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XP expenditures for Force sensitives - question for the AOR forum

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Hello!

 

Basic question, please help!

 

How do you guys/gals handle XP expenditures for Force sensitives?  

 

Do you let them take any Force talents or any Powers (rationale being: they are already limited per RAW, p'haps)

or

do you limit the Force talents/Powers they can invest XP points in (rationale being, since they are learning on their own, perhaps it's more difficult/slower) 

or

won't let them acquire any more besides their "starting XP-ones" (rationale being - it's impossible w/out a teacher, period)?

 

 

For GM's w/long running campaigns: Has not limiting XP expenditures at all it affected PCs long term (i.e., making them "combat monsters" or superior to the average party member, for instance) for "the worse"?

 

 

Checking the holonet for info before I rule stuff in my game.

Thanks!

L

MTFBWY

A

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The only thing I've limited so far has been access to Force Powers - not that this was really necessary as my Force Sensitive player wanted really only one force power, but generally I'd prefer my players to have in-game reasons to learn force powers, but I do let them start with one force power - usually Sense - and more than that needs to be learned in-game, whether through a teacher, holocron or some other rationale the player and me can create together.

 

When it comes to talents I wouldn't restrict XP expenditure, otherwise the whole idea about the talent tree becomes useless in my opinion. Why buy into a spec without being allowed to spend XP on the talents it provides?

awayputurwpn, kaosoe and LETE like this

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I limited it for purely role-playing reasons.  I decided that you can't be Force-sensitive unless you start out with it - I didn't like the idea this was something high-level characters would buy into just because they had lots of XP.

 

I also tied the 'Emergent' tree into a specific organisation, and that Exiles could only add this tree if they actually joined the organisation and took the training.  I also tied the Force Powers into the Exile and Emergent classes.

 

And so far, it seems to have worked in keeping the AOR and EOE force users distinct and the players don't mind.

 

However, the above is only my take on things, and by Rules As Written, you can take Force career or powers tree at any time and for any reason, without needing training or an in-game rationale.

 

I specifically wanted to avoid the old 'Jedi Town' cliché where everyone was a Force user, and I wanted to tie the careers into the specifics of our campaign.

Edited by Maelora
Tear44, LETE and kaosoe like this

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I wouldn't, I have a very strict interpretation of the move force power and force points required ,therefore even if somebody had progressed through Exile and Emergent they're not going to have the FR to be able to do anything terribly spectacular with it in any event so it's sort of self-limiting.  I don't view any of the other force powers as being particularly overpowered, just move.

 

Getting access to the specializations in force and destiny will increase the number of force ratings they have access to which to me in mechanical terms will represent that greater access to training. Now gaining access to those trees maybe something that we role-play for those characters but to me once they have access they will be all set.

Edited by 2P51

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I'd assume Talent tree access should be okay but I agree that access to Force Powers needs to be restricted although that doesn't stop them spending enough starting experience for access to up to 3 force powers as long as they know they will need someone or access to an artefact to purchase any other force powers afterwards.

 

Still until force & destiny is released we don't know how they will deal with pure force users.

 

Will be interesting to see how this is dealt with by the other game masters..

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I only limit if there's a good reason. For example if its a key story point that a PC not know they're force sensitive I'd restrict the powers to ones that the character can use without really knowing it.

LETE likes this

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So far the only limits I have in place are only 1 Force Sensitive in the group at a time.  And currently the Force power trees in AoR are unavailable (except Move), they will require someone to learn them from.

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One of my characters just went Force Sensitive at the beginning of the session last night. He's a Smuggler/Pilot in my EotE campaign, but he took FS Emergent rather than Exile. He didn't take any powers, but rather started investing in the talent tree, with possibly doing some powers later.

 

The key piece to remember is that XP spent on Force Powers is XP not spent on another talent tree or skills. It all balances out, and the existing Force Powers are not overpowered in comparison to a comparable expenditure in other areas.

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Well, I basically let them do whatever, though currently I've only got 2 players doing Force Users and each has only 1 power. I figure that the XP expenditure covers all the practicing and training in order to actually pull it off, and anyways since according to an old Lucas interview (before he went nuts and power-mad) that anybody *COULD* use the Force, most just don't put in the time and training required to do it, anybody can suddenly have an epiphany and use the Force if they want to take the Specs for it.

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"(...) according to an old Lucas interview (before he went nuts and power-mad) that anybody *COULD* use the Force, most just don't put in the time and training required to do it, anybody can suddenly have an epiphany and use the Force if they want to take the Specs for it."

 

Hiyas!

 

 

 

Would love to hear/see this.  Wonder if you know where to find it?

 

 

 

Thanks!

L

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I have to agree that, similar to past iterations of the SWRPG, investing XP in Force powers is XP they can't spend on talents or skills. Plus you have the Force die mechanic, and right now the maximum Force rating a character can have is three dice. However, getting to that point costs a lot of XP, which is also XP they didn't spend on improving Force powers.

