? Would you also make them spend Strain then for Feral Strength? Both add +1 Damage per Rank. Feral can be used with Brawl or Melee, DA you have choose ONE combat skill when the talent is acquired. 

 

By adding in the cost of Strain to all these talents, I can guess what every advantage will be spent on now...So much for the narrative system. 

 

I could maybe see creating a house rule that could potentially limit the number of True Aim talents equal to your Agility or something. 

 

Hope this helps clarify a little for you Jamwes.

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I misread the original question as asking if it could be done as a separate Aim, thus my answer.

 

Simon, why would make a PC or even NPC spend strain on deadly Accuracy? Would you also make them spend Strain then for Feral Strength? Both add +1 Damage per Rank. Feral can be used with Brawl or Melee, DA you have choose ONE combat skill when the talent is acquired. 

 

By adding in the cost of Strain to all these talents, I can guess what every advantage will be spent on now...So much for the narrative system. 

 

Deadly Accuracy and Feral Strength don't do the same thing.  Feral Strength adds +1 damage per rank of Feral Strength to a Melee or Brawl check.  Deadly Accuracy, on the other hand, adds a number of damage equal to your rank in a particular skill to one hit of an attack.

 

So... one rank of Feral Strength used with a skill at Rank 4 does +1 damage.  One rank of Deadly Accuracy used with an associated skill at Rank 4 does +4 damage.  Not the same.

 

Let's say one acquires four ranks of Feral Strength, and another person acquires two ranks of Deadly Accuracy.  Now they're similar, only Deadly Accuracy can be used with any of the five combat skills (choose one with each rank), and seems to be placed in talent trees that focus on Ranged (Heavy) combat (Assassin, Gadgeteer, Mercenary Soldier, and Sharpshooter), which already do significantly more damage than any other damage specializations.

 

That's why I'm considering adding a strain cost to Deadly Accuracy, and why I wouldn't consider adding one to Feral Strength.

Edited by Simon Fix
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It is a minor point but DA operates just a little different than you stated.  In the talents chapter it states that it adds successes to the roll per skill level of the given skill.  It is also a passive skill that is always active.  So it can potentially make a shot that misses hit.

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I think you might have the wrong talent, Satchmo.

 

Page 134:  "Each time the character gains a rank of Deadly Accuracy, he must choose one combat skill.  The character may add his basic training ranks in that combat skill as additional damage to one hit of that skill made with a non-starship/vehicle weapon.  He cannot choose the same combat skill twice." (Emphasis mine.)

Edited by Simon Fix
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@Simon, you are correct that I missed typed my info on Feral and Deadly.

I still don't understand your need to put a strain cost with DA. The Talent costs 25 XP. It can give a bonus to ONE skill picked at acquisition up to a +5 damage, to get five ranks in a skill will cost 60 XP if his first two ranks were picked up at creation, if not then it could be 75XP, this is pretty high XP cost. Feral Strength can picked up for a total of 30 XP for the three ranks, giving a + 3 damage to melee and brawl attacks. So if I have two free ranks in melee, I can be looking at weapon damage + 3 for 30 XP. Or 105 XP to go down the tree the quickest way to get the three FS. To get the same for Deadly Accuracy will cost 15 for third rank of ranged, plus 100 to get to DA for a total of 115 XP.

So you are wanting to put a strain cost on something that costs 10 XP more for the same level of added damage? True you can get two more ranks in your ranged for another 45 XP. So for 160 XP I can get a + 5 damage to ONE combat skill of my choice. With FS it will cost 105 for my +3. I still don't see why you would want to charge strain for this. Would you charge one strain for each rank they had in Ranged *Skill? So to use DA with 5 ranks of Ranged Skill would cost 5 Strain? I can do this maybe 2 times in a combat encounter then. That is pretty high price to pay.

As far as people wanting to put a strain cost on True Aim, the thing is that with this Talent; to borrow from older systems, is a "full-round action" I have to spend an action and my maneuver to use it. Things like Frenzied Attack are just one action. That is why there is a strain cost for FA and not True Aim. They are not the same thing, and can not be looked at the same way.

