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Joe Boss Red Seven

Yes TURRETS Are Part Of This Game.

57 posts in this topic

I see the complaint about turrets often, followed by a Dogfighting reference as if a real game based on WWI & WWII is not true to history or whatever if there are spinning guns.

:rolleyes:

 

This is wrong first of all and it does not give any merit to the argument against turrets being in a "dogfight game".

 

The fact is that Machine guns and Cannons have been set into turrets since the modern wars.

:)

 

duxford7.jpg

 

 

pb4y1erco70.jpg

 

Respect the wisdom of our Fathers!

;)

 

Those turrets have blind spots :) .

 

I don't dislike turrets being in the game, I dislike how the Falcon / Decimator / Outrider omni turrets were handled (well ignore the outrider as to go above two dice, it loses a range band). The Flacon as it is further encouraged Tie Swarms (as if they needed any more encouragement) and pretty much single handily invalidates a good number of builds from being competitive.

 

Also, if we have a ship that ignores ships that survive based only on their maneuverability, should we not also have a ship that ignores ships that survive purely on their tankiness (such as ignoring shields)? I don't like either.

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I don't dislike turrets being in the game, I dislike how the Falcon / Decimator / Outrider omni turrets were handled (well ignore the outrider as to go above two dice, it loses a range band). The Flacon as it is further encouraged Tie Swarms (as if they needed any more encouragement) and pretty much single handily invalidates a good number of builds from being competitive.

 

 

 

 

The Outrider can mount an HLC or Ion cannon that has range 3.   This would make it the only 360 degree Ion cannon with range 3 in the game, and the only attack 4 ship with 360 degree firing arc.  I for one am really looking forward to this ship!

 

As for the OP. Turrets bring tons of balance to this game.  I'm glad they are here and I'm glad the Imp's are getting one.

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I think the Knife to a Gun fight argument (AKA interceptor & A Wing) is wrong surely every ship in the game SHOULD have something in some way against any other combination of ship.

 

Otherwise why have that ship?

 

Otherwise Meta is everything

Edited by Lilikin
mazz0 likes this

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I don't dislike turrets being in the game, I dislike how the Falcon / Decimator / Outrider omni turrets were handled (well ignore the outrider as to go above two dice, it loses a range band). The Flacon as it is further encouraged Tie Swarms (as if they needed any more encouragement) and pretty much single handily invalidates a good number of builds from being competitive.

 

 

 

 

The Outrider can mount an HLC or Ion cannon that has range 3.   This would make it the only 360 degree Ion cannon with range 3 in the game, and the only attack 4 ship with 360 degree firing arc.  I for one am really looking forward to this ship!

 

As for the OP. Turrets bring tons of balance to this game.  I'm glad they are here and I'm glad the Imp's are getting one.

 

Remember, the Outrider title disables your primary weapon. The HLC makes it so that it cannot ever damage ships a range band 1. Yes the Outrider Ion Cannon-Turret would be the most potent Ion weapon in the game, but then you are spending 40+ points on a ship that will never contribute more than 1 point of damage a turn.

Engine25 and Hobojebus like this

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I think the Knife to a Gun fight argument (AKA interceptor & A Wing) is wrong surely every ship in the game SHOULD have something in some way against any other combination of ship.

 

Otherwise why have that ship?

 

Otherwise Meta is everything

Here's the thing. As soon as the Falcon can't reliably one shot the ship.(Hull upgrade on Interceptors) it no longer hard counters them. Soontir Fel with Hull upgrade, two focuses, and an evade can pretty easily make a Falcon take 3-4 hits to kill him. That murders the Falcon lists minimal firepower. Marksmanship Gunner Falcons counter him pretty hard, but at a minimum of 50 points that's got its own set of issues.

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I fly Han Solo occasionally. I take him with nothing other than Veteran Instincts now that Whisper is around. He is incredibly effective. I just fly over after the initial joust and then do bizarre, unpredictable moves and skirt the combat so that I am very rarely in the arc of more than one enemy ship.

 

If the turrets were overpowered, the solution would not be to make the more expensive (then they will just be impossible to use). The solution is to make them less effective. Give an extra green die if outside of the turret ship's arc or something simple like that. However, I am not sure that a solution is necessary regardless of whether flying a flanker squadron against two YT-1300s is an auto loss.

 

Chewie's Falcon

The MF!

