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SpikeSpiegel

Rebel Aces II?

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Y-Wing is fine as is.

Unless you try running one without a turret.

But why is this a problem? This is like complaining that the HWK sucks without a turret. Of course it does, it's a dedicated turret ship. The only reason it's an "optional" upgrade is so that you can pick which turret you want to use.

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You can't be, because i don't like you, and i am always right.

You must not be married.

Could be a woman. They tend to think that way.

Yeah, what kind of idiot designs a product that matches the theme of the name for that product? Screw the fluff, let's just put a HWK in the box with the new imperial huge ship because it needs some balance work.

Pilots are aces, not ships. There, now you don't have to bother wasting your energy and our time fighting over semantics again.

The aces so far have been the ships that they tend to put many of the best aces in in each faction. A different title for a Ywing expansion would probably be a good idea. The battle of Yavin pack would be a nice idea, but the faction crossover might be an issue for some. You might make them each in a separate box. Battle of Yavin Ywing pack, and a Battle of Yavin Tie Advanced pack. Two packs solve most of the issues.

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Y-Wing is fine as is.

Unless you try running one without a turret.
But why is this a problem? This is like complaining that the HWK sucks without a turret. Of course it does, it's a dedicated turret ship. The only reason it's an "optional" upgrade is so that you can pick which turret you want to use.

The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.

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@iPeregrine: This is a fine rebuttal to a certain extent and I tend to agree with the point you are making.

@Vorpal & Major: You guys make excellent points. How would you improve so as not to knock things off kilter? Maybe something having to do with movement perhaps? Because increasing the efficacy of its offense seems off to me for some reason.

Edited by sirhc

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The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.

But, as I've said before (and you've continued to ignore it), the y-wing has very little design space available to be anything other than a secondary weapon platform. It's too expensive to swarm well enough to make up for its weak primary weapon, and it doesn't have the stat line to compete with other ships in the 20-25 point price range as a generalist like the x-wing. Trying to make it an x-wing with a weaker dial is just doomed to failure. And of course fluff-wise it's a borderline obsolete ship that is only still in service because the rebellion is desperate for any functioning ships it can gets its hands on, so that rules out doing any fancy tricks with it.

So, what you're left with is a ship that is designed around the secondary weapons it carries. Torps are broken in ways that have nothing to do with the y-wing specifically, so that leaves turrets as the only design space for it to occupy.

Edited by iPeregrine

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I'm all for a Y-wing aces pack like I said before and truly think it could improve darn near every rebel ship in the game. As far as giving it options beyond turrets maybe if it could take bombs but I don't think bombs have a strong enough place to justify taking one over a ion turret. 

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Instead of an aces pack with a quesitonable theme the better option would be a "capital ship killers" pack with a y-wing and TIE bomber. The pilots could be designed around killing big targets like CR-90s and Falcons, and it would also be an opportunity to throw in some generic upgrades to give the y-wing a little balance help.

(Of course this assumes that there will be imperial huge ships, and FFG is going to legitimately support epic play instead of giving it one release and forgetting about it.)

Edited by iPeregrine
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I don’t think many people are disputing the Y-Wing is actually underpowered or unplayable just…. stale perhaps?

 

For example, prior to the Transport coming out the X Wing had:

 

Wedge

Luke

Garven

Biggs

 

Twice as many options in terms of unique pilots with interesting abilities. It didn’t need another 4 unique pilots in Wes, Porkins, Hobbie & Tarn but it got them. These pilots didn’t make the X-Wing overpowered, it just provided a bit more variety.

 

I don’t think it's too much to ask for a bit more variety in having some more unique pilots.

 

Having said that the ships most often mooted for an aces “revamp” are the same ships that only currently have 2 unique pilots:

 

TIE Advanced

Y-Wing

Bomber

HWK

 

Wave 4 ships not withstanding of course, but you get the Idea

 

With all other non-W4 ships having (or soon to have) 3 or more Unique Pilots, I'm pretty sure all anyone wants is a bit more variety spread across the ships as currently it's a little distorted:

 

X-Wing 8 Uniques 2 Generic

Tie Fighter 6 unique 3 Generic

Tie interceptor 7 unique 4 Generic

 

Pilot packs would fix this imbalance But I don’t see them selling pilot cards without a ship attached to them.

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...what you're left with is a ship that is designed around the secondary weapons it carries. Torps are broken in ways that have nothing to do with the y-wing specifically, so that leaves turrets as the only design space for it to occupy.