By adding in the cost of strain to everything just makes this a resource management game...and really limits the narrative of the system. Now very advantage will just be used to buy back strain....wow, talk about boring.

I understand people can run their games how they want to, and I don't have to follow their "rules", but I do not understand the logic or this "need" to change the game rules to make it "better" or more "balanced" when it is already balanced. If a player does nothing every turn but stand there and aims for True Shot, every time, that is not a problem with the mechanics of this system.

I have seen the same thing on The Force, everyone wanting to add a strain cost to using Force Powers... I don't get that. Then go play RCR where you spend Vitality to run those powers, or Saga where I can only use my force power cards one time in each encounter... This game is not about resource management...

So Simon, all I ask for is your explanation of why you say you are thinking/feel the need about adding a strain to DA. I fail to see the need for it. Yes a lot of talents do cost Strain to use, but those are for the ones that only require an action/ maneuver to pull it off, leaving you your maneuver/action free to use. Some of the other ones like True Aim that do not require strain are using both the Action and Maneuver to use. To me that is what makes this system balanced.

Strain is a static number that does not go up without special talents, and RAW improving Will will not raise your Strain Threshold. So unlike a "level-up" game, your Thresholds don't improve without buying special Talents.

My new house rule: when you roll Vigilance you have to spend the number of ranks you have in it on Strain because you are being vigilant and using your mental fortitude up...Oh, the same for cool, because you can only be so cool so much...:) I'm just messing around with you!! :)

The number one thing with this game is too have fun, if you and your guys/gals are having fun, then you are doing it right. But when I see people wanting to change the rules, I just want to know why, and what the change will bring to the game. Will adding in Strain cost actually make the game better and more "funner" for everyone?

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I have one player (so far) with Deadly Accuracy - a Bounty Hunter Gadgeteer/Assassin, and I've never had a problem with it being too powerful. He picked Ranged (light) as the skill to boost, seeing as how that's the most commonly used weapon category by far in my campaign (I play most local law enforcement as being profoundly suspicious of people carrying rifles around in the street). His Ranged (light) skill is 3, and he's using a blaster pistol with the blaster actuating module attachment for a total damage of 11, plus successes. It's a nice boost, sure, but it's hardly unbalancing. Some players are always going to have a higher damage output than others - for my group it's this guy and the Gand Marauder/Bodyguard who does the most damage in any given fight. I don't see it as a problem to let them shine in combat, the other players get to do their thing in other situations.

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You're really good at cherry picking numbers, R2, but let's look at real XP costs, shall we?

 

First off is your claim that getting three ranks of Feral Strength is 30XP.  It's not, it's 35.  Under the Marauder tree, there's one rank at 5XP, one at 10XP, and one at 20XP.

 

Second is that you aren't bothering to add total talent tree costs.  Just getting to that third rank is going to cost the Marauder 100XP, where getting to the first rank of Deadly Accuracy (the only rank the character needs) is 75XP (25XP for the talent, 55XP for the talents leading up to it).  

 

Let's try to balance them out, however.  To do that, we'll start at the two ranks in a skill a character can pick up during creation.  XP costs are post-creation, assuming neither character picked up talents during creation (but rather spent their XP on characteristics and skills).

  • At two ranks of Melee and three ranks of Feral Strength, the Marauder does +3 damage from Feral Strength.  (Skill + Talent Cost: 100XP)
  • At two ranks of Ranged (Heavy) and one rank of Deadly Accuracy, Assassin does +2 damage from Deadly Accuracy.  (Skill + Talent Cost: 75XP)

It looks like Feral Strength has an edge at lower power levels.  Now let's add another skill rank to the Assassin and figure in XP costs to narrow the margin.

  • At two ranks of Melee and three ranks of Feral Strength, the Marauder does +3 damage from Feral Strength. (Skill + Talent Cost: 100XP)
  • At three ranks of Ranged (Heavy) and one rank of Deadly Accuracy, Assassin does +3 damage from Deadly Accuracy.  (Skill + Talent Cost: 90XP)

For a mere 15XP, Deadly Accuracy caught up, and still cost 15XP less.  Let's move them both up to doing +4 damage from their talent.  To do that, the Marauder is going to have to take the Commando spec, in order to get his fourth rank in Feral Strength.

