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khaine1969

Force push?

91 posts in this topic

I would also point out that as far as canon sources are concerned, I don't recall ever seeing anyone get force "moved" in relation to an attack.  If they could do that, why wouldn't vader have just thrown Luke instead of chucking air conditioners at him?  Why wouldn't Palpatine have chucked Yoda?  Or Dooku have thrown Yoda... it had to be easier then bringing the roof down.   Even in the clone wars cartoon, I don't recall seeing it happen.  They threw droids (objects) around, but droids are not "beings".  I've never seen them throw a being.  I've seen them save people with a force "catch".   Obviously, Vader could lift people while choking them.... so I don't really have an answer.  Maybe The Force just doesn't allow it.

The only place I've ever seen someone flat out get "moved" was in the force unleashed (not canon). 

Actually we see three instances of people being moved with the Force in Revenge of the Sith alone

 

First one is Dooku, who Force chokes Obi-Wan while lifting him into the air before hurling the Jedi Master away.

 

Second one is Yoda throwing Palpatine several meters through the air and over his desk to land ass over tea kettle in his big chair.

 

Third one is Obi-Wan and Anakin's "force push contest" during their fight on Mustafar, which resulted in both of them being hurled away from one another.

 

We also see Dooku using the Force to move/toss Anakin aside while electrocuting him with Force lightning in AotC.

 

We see Maul doing a "Force shove" against Obi-Wan in TPM to toss the headstrong young Jedi into that pit during the Theed lightsaber duel.

 

As for why it's not a "go-to" tactic, especially against other Jedi of similar skill and power... well, take a look at what happened to Anakin and Obi-Wan in RotS, and now imagine that occuring if they were both out on a catwalk that stood over one of those rivers of molten lava.

 

And in the case of Yoda, he's demonstrated on a number of occasions that attacking him directly with the Force isn't going to work out so well, since it's quite possible a sufficiently capable Force-user can just rebound your Force attack right back at you.  Dooku likely tried hurling chunks of the ceiling in the hopes that Yoda wouldn't be able to catch all of them, particularly after having one of his Force lighting attacks bounced right back at him and the second one simply negated without all that much effort.  Palpatine likely felt the same, and aside from being drunk on the dark side ("Unlimited POWAH!!!!!") hurling the Senate pods worked to keep Yoda off-balance and constantly moving and thus unable to close to lightsaber range, where he very well may have had the upper hand (particularly since Palps seems to have lost his back-up lightsaber at some point).

 

The thing to also remember with the original movies is that Lucas was working with somewhat more limited technology and the fact that the Force wasn't quite as "fleshed out" as it is today.  I remember being a pre-teen when RotJ hit theaters, and the sense of awe and worry when the Emperor suddenly started firing lightning from his finger-tips and began flash-frying Luke.  We never really see Vader in the original films cut loose and start busting heads; he was wary enough of Obi-Wan to not try anything too flashy (considering where it got him the last time they fought), and in his fights with Luke, the goal wasn't to crush the boy but to turn him to the dark side.  In Luke's case, in ESB he's barely trained and not really that savvy with what the Force can accomplish, and while he's much more comfortable and capable with the Force in RotJ, his goal when fighting Vader is to redeem his father.  Although during the Pit of Karkoon sequence, we do see Luke using a "Force Kick" (i.e. a fight scene failure) when he kicks at one of Jabba's goons as Boba Fett goes soaring past in the background, and there's a good couple feet between his foot and the goon, yet the goon goes flying backward.  Again, it's simply a case of mistiming in the fight coordination, but it could technically be counted as Luke using telekinesis to push an opponent back, using his foot as opposed to a hand gesture.

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Oh, and Yoda slammed Palpatine's honor guard into the wall.

 

I'm generally harsh with Dark Side Points when I play, but I only hand one out for Move when someone is being cruel with it. I consider it to be fine as long as you're either pelting them with small objects (since that's less killing them and more keeping them off balance), or a big object if you're say, pinning them under it or something. Slamming someone repeatedly into a wall would get one, though. 

 

Also, I would rule that it's fine if you use Move to affect people. If it's a friendly target, such as keeping a friend from falling, it's the normal difficulty (which I believe is just a light side pip, right?), if it's an enemy you'd need some kind of Discipline check, maybe opposed by their Willpower? It hasn't yet come up, but the Exile in my group will probably invest in Move sooner or later (she wants to finish up Sense at least, though).

