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Whirlwind of Death + devastating assault + Expert at Violence is it possible?

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In all of its iterations that I have seen, Whirlwind of Death specifies that each additional attack beyond the first is a free action that cannot be combined with other abilities that provide multiple attacks (Lightning Attack, Devastating Assault, etc.). As the description explicitly excludes the first attack, by RAW I think you can make an attack capable of inflicting multiple hits (or allowing you to inflict a bonus attack) for the first hit and then take your free action single attack Whirlwind Attack hits in addition.

Edited by Andkat

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What do those talents/abilities do in the final rules? In the beta, Expert at Violence let you spend a Fate point to substitute your WSB or BSB for the DoS on a ranged attack, and Devastating Assault gave an extra attack if you hit your target with an All-Out Attack.

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You can use Expert of Violence (which does what Covered in Weasels describes, but it can be used for melee or ranged attacks) with both Devastating Assault and Whirlwind Attack; however, since you're rolling more than once, you'll have to spend multiple Fate points if you want to modify more than one die roll. 

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Whirlwind:

 

As a Half Action, the character may make one Standard Attack action with a melee weapon against a foe, plus one additional Standard Attack action with the same weapon targeting each other foe also engaged in melee combat with the character beyond the first (to a maximum number of attacks up to his Weapon Skill bonus).

 

This does not combine with devastating assault as that requires all out attack.

 

Expert at violence allows you to modify the result of one attack only, and thus not all the attacks made with whirl wind.

 

Reading the rules of dual wield, it seems that the attacker can not attack with his offhand if he does a whirlwind attack. However, this is not entirely clear!

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Whirlwind:

 

As a Half Action, the character may make one Standard Attack action with a melee weapon against a foe, plus one additional Standard Attack action with the same weapon targeting each other foe also engaged in melee combat with the character beyond the first (to a maximum number of attacks up to his Weapon Skill bonus).

 

This does not combine with devastating assault as that requires all out attack.

 

Expert at violence allows you to modify the result of one attack only, and thus not all the attacks made with whirl wind.

 

Reading the rules of dual wield, it seems that the attacker can not attack with his offhand if he does a whirlwind attack. However, this is not entirely clear!

Is Dual Wield not considered two separate attacks?

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Whirlwind:

 

As a Half Action, the character may make one Standard Attack action with a melee weapon against a foe, plus one additional Standard Attack action with the same weapon targeting each other foe also engaged in melee combat with the character beyond the first (to a maximum number of attacks up to his Weapon Skill bonus).

 

This does not combine with devastating assault as that requires all out attack.

 

Expert at violence allows you to modify the result of one attack only, and thus not all the attacks made with whirl wind.

 

Reading the rules of dual wield, it seems that the attacker can not attack with his offhand if he does a whirlwind attack. However, this is not entirely clear!

Is Dual Wield not considered two separate attacks?

 

 

Dual wield is a "special rule" that allows you to make an extra attack with your off hand if you did a standard attack, swift/semiburst or lightning/fullauto with you main hand (right?). So the question is if whirlwind is a standard attack (with some extra goodies) or if it is indeed another type of attack.

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Whirlwind:

 

As a Half Action, the character may make one Standard Attack action with a melee weapon against a foe, plus one additional Standard Attack action with the same weapon targeting each other foe also engaged in melee combat with the character beyond the first (to a maximum number of attacks up to his Weapon Skill bonus).

 

This does not combine with devastating assault as that requires all out attack.

 

Expert at violence allows you to modify the result of one attack only, and thus not all the attacks made with whirl wind.

 

Reading the rules of dual wield, it seems that the attacker can not attack with his offhand if he does a whirlwind attack. However, this is not entirely clear!

Is Dual Wield not considered two separate attacks?
 

Dual wield is a "special rule" that allows you to make an extra attack with your off hand if you did a standard attack, swift/semiburst or lightning/fullauto with you main hand (right?). So the question is if whirlwind is a standard attack (with some extra goodies) or if it is indeed another type of attack.

I still haven't gotten my hands on DH2, but in OW, the attacks were separate. You did a Standard Attack (or Swift or Lightning Attack) with your main hand, and then you were allowed a second attack with your off-hand.

A strict reading of RAW would suggest that Whirlwind of Death is a Half-Action that causes a Standard Attack, which interestingly means that by the RAW of dual-wielding rules, you're allowed to perform a Lightning or Swift Attack after each.

I doubt that's intended, though.

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Dual wield is a "special rule" that allows you to make an extra attack with your off hand if you did a standard attack, swift/semiburst or lightning/fullauto with you main hand (right?). So the question is if whirlwind is a standard attack (with some extra goodies) or if it is indeed another type of attack.