You're right that it's a ship that relies heavily on its secondary weapons (and pilot skills, in the case of Dutch) to remain relevant. Accordingly, I'd expect an Aces-style content refresh to build on that role by expanding the list of options for a Y-wing's secondary weapons.

…which is, more or less, exactly what WAAAGH said. Did you mean to contradict him? Because actually you just sort of underscored his point.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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You're right that it's a ship that relies heavily on its secondary weapons (and pilot skills, in the case of Dutch) to remain relevant. Accordingly, I'd expect an Aces-style content refresh to build on that role by expanding the list of options for a Y-wing's secondary weapons.

But that's not changing or expanding the y-wing's role, it's just giving it a different weapon (kind of like a z-95 can take ion missiles or assault missiles). It's still either going to deliver torps as cheaply as possible, or fly circles around the battle with a turret. And those are both still going to be fairly specialized roles compared to the generalist x-wing and b-wing.

Edited by iPeregrine

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The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.

But, as I've said before (and you've continued to ignore it), the y-wing has very little design space available to be anything other than a secondary weapon platform. It's too expensive to swarm well enough to make up for its weak primary weapon, and it doesn't have the stat line to compete with other ships in the 20-25 point price range as a generalist like the x-wing.

 

I'll go to bat here.

 

This is exactly why I suggest a -2 cost turret weapon. It also has the nice side benefit of giving a bomb slot. A 2/1/5/3 stat line is worth 16 points, right on the nose. The Y-wing dial is worse than the X-wing, but it's way more cost efficient at jousting. Drop an R2 on the Y and it's very similar price:performance in both regards. The Y-wing would be 16 points vs. 21 on the X-wing, so it fills a different price point. It would become a viable filler swarm ship at 16 points, competing with Refit A-wings post Rebel Aces, and 12 point Z-95s.

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The Y-Wing is only a dedicated turret ship because no better options exist at present. You know, that thing that could be remedied with the expansion we keep advocating.

But, as I've said before (and you've continued to ignore it), the y-wing has very little design space available to be anything other than a secondary weapon platform. It's too expensive to swarm well enough to make up for its weak primary weapon, and it doesn't have the stat line to compete with other ships in the 20-25 point price range as a generalist like the x-wing. Trying to make it an x-wing with a weaker dial is just doomed to failure. And of course fluff-wise it's a borderline obsolete ship that is only still in service because the rebellion is desperate for any functioning ships it can gets its hands on, so that rules out doing any fancy tricks with it.So, what you're left with is a ship that is designed around the secondary weapons it carries. Torps are broken in ways that have nothing to do with the y-wing specifically, so that leaves turrets as the only design space for it to occupy.

I continue to ignore it because you keep pretending that your opinion is fact. Just because you can't conceive of ways to improve or refit the Y-Wing doesn't mean such options don't exist.

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It would become a viable filler swarm ship at 16 points, competing with Refit A-wings post Rebel Aces, and 12 point Z-95s.

But why do we want to improve the jousting efficiency of naked y-wings and make it another swarm ship? How would this be an interesting ship instead of just another z-95 equivalent? After all, if their jousting efficiency is the same and they can't do anything besides joust there's no strong preference in either direction (independent of whether your available point total is divisible by 12 or 16). And even if it does have an advantage it just promotes more of the same boring jousting swarm gameplay where all that matters is how well you optimized your math.

The better solution is to focus on the things that the y-wing actually does differently instead of trying to make it a z-95 variant. For example, if you want a bomb:

 

Bomb Racks

Modification

Y-wing only

Your upgrade bar gains the {bomb} upgrade icon. You may not equip {torpedo} upgrades.

X points

Now you have a ship that does something interesting, since you have a turret you can line up ideal bomb drops without having to worry about keeping a target in your arc. But you're also paying a lot more points than a TIE bomber. And you can consider the cost a concession that torp y-wings, like missile a-wings, just aren't working.

Or maybe you could try to fix the torp problem:

 

Ammunition Stockpile

Modification

Y-wing only

Your {torpedo} upgrade cards do not cost squad points.

3 points

Now you can buy a dual-torp y-wing for less than the cost of a single (currently overpriced) torpedo shot, and there might be a reason to consider taking one. Salm obviously gets a huge boost from this (and FFG, please errata him an EPT), and with the torpedo costs down to a reasonable level you might even see a turret + torp combo occasionally.

Edited by iPeregrine

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I continue to ignore it because you keep pretending that your opinion is fact. Just because you can't conceive of ways to improve or refit the Y-Wing doesn't mean such options don't exist.

Fine, then tell us what these interesting options are. Or just STFU.