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Touche! I stand corrected... Admittedly, I don't watch the first 3 movies enough to know details beyond the big fights. 
 

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The only time I just let the force fly is in defense.  If you're being attacked then by all means use the force to defend yourself by almost any means necessary.  Throw a truck at them for all I care. 

However, if you're sneaking into some place and a guard on a cat walk is unaware of you, and you just chuck him off the cat walk to his death, I add that to the tab.  If you throw the same truck on a group of storm troopers that are sitting down eating lunch, it goes on the tab.   Same if you disarmed them, then you can't just go attack them, using the force.  You could punch them, or if they continued attacking you, you could meet force with force, but if they pretty much just gave up then I add any further aggression to the tab..

If the target isn't readied for combat, I don't give them saves for things like a move to disarm them.  I only use that if they are holding the weapon at the ready. A jedi could pull a weapon out of a non secured holster and fling it across a room, without much resistance.  

So for me it all depends on how it is used and approached.  

I guess, I just hold them to a code. Like samuri or paladins (D&D ref), in when the force is being used for good or ill. 

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Agreed^

 

A lot of it falls on the GM.  I limited the number of Force sensitives to 1 in a group of 5.  I also regularly remind them that using the Force causes disturbances that others can sense, i.e. The Sith and Inquisitors.  So, go ahead and do whatever you can and want within the rules but just know that you are going to bring down a world of hurt on not just yourself but your companions also.  

 

Again, it is all the GM's responsibility.  There are repercussions in the story to being to uber and the GM has to make sure to enforce those responsibilities.  I am sure the other players would not be to happy if their character is killed by an Inquisitor in an effort to get to the Force user in the group.

 

Incidentally I feel the same way about fringe characters in general.  In EotE we are dealing with criminal elements.  Piss off the wrong people and you are probably going to end up dead.  Doesn't matter if you are a PC or not.  There is no PC immunity in my games.

Then I applaud you, my friend.  It's not always easy to GM hardships.  As I pointed out in my post, more times then not, when a force sensitive got too reliant on the force, the party would turn them in for the reward, dead or alive, with no prompting from me.   Doesn't help that my bounty hunter is an assassin, and an IG 100 (magna)droid.  

My players tend to metagame that bit out - I don't think they would ever turn on one another simply because that is a tricky edge to walk in games without feelings getting hurt.  Plus, with the metaplot going on, 5 different obligation story lines going on, and 5 different motivations to adhere to, it is enough to chew on each session that they don't really need to go after each other in such ways. If that makes sense.

 

But yeah, I learned long ago to take a hard stance on games.  I like my NPCs to react genuinely and true to their character and setting.  Because of this sort of standard if you will, I have never had issue with insane Force power use or murder hobo situations.  I don't often kill PCs, cause in most RPGs it is difficult, but I can make their lives hell.  That is REAL easy to do!

 

However, due to the nature of this game (narrative) I do let them get away with a lot more than I would in other games.  As long as it makes sense and is fun and interesting to the story! 

 

So with that said, I hold Force users to a similar standard all their own.  In my eyes, we in real life, can't really fathom the intricacies of the Force, so I try to keep things simple.  I tend to think that those who tap into it's power are very susceptible to the corrupting influence of the Dark side.  While those effects may not be immediate (no F&D yet!) they will eventually take their toll.  I also try to keep it simple when deciding if an action is light or dark.  I mean, we are all reasonably intelligent folks and know right from wrong.  Is the current action wrong objectively without explanation?  Then you might be tapping into the dark side a bit.  As soon as the player begins to defend why their action is not wrong/bad/evil that is a red flag to me.  However, I find it incredibly interesting to rp out falling to the dark side and redemption.  So in an RPG I never view tapping into the Dark side as bad or negative because we can find ways to come back from it.  Those stories are just as compelling.

 

So long story short, I let my players (not just Force users) pretty much do whatever they want, as long as their characters have the ability to do so.  They just have to deal with the repercussions of such actions.  Unfortunately those repercussions are galaxy spanning powerful crime organizations, powerful Force users, or a Galactic Empire with seemingly infinite resources.  And the appropriate force will be brought to bear against them based on THEIR actions.  Fun!!

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Kit Fisto in TCW: "Those who have power should restrain themselves from using it." When his old apprentice Nahdar goes and Force-shoves a bunch of droids he had already destroyed with his lightsaber, Fisto reprimands him for his lack of restraint.