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I have to agree that, similar to past iterations of the SWRPG, investing XP in Force powers is XP they can't spend on talents or skills. Plus you have the Force die mechanic, and right now the maximum Force rating a character can have is three dice. However, getting to that point costs a lot of XP, which is also XP they didn't spend on improving Force powers.

 

And until they snag three dice a character that is strictly lightside will still botch rolls with enough frequency that a good blaster in your hand is probably still a better choice.

Edited by Vonpenguin

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"(...) according to an old Lucas interview (before he went nuts and power-mad) that anybody *COULD* use the Force, most just don't put in the time and training required to do it, anybody can suddenly have an epiphany and use the Force if they want to take the Specs for it."

 

Hiyas!

 

 

 

Would love to hear/see this.  Wonder if you know where to find it?

 

 

 

Thanks!

L

 

http://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians

 

Someone on the Edge forums, R2builder quoted this article, which made me aware of it. I was mistaken though, it wasn't an interview, it was a discussion between him, Lawrence Kasdan, and Richard Marquand before they filmed Jedi. The relevant section is quoted below:

 

Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?

Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.

Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?

Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.

Marquand: They use it as a technique.

Lucas: Like Yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate.

 

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I say that characters must begin without the Force. However, they can get the talent trees later on, showing that they've recently become more attached to the Force. Then, they are allowed to purchase talents, but not any powers. This is to show that they do not yet know they have the Force; in order to learn they have the Force, they must either a) complete a custom-made adventure that proves their Force sensitivity (which I may let them in on, just so we can brainstorm together), b) be confirmed Force sensitive by a powerful Force sensitive, or c) achieve a Force Rating of 2 (which shows by their character seeing that some strange things have been occurring recently, and upon looking it up--with some checks, of course--they realize it's the Force).

 

That's what I plan to do, anyways. But normally my plans fail miserably, due in full to my own failures.

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If you are worried about your players building "bad" characters that you don't want in your game, then the problem isn't a rules one and can't be fixed with more rules.

kaosoe, LETE and Tear44 like this

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If you are worried about your players building "bad" characters that you don't want in your game, then the problem isn't a rules one and can't be fixed with more rules.

 

Hiyas:

 

I disagree.  But I wasn't worried, just being cautious, thanks.

 

 

 

L

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Something I've required for most of my Star Wars games (except the very early WEG ones) was that if a player wants their character to become Force-sensitive after character creation, they need to provide justification for doing so; namely, what event happened to trigger this character suddenly becoming aware of the Force?  If a suitable justification can't be provided by the player beyond "because I want access to the cool powers" then I disallow them becoming Force-sensitive.

 

As for learning new powers, under Saga Edition my rule-of-thumb was that the powers in the core rulebook were 'standard' powers that could be learned without any sort of instruction, even allegedly 'secret' powers like Force Lightning (which the movies treats more as an advanced manifestation of the dark side) and Sever Force (light side ability to dampen/cut a foe's ability to use the Force).

 

For this system, I'd treat is as much the same, that a Force-sensitive PC can learn a new base power without an instructor, but there are a couple caveats.  First of these is would be that only one new power learned in between sessions; just because you've got 30 XP sitting in your pocket doesn't mean your self-taught Exile who only had Sense can suddenly learn basic telekinesis (Move), boost their sensory perceptions (Sense), and see the future (Foresee).  Second is would be that you can only purchase a single upgrade per power between sessions, reflecting the "slow & steady" path of self-taught abilities; so an Emergent with just the Enhance basic power could either purchase the Resilience Control Upgrade or the Coordination Control Upgrade after a session, but not both.  Of course, if the PC has access to a means of instruction, be it an experienced Force user, a Jedi/Sith holocron, or even training manuals discussing particularly Force abilities, then those restrictions are waived as the PC is benefiting from the experience and knowledge of someone that already knows this stuff.

 

For the campaign that I'm playing a Force user in, the GM hasn't really set any restrictions on what I could or could not purchase with my XP.  But I opted to adhere to those two restrictions I listed for my character, to reflect that for sometime, he was slowing coming to understand the nature of the Force and what it could do.  Granted, when that same character got about a week of in-game time to study a Jedi Holocron, those restrictions went right out the window (particularly as he'd just taken the Force Rating talent to bring his Force Rating up to 2).  Of course, now that I don't have the holocron anymore (had relinquished it as part of an earlier agreement with an NPC sponsor; even worked it into part of his character growth into becoming an actual Jedi instead of a Force user of growing capability), I'm right back to those two self-imposed restrictions as noted above.