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It would become a viable filler swarm ship at 16 points, competing with Refit A-wings post Rebel Aces, and 12 point Z-95s.

But why do we want to improve the jousting efficiency of naked y-wings and make it another swarm ship? How would this be an interesting ship instead of just another z-95 equivalent? After all, if their jousting efficiency is the same and they can't do anything besides joust there's no strong preference in either direction (independent of whether your available point total is divisible by 12 or 16). And even if it does have an advantage it just promotes more of the same boring jousting swarm gameplay where all that matters is how well you optimized your math.

 

The Z-95 is still a better jousting efficiency. It's crazy good.

 

For differences, also see: dials, droids, and Y-wing's damage:durability ratio makes it more of a tank. If you think they would be the same, then I'm sorry, but you haven't thought through it enough, there are quite a few differences...

 

My point was simply to change the ship as little as possible and make it balanced without having to take a turret. That's all. If you can radically change the ship to make it viable some other way, go for it. It's all just pure speculation anyway.

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I continue to ignore it because you keep pretending that your opinion is fact. Just because you can't conceive of ways to improve or refit the Y-Wing doesn't mean such options don't exist.

Fine, then tell us what these interesting options are. Or just STFU.

Reported.

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The Z-95 is still a better jousting efficiency. It's crazy good.

So if you're not boosting it to match the z-95's jousting efficiency then why take the naked y-wing?

 

For differences, also see: dials, droids, and Y-wing's damage:durability ratio makes it more of a tank. If you think they would be the same, then I'm sorry, but you haven't thought through it enough, there are quite a few differences...

Sure, there are subtle differences, but not that many. The y-wing's dial is just a z-95 with more red and less green, and the upgrade slots aren't all that appealing when a droid on a y-wing costs the same as a more effective droid on an x-wing (the same old hull/shield upgrade problem). The only thing appealing about your proposal is getting a bomb slot, and that has nothing to do with jousting efficiency boosts.

 

My point was simply to change the ship as little as possible and make it balanced without having to take a turret.

But WHY do you want to make that change? What's wrong with having a dedicated secondary weapon platform that always takes a turret (or load of torps, if you really want)? Not every ship has to be viable in a naked swarm with great jousting efficiency.

As for what I would do, those modification cards are a pretty good start. They make the y-wing better and open up some new options without losing sight of its role as a secondary weapon platform.

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Reported.

The troll is using the report button. Irony, thy name is WonderWAAAGH.

Anyone who's never had a thread locked for threatening to shoot people, please take a step forward. Whoa, not so fast there Peregrine. Are you this cantankerous in real life, or are you actually capable of conceding a lost cause every now and again? I don't think I've ever seen a thread where you weren't arguing against everyone.

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Anyone who's never had a thread locked for threatening to shoot people, please take a step forward.

*steps forward*

Oh wait, you actually thought you could lie again and nobody would notice? Too bad nobody takes you seriously or you'd be in some real legal trouble for accusing me of making death threats.

I don't think I've ever seen a thread where you weren't arguing against everyone.

And I don't think I've ever seen a thread where you've contributed to anything besides your post count.

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I don't think you understand how torts work, but okay. Please, feel free to contact your local police department. I'm sure they'll be as amused as we are.

Honestly, I don't know how anyone can be so oblivious. Nobody agrees with you. Do I really need to quote them all in order for you to understand?

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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Right, so... there are a number of things that I've heard for suggestions for adding to the Y-Wing. I'm not really going to analyse them in terribly hard detail, but I will give my two cents on them. These are also included with the obvious addition of new pilots, EPT's and the like.

 

Adding bombs: this would be nice. There are already a few bomb options, and proton bombs have been used many a time in various games as the included weapon with Y-Wings. Thematic, fun, and the role of the craft will finally be DIFFERENT! Many people seem to disagree on how this is supposed to be done, and I think we just should switch the torpedoes out. One or both.

 

Changing the Turret slot to the Cannon slot: not a bad idea, but also not a -great- idea if you ask me. People already like B-Wings for this reason and we'll be getting the YT-2000 relatively soon. I give a resounding MEH.

 

Adding crew: would depend entirely on cost and if it sacrifices the astromech upgrade slot. Personally, I think this puts them reletively on par with the new B-Wing upgrade since they can use crew and sensors together with cannons.

 

New astromechs: always a welcome addition, and something that people will want. For the love of god, could we finally get Wedge's R5 astromech already?

 

New turrets: more options are usually good. Maybe a Turbolaser Turret or something to that effect? Anything that's better than what we have now.

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