60 points

60 points
Chewbacca
5
 
Unique
When you are dealt a faceup damage card, immediately flip it facedown (without resolving its ability).
Chewbacca/YT-1300 (42)
Push the Limit (3)
– Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token.
Cluster Missiles (4)
– Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack twice. Attack value: 3. Range: 1-2.
C3-PO (3)
– Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of evade.png results. If you roll that many evade.png results (before modifying the dice), add 1 evade.png result.
Lando Calrissian (3)
– Action: Roll 2 defense dice. For each focus.png result, assign 1 focus token to your ship. For each evade.png result , assign 1 evade token to your ship.
Millennium Falcon (1)
– Your action bar gains the evade.png action icon.
Shield Upgrade (4)
– Increase your shield value by 1.
 
:wub:
 

 

What is the point of a shield upgrade on Chewbacca? Wouldn't a hull upgrade do literally the same thing for 1 point less?

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surely every ship in the game SHOULD have something in some way against any other combination of ship.

Doesn't work that way, in fact it never works that way. You can't balance every ship so it's a suitable match to every other ship. Unless you're willing to make every ship effectively the same.

Anytime you give a ship some sort of nitch, such as highly maneuverable but fragile you make it weak against a AoE type of attack. Even though 360 fire isn't a AoE per say, it has a similar effect.

But you're right, the Meta is everything.

Joe Boss Red Seven likes this

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It isn't everything as a lot of the champions (I had read somewhere) had broken the meta effectively and use combinations of ships/upgrades outside of it changes the way the rest of us play the game.

 

There is a difference between Mental meta (that's the way everyone does it)

 

and Hard Meta (The rules just won't do that)

 

There is nothing wrong with Rock paper Scissors in a game and I don't want a pair of Diamond Scissors (I win card) the issue I find is when a ship becomes effectively Jelly because then what's the point of that ship?

 

I think that then is a big issue

 

it's more important in a minis game as a LCG for example you have so many cards one is no great loss, in this game on or two bad units is a big % of the cards

Edited by Lilikin

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the issue I find is when a ship becomes effectively Jelly [in the meta] because then what's the point of that ship?

 

It may be useless in competitions, but you can still play with it for fun can't you?

Joe Boss Red Seven likes this

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I fly Han Solo occasionally. I take him with nothing other than Veteran Instincts now that Whisper is around. He is incredibly effective. I just fly over after the initial joust and then do bizarre, unpredictable moves and skirt the combat so that I am very rarely in the arc of more than one enemy ship.

 

If the turrets were overpowered, the solution would not be to make the more expensive (then they will just be impossible to use). The solution is to make them less effective. Give an extra green die if outside of the turret ship's arc or something simple like that. However, I am not sure that a solution is necessary regardless of whether flying a flanker squadron against two YT-1300s is an auto loss.

 

Chewie's Falcon

The MF!

60 points

60 points
Chewbacca
5
 
Unique
When you are dealt a faceup damage card, immediately flip it facedown (without resolving its ability).
Chewbacca/YT-1300 (42)
Push the Limit (3)
– Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action shown in your action bar. Then receive 1 stress token.
Cluster Missiles (4)
– Attack [Target Lock]: Spend your Target Lock and discard this card to perform this attack twice. Attack value: 3. Range: 1-2.
C3-PO (3)
– Once per round, before you roll 1 or more defense dice, you may guess aloud a number of evade.png results. If you roll that many evade.png results (before modifying the dice), add 1 evade.png result.
Lando Calrissian (3)
– Action: Roll 2 defense dice. For each focus.png result, assign 1 focus token to your ship. For each evade.png result , assign 1 evade token to your ship.
Millennium Falcon (1)
– Your action bar gains the evade.png action icon.
Shield Upgrade (4)
– Increase your shield value by 1.
 
:wub:
 

 

What is the point of a shield upgrade on Chewbacca? Wouldn't a hull upgrade do literally the same thing for 1 point less?

 

DUR!

:blink:

... yeah man thanks!

 

I made these MF at the same time and missed that for Chewie.

:)

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the issue I find is when a ship becomes effectively Jelly because then what's the point of that ship?

I've played a lot of games with 4 Interceptor lists, and they aren't jelly... They do quite well, assuming the other guy isn't playing a HSF list.

If a ship has a counter, that doesn't mean the ship is worthless, just that it's going to struggle against it's counter.

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the issue I find is when a ship becomes effectively Jelly because then what's the point of that ship?

I've played a lot of games with 4 Interceptor lists, and they aren't jelly... They do quite well, assuming the other guy isn't playing a HSF list.