  • At two ranks of Melee and four ranks of Feral Strength, the Marauder/Commando does +4 damage from Feral Strength. (Skill + Talent Cost: 160XP - Commando cost 30XP, then getting the next Feral Strength is another 30XP.)
  • At four ranks of Ranged (Heavy) and one rank of Deadly Accuracy, Assassin does +3 damage from Deadly Accuracy.  (Skill + Talent Cost: 110XP)

The XP cost for each is starting to show here.  Let's bump it all the way up to five bonus damage.  (Believe me, you're going to have players pushing to get there as quickly as they can.  Not all, but some.)

  • At two ranks of Melee and five ranks of Feral Strength, the Marauder/Commando does +4 damage from Feral Strength. (Skill + Talent Cost: 205XP - Getting that fifth rank in Feral Strength is going to cost 45XP.)
  • At four ranks of Ranged (Heavy) and one rank of Deadly Accuracy, Assassin does +3 damage from Deadly Accuracy.  (Skill + Talent Cost: 135XP)

At this point, the only advantage Feral Strength has over Deadly Accuracy is that it can be used by two different combat skills - Brawl and Melee.  But let's be sensible.  First, how many characters actually use more than one attack skill?  I've been DMing, GMing, Narrating, Storytelling, and just generally running games for nearly thirty years now, and the vast majority of players are going to stick to the skill they have the most ranks in.  So your average Marauder/Commando isn't going to use Brawl, he's going use Melee for that +3 vibro-ax he's swinging around.  Not to mention, Deadly Accuracy balances this out by letting you choose which skill you'll be using it in, not limiting you to just two.

 

Oh, we can go further, if you want.  Like how Ranged (Heavy) is by far the most damaging weapon type in the game, especially for the XP costs, but I think the numbers already stand for themselves.

Will I give it a strain cost?  I don't know.  I said I was considering it.  Now you know why.

 

As for "fun"... that's sort of the point.  I've got two Ranged (Heavy) users in my group of seven players, and between huge damage and autofire, they usually mow most opponents down before the lone Marauder in the group even through a first target.

 

Look... let's say a Ranged (Heavy) user has a Heavy Blaster Rifle - a weapon not too difficult to pick up at character creation, if you're savvy with your extra Obligation.  Now, without modding the weapon at all, the Heavy Blaster Rifle is doing 10 damage.  Now, that rifleman also has autofire, so with an added difficulty die and a couple Advantages, he's going to do 10 damage times two.

 

Now jump forward in time and he's got four ranks of Ranged (Heavy), he's picked up Deadly Accuracy, and he's modded the weapon so it does an additional two damage and generates a free Advantage on a successful hit.  Suddenly he's doing 16 damage on the first hit (10 base, +2 for mods, +4 for DA) and each additional autofire hit is only costing him 1 Advantage to do 12 more damage.

 

Do you see where the problem might lie?  I don't mind the idea that players are powerful.  I mind the idea that two combat characters can never be equal if they both spend XP to their greatest advantage.  (Oh, and the Marauder in our group sort of minds, too... and it's part of my job to help him find fun in the game too, right?)

Edited by Simon Fix

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Simon, you were right about the extra damage rather than the extra successes.  I wonder what I was reading?  Anyway.

 

In Simon's defense he runs a fair game and converses with his players about the best way to go.  The example he uses about the auto firing bounty hunter is the path that my character initially started down while sitting at his table.  After talking it out we decided that my character averaging over 50 damage per round was not only unbalanced but did not feel like starwars.  So we made some modifications.

 

The other guy he is talking about actually uses gunnery with his sidewinder and auto fire.  He is correct that when the two of us go full combat mode there is little left for anyone else to do.  Something we have been doing as a group over the last month is working to find ways to get everyone more involved.  