This is one of the blurry lines between dark side and light side. But lifting an opponent to extreme range and then dropping him to kill him? Yeah, dark side. You can make a case for "self-defense," but using the Force in such an unrestrained manner could be likened to using a heavy repeating blaster to kill a fly. Use a fly swatter for the bug, and use the blaster for people who are shooting back at you. Likewise, use the Force when necessary, not when it's "justifiable."

Yoda is fighting a Sith Lord and uses the Force to push him away. And before that, he uses the Force to knock out his honor guard, instead of allowing them to stay standing and later having to use his lightsaber to end their lives while he fought the Emperor. Note his style of fighting Dooku and Sidious: he only matches power with power, refusing to escalate but rather only to defend and try to force a surrender. Dooku hurls lightning, Yoda deflects it (throws a bit back at Dooku as an object lesson). Dooku throws a building at Yoda and his friends. Yoda uses the Force to deflect the chunks of rock, instead of chucking them back at Dooku. Sidious throws Senate pod after Senate pod at Yoda, who finally uses one to stop the Sith Lord's assault and give him time to close in. Always de-escalating the situation, Yoda is.

To me, that is badass.

And like I said, it's a blurry line. But the PC who routinely kills his foes by lifting and dropping them with telekinesis is, IMO, obviously well along the path to the Dark Side.

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It can be debatable whether or not the "Force Drop" is light or dark side. I'm not sure there isn't a certain level of sadism in "disarming" someone in a cantina fight. Bleeding out from having your arm lopped off doesn't sound like a painless way to die.

 

While dismemberment isn't a guaranteed death, neither is falling from a massive height.

 

My biggest issue with falling is that it's lame. It lacks drama. It's also somewhat easier to counter than a short sharp acceleration. Maybe everyone in Star Wars has a cape as a sort of emergency parachute. I mean style and a high tech parachute all in one! There also seems to be an unwritten rule that Force powered upward acceleration is slower than horizontal movement. All lofted bad guys get to try and grab something before they go for their round trip?

 

Everyone's game is gonna be different, but we observe the rule that using gravity as a weapon is generally too boring. Star Wars has way too much third dimensional movement for people to be so afraid of falling. I mean Coruscant alone would have repulser chutes be standard safety gear on all outside trips. Now consider Cloud City and a nice gust of wind...

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Just leveraging the narrative... if the target "dies" from the force drop you could go with something where he's just launched out of frame or off into the distance. Kinda like Palpy did to Windu.

 

Personally though I see Force Drop (as well as AT-AT missile) as a seriously thorny issue when you start talking darkside effects. Chucking a hydrospanner at someone is harmful but is something that is survivable and leaves the possibility that the opponent will decide to give up/flee/play dead. Dropping someone from Medium range altitude inflicts sufficient damage that most NPCs won't survive, which takes the power use from a mere "attack," to a willful decision to end the targets life. I'd even go so far as to say a GM wouldn't be totally out of bounds to levy some kind of penalty akin to using dark pips.

 

By comparison hacking off an arm with a lightsaber isn't pleasant, but most Rivals can (at least in theory) survive a single hit from a glowstick, and it doesn't require actual force-usage to do.

Edited by Ghostofman
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Say a Jedi is in a cantina and senses an impending bear (*ahem*...bar) fight with potential deaths of innocents as a result. He tries to defuse the situation, but the dude's already out for blood and pulls a blaster. The Jedi makes a targeted strike against a bad guy's gun arm. 2 setbacks and 2 difficulty. *fszook* 13 damage, no more arm, bad guy still alive but, for all intents and purposes, out of the fight. No one else is hurt.

Different Jedi in a similar situation, but outdoors, uses the Force to propel the gunman meters in the air. Dropping from Medium range is 30 damage, plus 20 strain that bypasses soak. Not targeted, just crushing force spread out through the entire body. Even being dropped from Short range is 10 (soaked) damage and 10 (not soaked) strain, which will still take out most minions and rivals.

Which Jedi showed proper restraint?

Edited by awayputurwpn
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This reminds me of a similar discussion regarding "Force Choke" (not in context of EotE, by the way) and the morality of it's use.

 

Despite the symbolic/narrative uses... It's really just telekinesis.

 

As a GM I would rule that in all but the most bizarre and unusual of circumstances, "Force Choke" is a dark side to some degree act due to the fear it would cause in the recipient.

 

In addition to his own obsessions and desires, elements of this can be seen in Anakin. Despite his deep belief that he was making things better, the impact on other people fostered fear and suspicion. 