If a ship has a counter, that doesn't mean the ship is worthless, just that it's going to struggle against it's counter.

 

 

There you go!

:)

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One reason this game is so fun is there is no single "ultimate" build that rules! The number of possible builds is so large nobody will know if they even have an "ultimate" build since they will never be able to compare it to all others!

As to the turret question; I've played both with them and against them, they are good, but not overwhelming, as they can both win and lose like any other good build!

Edited by Plainsman

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It seems like people want "one list to rule them all" type build.

Really? Because it seems to me what people are complaining about is how one trick (turrets) seem to be dominating and invalidating all the other list types, so that you have to take a turret list if you want to win. Don't know that I agree with that assessment, but that seems to be what people are really complaining about.

Jisforjets likes this

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I've got a decent milage out of my Ion turret Y-wings but they've never been as effective as I've wished for. They are tough but aren't very good a dodging incomming fire and if I get caught by more agile Imperial craft then I'm in trouble. While I do get the 360 3 dice attack (at range band 1-2) I find quite often that my opponant will use evade and try to work a range 3 attack or two. I tend to use Y-wings to set up shots for my other ships in the next turn where I can predict exactly where my opponant is going to end up.

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It seems like people want "one list to rule them all" type build. I think the new stuff has really shaken up this game. No more will you see "Howlrunner to rule them all" There are counters to everything now and it's AWESOME!

 

I love it too!

:D

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Again, for the lub of Jeebus:  Turrets can be good, but they're not God mode.

 

A pimped out Falcon can cost over 50 points.  50 POINTS.  It can engage one target a round.  ONE.  With a maximum of four attack dice (at range one).  FOUR.

 

50 points gets you 4 TIE fighters, or four Z-95s.  That's a comparable amount of hull and shields, but spread over four individual targets, that can themselves engage four individual targets, and throw TWICE the amount of attack dice.

 

On it's own, it would take the Falcon four turns MINIMUM to take down those fifty points worth of ships - more likely twice as long.

 

The Falcon's good. Chewie's good.  HWK's and Y-Wings are good.  But they're not the be all and end all, never were, never will be.

VanorDM, Engine25, Plainsman and 1 other like this

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Again, for the lub of Jeebus:  Turrets can be good, but they're not God mode.

 

A pimped out Falcon can cost over 50 points.  50 POINTS.  It can engage one target a round.  ONE.  With a maximum of four attack dice (at range one).  FOUR.

 

50 points gets you 4 TIE fighters, or four Z-95s.  That's a comparable amount of hull and shields, but spread over four individual targets, that can themselves engage four individual targets, and throw TWICE the amount of attack dice.

 

On it's own, it would take the Falcon four turns MINIMUM to take down those fifty points worth of ships - more likely twice as long.

 

The Falcon's good. Chewie's good.  HWK's and Y-Wings are good.  But they're not the be all and end all, never were, never will be.

Awww go on you can have some of my lub then.

FTS Gecko likes this

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I've got a decent milage out of my Ion turret Y-wings but they've never been as effective as I've wished for. They are tough but aren't very good a dodging incomming fire and if I get caught by more agile Imperial craft then I'm in trouble. While I do get the 360 3 dice attack (at range band 1-2) I find quite often that my opponant will use evade and try to work a range 3 attack or two. I tend to use Y-wings to set up shots for my other ships in the next turn where I can predict exactly where my opponant is going to end up.

 

You need some Headhunters right behind them Y-Tankers.

;)

 

Go on and move like a hearse, and let the sneaky (smart) TIEs come on in.

:ph34r:

 

Wait for it... Wait for it, they will come to you and you can take a few hits no probs.

:D

 

When you have  the brave (stupid) leading TIEs in close and can ion dat-ass, the Z's zoom out from behind the Y's and nail the coffin shut.

;)

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I think, somehow, that turrets are getting blamed for things that they are not responsible for.

It's not the turrets fault that they come on a ship that has a base 13 hull/shield points, can ignore virtually all critical hits and turn on a space-dime. That'd be the ship, not the turret.

If turrets were the be-all and end-all of the "meta", why aren't we seeing more Y-Wing and HWK builds dominating the championship listings?

 

The core of this, methinks, is that too many want to play the game just "their way" and not need to respond to other tactics that someone else may bring to the table. There's a reason that I intentionally tend to avoid playing the XXBB or TIE swarm, and yet still manage to win the last local FLGS tournament.

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