 

Thanks for running Simon.

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The other guy he is talking about actually uses gunnery with his sidewinder and auto fire.  He is correct that when the two of us go full combat mode there is little left for anyone else to do.  Something we have been doing as a group over the last month is working to find ways to get everyone more involved.  

 

 

D'oh!  Forgot that was your username, man.  *chuckles*  And the other person I was thinking about was the Bothan Survivalist in the group.  I hadn't even gotten to the Heavy.  *grins*

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You're really good at cherry picking numbers, R2, but let's look at real XP costs, shall we?

 

First off is your claim that getting three ranks of Feral Strength is 30XP.  It's not, it's 35.  Under the Marauder tree, there's one rank at 5XP, one at 10XP, and one at 20XP.

 

First, I apologize about my mistakes on the math. they were unintentional. I wasn't trying to skew the numbers one way or another. 

 

You're really good at cherry picking numbers, R2, but let's look at real XP costs, shall we?

 

First off is your claim that getting three ranks of Feral Strength is 30XP.  It's not, it's 35.  Under the Marauder tree, there's one rank at 5XP, one at 10XP, and one at 20XP.

 

Second is that you aren't bothering to add total talent tree costs.  Just getting to that third rank is going to cost the Marauder 100XP, where getting to the first rank of Deadly Accuracy (the only rank the character needs) is 75XP (25XP for the talent, 55XP for the talents leading up to it).  

 

 Marauder: Feral Strength 5, Heroic Fort 10, Toughened 10, Feral Strength 10, LB 15, End. 15, Tough 20, Feral Strength 20. Is 105 XP going the fastest way to get all three Feral Strength.

Hired Gun: Second Wind 5, Confidence 10, Command 15, Grit 20, True aim 25, Deadly Accuracy 25 = 100

Not 75. So lets add that 25 back into all your other calculations. 

Is that a cherry in your post as well? 

 

With the Marauder other talents directly effect his combat check as well, like Lethal blows giving a +10 to crits.

 

As far as weapons/weapon mods and other talent trees, that is purely in the hands of the GM. Equipment is equipment and can come and go. Allowing players to access other trees from other books is totally in the hands of the GM. Especially AoR, which is branded as a separate game. 

I my self am debating if I will allow EotE characters access to AoR tress. But this is a thing for me and my group. (If a player only wanted the Gunner tree to just get more True Aims...??) 

Well, Simon, we have both made some mistakes on our mathings, no big deal either way. But thank you for your well thought out response and reasoning for explaining why you are thinking of adding in a strain cost to DA. I am still not convinced it is right for me. Since I am the GM, and will probably never get to just play, I don't think I will have to worry about someone just trying to implement stuff like this on me. 

I don't have the other books with me, they are on a boat somewhere in the Atlantic for another week or two, I can't really see how these will really stack up in the long run. But if a player can buy 2-3 tress of specs down to the bottom, I can imagine the NPCs must have quite a few ranks in Adversary, and must be facing a few at a time. 

The only thing I can say about your Marauder is give him some more up close combat, I have found Star Wars to be geared towards the ranged spectrum of combat. Just because 2 ranged guys can mow down baddies before the melee guy can get in range, well, you can penalize the ranged guys for doing what they were designed to do, but I don't really think that will fix your, or your marauder's problem. In the end, your justification is well sounded and reasoned, better than most I have seen...So no matter what you do, making DA or even TA cost Strain or not, or leaving it alone and giving your marauder more up close encounters, I wish you the best of luck, and with seven players.... :wacko:

 

Oh, do the players mind a Strain cost, and what were thinking of the cost being?

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How about you use the talent tree I was using...

 

Assassin:  Lethal Blows (5XP) > Jump Up (10XP) > Stalker (15XP) > Jump Up (20XP) > Deadly Accuracy (25XP).  Total is 75XP.

 

... because if you really want to pick another talent tree, I could have gone for one that gets Deadly Accuracy for even less.

 

Gadgeteer:  Toughened (5XP) > Jury Rigged (10XP) > Armor Master (15XP) > Tinkerer (20XP) > Deadly Accuracy (20XP).  Total is 70XP.