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I don't limit when PCs can spend xp because sometimes it fits the narrative to spontaneously manifest Force powers.  For example, the PCs were obligated to help a merc band of Trandoshans shake down an arms dealer that was holding out on them.  They confronted the guy and things went south.  The arms dealer ran to the back room and grabbed a light repeating rifle.  The wookiee closed to melee and disarmed him, but he was able to drop a thermal detonator unnoticed.  BUT the FSE Arkanian, DID notice it and he did not have Move yet, so he spent his xp, rolled the force die, converted the Dark Side pips, took strain and the next thing he knows the thermal detonator is in his hands.  It was really awesome!  I also had everyone roll perception checks to see if they noticed the Force user in the room and everyone failed!!  It was great!  He saw the detonator, out of worried panicked concern for his companions he was able to tap into a resource he was not fully aware of. 

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Why is it so many people assume force powers have to be learned. The basic ability is something your born with, why then wouldn't the powers be natural as well. It's like sculptors, and singers, and any other person that has a natural talent. most of the ability comes totally from within and is refined more by practice and trial and error then someone showing you exactly how to do it. Kinda like some settings treat magic...everyone casts there spells a little different and no one can show you the exact way to do so, only guide your natural ability along.

It amazes me how many people want to play in the star wars universe but downplay or ignore the force entirely...It's what defines setting and sets it apart from every other sci-fi setting out there. If you don't like the force then why not just play in another sci-fi universe?

 

T

And castle...why would a character need to have another force user come along and say "oh by the way your force sensitive"? That makes no sense at all...did Anakin need qui-gon to tell him he was force sensitive before he became an awesome pilot, or developed the ability to predict things that was so strong his mother noticed them?

Edited by khaine1969
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I would say it's more like gymnastics, where even if you have the inborn talent if you do not know at least the broad strokes of technique and what is possible you'll progress fairly slowly.

 

Imagine if you will a force user who learns on their own how to move small objects, maybe even throw around fairly heavy things, then assumes that means they can fly, flings themselves a hundred feet into the air and dies a horrible, splatty death. This is a massively exaggerated case, but smaller instances of say, accidentally breaking someone with force influence can easily happen. And why would anyone assume they can predict and dodge blaster bolts if they didn't have someone tell them they could?

Edited by Vonpenguin
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because to them it's completely natural..someone shoots at you, you dodge. And even a naturaly talented gymnast will be more graceful and fluid then most other people. They don't have to stop and dream up ways to walk gracefully or keep their balance when they slip...they just do it.

Ask a talented singer how they do it, they can't tell you...they just do, And some of the best singers in history never had a single lesson.

 

T

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They still have to work their way up from simpler moves to greater ones. A "natural" acrobat can figure out a cartwheel on their own, but throw them on parallel bars if they've never done it before and they'll fail just as hard as someone without talent, they just might hit the ground softer and in a less embarrassing way.

 

And yes, if someone shoots at you you dodge, but to learn to do it with the proficiency level we see in the movies and eu would take practice, and most people that have never heard of a jedi calmly dancing through blaster fire would probably credit their dodge mostly to luck and not tempt fate trying to hone it, either that or they are the kind of overconfident person that will either die or fall in short order.

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khaine1969,

In terms of slowing learning Force Powers, try teaching yourself to do high-level computer programming with no instructors and no checking the internet for answers when you get stumped.  It's not impossible, but the process is slow and prone to the person making a number of errors as they learn via "trial and error."

 

Even Luke, who has been made out to be something of a prodigy with the Force, really hadn't progressed all that far in the time between ANH and ESB.  While most of his time and effort had been spent on becoming a better pilot and aiding the Rebellion, he'd obviously developed some new abilities on his own... problem being he wasn't very good at them.  It was only when he started training under Yoda did he grow by leaps and bounds (literally) in terms of what he could do, to the point of being able to go toe-to-toe with Vader and not get instantly creamed (Vader holding back did play a role, but he still wanted to test Luke's abilities).  So there is precedent in the films (which aside from TCW is the only existing canon at the moment) for Force users to have some trouble developing their powers on their own.

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Your example of computer programming really isn't relevant at all. That's a skill that HAS to be learned... no one was ever born with the ability to program from birth (except maybe Neo) but all force users are born with it even if they never realize it.

I'm not saying training wouldn't help, my point is that NO power in the game should have to be taught by someone else, and under no circumstances should it require another force user to come along and "activate" you.

Adventurers are constantly under extreme circumstances so any power could be learned "in the field" so to speak...what if a character was surprised by an enemy and instinctively force pushed him away, or used move during a chase to tip over an obstacle to block the pursuer. people under pressure do some crazy stuff. Or what if a force user was caught by the empire and suddenly used influence( representing his player buying it just before this session) to convince his weak minded captor to release him. None of these examples require someone to say" hey this is how you do this" but all of them make perfect sense.

 

Even the the kid from the new rebels series in his intro video is stated to have used the force his whole life to influence others and get out of scrapes, but he doesn't realize he's using his powers or that they're from the force....he just does it naturally, and nobody "taught him" any of it.

 

 

T

Edited by khaine1969

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