 

Two-Weapon Wielder (which enables the off-hand attack) works with a "Single Attack", while Whirlwind of Death allows a "Standard Attack". However, there is not "Single Attack" in the list of combat actions, only "Standard Attack", which is a single attack. Since Standard Attack is specifically compatible with Two-Weapon Fighting, I'd say it works w/  Whirlwind of Death

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Dual wield is a "special rule" that allows you to make an extra attack with your off hand if you did a standard attack, swift/semiburst or lightning/fullauto with you main hand (right?). So the question is if whirlwind is a standard attack (with some extra goodies) or if it is indeed another type of attack.

 

Two-Weapon Wielder (which enables the off-hand attack) works with a "Single Attack", while Whirlwind of Death allows a "Standard Attack". However, there is not "Single Attack" in the list of combat actions, only "Standard Attack", which is a single attack. Since Standard Attack is specifically compatible with Two-Weapon Fighting, I'd say it works w/  Whirlwind of Death

 

 

So you can whirlwind with both your main and off hand?

 

I think we need an errata on this!

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Finally got my copy, and looking at the rules,

You couldn't make a devastating assault and a whirlwind, since one is a full action, and one is a half action.

You could however make two whirlwind attacks if you were duel wielding

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You could however make two whirlwind attacks if you were duel wielding

 

No you can't. You can only perform two different half actions.

And why do you think this, cps? The rules seem pretty clear that you can use any combination of Standard, Swift, and Lightning attacks with both hands if you're two weapon fighting

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Upon closer reading, this is a lot more muddled than I thought. The Whirlwind of Death Talent modifies the action - it is not its own action.

 

Under a strict reading of the rules, that does seem to be possible. That's a lot of attacks, and will probably be updated in the future.

 

This is a clumsy, confusing way to handle attacking multiple targets, but that's another discussion.

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It's actually not that bad at all. It's an alternative to Lightning Attack, with a higher chance of doing a lot of hits, but only ever useful when right in the middle of a huge combat, Whereas Lightning Attack is useful all the time, specifically focussing on one or two more powerful enemies

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If we want to get really down to it here, let's be honest, it's extremely unlikely that this will ever apply to more than 2-3 opponents at once, unless someone has managed to get involved with 8 different opponents at once and somehow survived more than the round he got dogged.

While potentially very powerful (especially since the Off-Hand attack is triggered by the Standard Attack.. allowing you to make Lightning or Swift Attacks with the Off-Hand, even if the Main Hand is a Standard Attack - but honestly, no GM is going to let that fly; so let's say Standard Attacks only) and making someone throw out, say, 6 attacks (3 targets, 2 Standard Attacks each), it's not really the horror show I first thought.

Maybe against Hordes, but Hordes haven't really been a thing in Dark Heresy (yet).

That said, I found a more interesting conundrum.

What about ranged melee weapons? A 3m Whip could end up hitting A LOT of enemies.

Or does an opponent in range (3m) that you have hit with a melee weapon, but that is not adjacent to you, not count as engaged in melee with you?

I am now imagining someone dual-wielding whips while spinning like a maddened furie.

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That said, I found a more interesting conundrum.

What about ranged melee weapons? A 3m Whip could end up hitting A LOT of enemies.

Or does an opponent in range (3m) that you have hit with a melee weapon, but that is not adjacent to you, not count as engaged in melee with you?

I am now imagining someone dual-wielding whips while spinning like a maddened furie.

 

The extra attacks from Whirldwind only works on targets engaged in melee with you, so you could hit a target 3m away on your initial standard attack with your whip and then you can start whipping the peeps standing next to you.

 

However, this is a very narrow reading of the rules, so I guess that most GMs will quickly make some common sense ruling on whirlwind! Hence the need for an errata.

Edited by Alox

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IIRC, you can only take a single attack action per round, but I'd have to double check.

Whirlwind attack gives you a standard attack and an off-hand attack against every melee target in range as if you'd made a standard attack against each of them separately. It'll interact with other abilities as a standard attack action.

Whirlwind attack can be very powerful, so I'd imagine that there'd be some issues with trying to do a whirlwind of doom against a horde of foes with a long weapon. At the very least, you'd take WS penalties against enemies who are huddled behind others due to cover.

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IIRC, you can only take a single attack action per round, but I'd have to double check.

Whirlwind attack gives you a standard attack and an off-hand attack against every melee target in range as if you'd made a standard attack against each of them separately. It'll interact with other abilities as a standard attack action.

Whirlwind attack can be very powerful, so I'd imagine that there'd be some issues with trying to do a whirlwind of doom against a horde of foes with a long weapon. At the very least, you'd take WS penalties against enemies who are huddled behind others due to cover.

 

You can only hit as many targets as your WS bonus. so even if you could do 8 to 12 attacks to a horde, it can only hit half that many individual enemies. That said, i don't know how big hordes are going to be, but 4 to 6 people does not sound like a horde to me.

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