 

Sharpshooter:  Sniper Shot (5XP) > True Aim (10XP) > Lethal Blows (15XP) > Deadly Accuracy (20XP).  Total is 50XP.

 

So no, no cherries in my pie, but I can see you're willing to keep picking them.

 

And yes, I need to give my players more up-close combat.  That doesn't change the basic inequity of the character specializations as it is.  How do they feel about it?  I don't know.  As I've repeatedly said, I'm considering a strain cost, but I haven't decided on one.  I'll talk to my players before I make any huge changes like that - I always do.

Edited by Simon Fix

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Do you see where the problem might lie?  

Simon, it sounds like your problem might lie in group size. It's hard running a game for 7 players; in my experience, it results in at least one player feeling left out or not getting to use his skills very much.

It's possible that part of the problem is also in encounter design. Perhaps design encounters and even adventures where HBRs are impractical or where your party is in split scenes. It shouldn't be that hard to occasionally nerf your heavy blaster rifle PCs.

The numbers above are all well and good, but I'm afraid it's all another example of cherry picking, but on a grander scale.

1) these talents and skills don't exist in a vacuum. There are many other talents to be purchased in between all the purchases mentioned that serve your character in many ways.

2) insisting that a melee character and an autofire rifle character should be "balanced" in this sense (where apparently foes are getting mowed down by autofire) is kind of like claiming that a Commander with Leadership abilities should be able to patch people up as well as a doctor with Medicine and the Bacta Specialist talent. The melee specialist is a completely different animal. Put him in at long range in an empty room with a HRB user, and you know who wins that fight. "You don't bring a knife to a gun fight." But look for ways, as a GM and a player, for the melee specialist to shine where he should be shining: at close range, dishing out damaging and taking the hits, knocking people down, and likely doing other impressive acts of Athletics and Resilience.

3) some players make a one-trick-pony character, and some like to be versatile. Nothing wrong with amping up both Brawl and Melee.

4) what about the situations where HRBs are illegal or impractical? Suddenly the melee character is looking pretty good!

But yeah with 7 players...yikes. I don't know how you get anything done! Hope the fixes you've implemented and are thinking of implementing go well for the group. I am also of the opinion that adding more strain costs would make it too much of a strain-management game, but I guess if Advantage is always being used to activate autofire, then having to use it to bolster strain isn't a bad idea :)

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As far as people wanting to put a strain cost on True Aim, the thing is that with this Talent; to borrow from older systems, is a "full-round action" I have to spend an action and my maneuver to use it. Things like Frenzied Attack are just one action. That is why there is a strain cost for FA and not True Aim. They are not the same thing, and can not be looked at the same way.

By adding in the cost of strain to everything just makes this a resource management game...and really limits the narrative of the system. Now very advantage will just be used to buy back strain....wow, talk about boring.

 

I think the reason why people want to add a strain cost to True Aim is because talents that are similar cost strain per rank. Precise Aim is one such talent. For a Precise Aim maneuver you suffer 1 strain per rank and reduce the Defence by that much. You don't get the normal Aim effects. Removing a black die is the same, if not worse, than adding a blue and getting an upgrade. To me, these two talents should either both cost strain or both not.

 

As written, everyone goes for True Aim and no one takes Precise Aim. Which means that either True Aim is too good, Precise Aim is bad, or both.

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Not all talent are created equal. But that doesn't mean that they are mutually exclusive. Not every talent has to be "as good" as all the other talents.

 

Take Precise Aim and True Aim. You can use them both to improve the same Ranged combat check. 

 

Also, something I meant to mention in the previous post: the Marauder with Feral Strength can also take Deadly Accuracy for an even bigger damage boost. 

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Okay... I just went out, got some fresh air, did some grocery shopping, and came back to this thread to reread it.

 

... and I'd like to apologize.

 

While I still stand by everything I've said in this thread, I could have said it with fewer turds in my mouth.