Is he flat-out responsible for the reactions and feelings of others? I'd say "no" but he is responsible for for the carelessness that helped create the environment in which such feelings developed.

 

With that in mind, perhaps Jedi should not only be mindful of their own motivations but of the unintended consequences and reactions.

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Sit 1) The Jedi doesn't actively use the force to commit an act, depending on the wt of the target he may not have even exceeded the at. Furthermore he's sent a clear message to the rest of the room, so that bear will know to just keep drinking his drink.

 

Sit 2) The Jedi does use the force to actively harm another creature. Unless the target was especially tough, that wt is exceeded and the Jedi knew full well that was going to be the result. I wouldn't automatically drop some kind of dark side penalty on him, but I would be more inclined to depending on additional details like if the Jedi could do a weapon yank or if the location was especially full of other baddies and impressing them with this display was a good way to diffuse a much worse situation.

 

Sit 3) My money is on the 12 inch pianist.

 

Edit: discussing this with my lady friend added a good narrative point too. The kind of injury inflicted in sit 1 is clean and repairable using available tech. The injuries in sit 2 can be a lot more complex and are harder to repair.

Edited by Ghostofman

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The Jedi M.O. (particularly when GL is writing) seems to be "go to talk, but go armed"*

When the Senate sends Jedi, perhaps the message is: Too dangerous for just diplomats but too delicate for soldiers so send the Jedi.

For whatever reason, the idea of a non-Jedi skilled in both (while in evidence) is not something that is readily relied upon.

 

Interestingly, this plays a into how Careers work in the FFG, somewhat.  Take all the added Specs you can afford, you are still always seen as a Colonist/Politico.

 

Anyhoo... 

Jedi Knights seem to have both roles inherent, but within limits.

There is no evidence that the Jedi would have authority to draft a treaty and their inability to fight a war is mentioned a few times.

 

 

*Obi-Wan at Mos Eisley, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon above Naboo, Mace and posse at the Supreme Chancellor's office, Col. Mustard in the conservatory...

Edited by Aluminium Falcon

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Jedi in the films seem to be more of the mindset of "proper application of force to resolve the situation."  After all, you don't use a bazooka to kill a spider.

 

Yoda could very likely have easily demolished most of the Senate himself during his fight with Palpatine, but over eight centuries of Jedi training kept him to not doing so, where Palps had such sense of restraint.  If anything, Yoda seems to willingly fight on his opponent's level, as he probably could have crushed Dooku quite easily; problem was by the time he realized just how strong the dark side had made Palpatine, it was too little, too late.

 

So in the scenarios that Awayputyrwpn suggested, the first one actually acted like a Jedi, only using as much force to resolve the dilemma.  Where there alternative options?  Quite possibly, but they may have been outside that character's ability to implement (hard to use a mind trick if you don't have that power) or they may have been tried and failed (much like Obi-Wan's efforts to diffuse the situation between Luke, Doctor Evazan, and Ponda Baba).  The second fell prey to the "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem and showed no restraint.

 

I think it was GM Chris that suggested a very simple guideline for this sort of thing.  While the context was "does this deserve a dark side point?" for Saga Edition, it can be applied for "is the character showing the proper restraint for a Jedi?"  The guideline was "would this sort of action make Palpatine chuckle with glee?" and I think it's a pretty solid one, even if one's game doesn't incorporate (or want to include) some means of tracking whether a PC is on the fast track to becoming a dark sider.

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I know that some people don't like this option, but, I will propose it anyway.

 

Roleplay! My player's characters is a wise Jedi Master, and even knowing some destructive and REALLY useful powers, he just don't use them because he is interpratating his character (even if this causes serious problems or a close death).

Also he tries to preserve the "cinematic feeling" from Star Wars. When a bad guy appear with a lightsaber or a blaster gun, he don't use to disarm with the Force just "because he can" the enemy and finishes the combat. He prefers to roll a Charm or another social check before that. An even more, he uses to disarm or broke their weapons more like a "cinematic way".

 

After destroying targets weapons: Now can we talk quietly? [Obi-Wan-like smile]" Or another Hollywood scene like that...yeah! XD

 

So, I know that this isn't a fix, but for people that just want to follow the SW spirit instead push 7 and use the biggest weapon/force power he/she haves, this can be a good choice: Roleplay :D

 

Hope this helped!

Edited by Josep Maria
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