 

awayputurwpn, I agree that large groups can be a problem, but that hasn't been the case with this group.  We get quite a bit done, and have a lot of fun doing it.  I've got somewhere in the range of thirty years experience running games, and I've GM'd for groups as big as a dozen people - now THAT can be an issue - but this group works well together (mostly), and we've only run into a couple minor issues.

 

As far as that Marauder taking Deadly Accuracy, sure... he could.  But it would take grabbing a specialization from out of his career, all of which seem to be focused on ranged attacks, which aren't much good to him.  (Assassin might work, though, since it is a bit more balanced.)  Maybe I'll suggest that to him.

Edited by Simon Fix
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Not all talent are created equal. But that doesn't mean that they are mutually exclusive. Not every talent has to be "as good" as all the other talents.

 

Take Precise Aim and True Aim. You can use them both to improve the same Ranged combat check. 

 

The problem is probably that Precise Aim isn't good enough, not that True Aim is too good. People already see Precise Aim as the same as a normal Aim because the black should be countered by the blue. Why spend XP to go down the leg of a single tree that you can easily skip to pick up a talent that causes strain is functionally not any better than just taking a normal Aim? I'd prefer that they took the strain requirement off Precise Aim, or let it be in addition to a normal Aim.

 

As for True Aim, in EotE it was balanced because it was a 25xp talent in a single tree, so not many people took it. With AoR, it's fairly easy to get twice in Sharpshooter. I think the problem people are seeing is when someone picks up all four True Aim. For a single maneuver they get four upgrades and a blue. That seems crazy good. Possibly worth it due to all of the XP the player would have to invest to be able to do it, but really **** good. It means you can be untrained with a gun with only two Agility but still get to roll three yellow and a blue. I'd say it's one of the top combat talents in the game when you can pick it up for cheep in Sharpshooter. One or two ranks seems ok, but beyond that and it starts to seem over powered pretty quickly.

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Precise Aim is really nice in an encounter where you have lots of maneuvers to spend. Like if you're setting up a sniping shot on an unaware target, or if someone rolls a bunch of Threat against you and the GM shoots you a free maneuver. You can only use two maneuvers to aim, so that third maneuver against that armored target might as well be Precise Aim! 

 

This line of discussion has happened once before, so we probably shouldn't get into too much, but the point is that Precise Aim can be useful and IMO it's balanced well. (not to stifle any other comments...I was just summarizing my previous evaluations of the talent in a months-old thread somewhere around here...!)

Edited by awayputurwpn

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@Simon. I'm not here to cherry pick numbers to make my "argument" seem more valid than your ideas. Since the OP was about True Aim, then we got talking about Deadly Accuracy and Frenzied Attack, I was looking at the Hired Gun: Marauder and Mercenary trees. I am not trying to argue with you or tell you that you can't add a strain cost to anything. I am legitimately and sincerely trying to understand why it is you want to do this, and understand your system for it. I am not trying to tell you or convince not too. I am sorry if you read any of my posts to you in any manner other than friendly banter. You seem to have a legitimate case for wanting to modifying DA. I was just trying to see why you would not assign the same thing to FA. I thought the XP costs were about the same, not taking into account the Gadgateer or Assassin trees. I am not intentionally skewing anything to make one point of view stronger than another.

Like I said, you seem to have a sound idea and reason for doing this. Better reasons than most... Which I have seen mainly as either "because I can" or "that's how it was in X system". Which are fine, but if that is the reasoning for a house rule, I don't think people should get mad at others that call it what it is.

So I as I said in my last post, regardless if you change DA or not, I wish you the best in your game. In my last part of my post to you, I had asked about if you had talked with your players about this and what the cost might be. This was not a condescending question. (Your reply seemed you took it that way.) I was genuinely interested in hearing your players thoughts on this. I am very interested to keep abreast with this if you do change it, and see how it effects your game and player balance.

So my line of questioning to you and my counter thoughts are nothing more than trying to understand your point of view on this. It does not matter if we agree or not. If that were the case, let me sell you my religious ideas and political party... And again, I do wish you and your merry band of 7 Dwarves the best of luck with the game.

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