Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
khaine1969

Force push?

91 posts in this topic

From the pod casts:  I recall there was talk of a lot of tables doing force rating wrong in the first place.  The only way to get a second force rating was at the button of the tree.  Some groups were playing it so if they went into move, and then enhance they increased a force rating for it.  Still others were playing it, if they went into emergent and exile, they got a force rating for each.  Both are wrong!  As mentioned the second force rating is down at the bottom of the tree, something like 100 xp deep, (a pretty gimped character compared to the rest of the party). 

Then it came to force pips.  The first pip was to activate the force.  Then you could use the second/third/fourth pips to increase the things you could do, assuming they were all light side points.  If not, then you had to convert, etc... And GMs were highly encouraged to make the dark side "a thing".   This is where a lot of GMs were going very wrong. They were not making the dark side affect the character tapping into it. This is hard to do without telling the character what to do or how to act, which players tend to rebel against, but let the player know that giving up portions of his character is the penalty for tapping into the dark side. See my previous post for some examples. 
 
So for example, move... assuming you rolled two white pips.. you activated the move with one pip, and your second could increase the speed (you have to as the default speed is too slow to do damage) ... but now you're stuck as you already used your action (to activate).  Regardless, now you could move the object, but you only had control over it within the "short" range... as soon as it leaves said range it is either a "wild throw" (you used a pip to up the speed) or drops, unless you had a third pip to increase the range.  

Some notes  on move: 

Move only works on objects. You can't use it on people/beings/ cats/ etc..

 

If you're trying to disarm someone (this assumes they have a weapon in hand at the ready), or move anything on their person, then you roll discipline as your attack roll, and treat it like a normal attack. You have range bands (provided you activated them beyond short).  Also, all dodges and what-not are in effect.  Then, If you get through all that they get at the very least a brawn roll (athletics being more applicable) to oppose it, the "strength of your move" dictating the number of purples opposing their brawn.  (none of his applies to minions whom you're welcome to disarm to your hearts content provided you have the proper magnitude, speed (can't disarm with default speed), and range, ).

 

Throwing things into people came out to something like falling damage.  It was negligible as they were able to soak most of it.  Unless you dropped a ship on them or something (but that’s evil force at work).  They still got a dodge (etc…) if they were aware of the attack,  you still had to hit them with a discipline roll  you had to be able to reach them (upgraded range if need be), so unless they were in short range, you needed two force dice to do it (activation/speed/size increase).  You also had to be able to see the target. 

If I remember the rest I’ll post it.  I found an old post where I referenced it and that’s what was in the post.

 
These were just developer recommendations, and how they run it in their games.  They know the descriptions in the book were kinda vague.  Your GM is allowed to hand wave as they see fit, but risks making jedi too powerful for EtoE (only system out at the time of the podcast).

Edited by Shamrock
Ghostofman likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed^

 

A lot of it falls on the GM.  I limited the number of Force sensitives to 1 in a group of 5.  I also regularly remind them that using the Force causes disturbances that others can sense, i.e. The Sith and Inquisitors.  So, go ahead and do whatever you can and want within the rules but just know that you are going to bring down a world of hurt on not just yourself but your companions also.  

 

Again, it is all the GM's responsibility.  There are repercussions in the story to being to uber and the GM has to make sure to enforce those responsibilities.  I am sure the other players would not be to happy if their character is killed by an Inquisitor in an effort to get to the Force user in the group.

 

Incidentally I feel the same way about fringe characters in general.  In EotE we are dealing with criminal elements.  Piss off the wrong people and you are probably going to end up dead.  Doesn't matter if you are a PC or not.  There is no PC immunity in my games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed^

 

A lot of it falls on the GM.  I limited the number of Force sensitives to 1 in a group of 5.  I also regularly remind them that using the Force causes disturbances that others can sense, i.e. The Sith and Inquisitors.  So, go ahead and do whatever you can and want within the rules but just know that you are going to bring down a world of hurt on not just yourself but your companions also.  

 

Again, it is all the GM's responsibility.  There are repercussions in the story to being to uber and the GM has to make sure to enforce those responsibilities.  I am sure the other players would not be to happy if their character is killed by an Inquisitor in an effort to get to the Force user in the group.

 

Incidentally I feel the same way about fringe characters in general.  In EotE we are dealing with criminal elements.  Piss off the wrong people and you are probably going to end up dead.  Doesn't matter if you are a PC or not.  There is no PC immunity in my games.

 

 

Sounds like giving out Bounty Obligation, to me!

 

-EF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Agreed^

 

A lot of it falls on the GM.  I limited the number of Force sensitives to 1 in a group of 5.  I also regularly remind them that using the Force causes disturbances that others can sense, i.e. The Sith and Inquisitors.  So, go ahead and do whatever you can and want within the rules but just know that you are going to bring down a world of hurt on not just yourself but your companions also.  

 

Again, it is all the GM's responsibility.  There are repercussions in the story to being to uber and the GM has to make sure to enforce those responsibilities.  I am sure the other players would not be to happy if their character is killed by an Inquisitor in an effort to get to the Force user in the group.

 

Incidentally I feel the same way about fringe characters in general.  In EotE we are dealing with criminal elements.  Piss off the wrong people and you are probably going to end up dead.  Doesn't matter if you are a PC or not.  There is no PC immunity in my games.

 

 

Sounds like giving out Bounty Obligation, to me!

 

-EF

 

Or you can just use that when their existing Obligation pops.

 

A previous system discussed this GM perspective too (I want to say WEG in a short and shockingly thoughtful and foresight filled bit, but WEG didn't really like talking darksiders and WotC delved more in to the topic so it might have been them). It talked about how when running a Darkside character the GM should tweak the story to make it more tragic. Making even victories feel kinda hollow because of what you had to do to get there, and having darkside characters goals and functions be warped so even "good" intentions usually result in "bad" actions or results. Sorta like how in RotS Darth Vader brings peace to the galaxy by just killing the leadership of the CIS and putting Palpy in charge.

 

It might come out like a Pally-hunt a little bit, but if the players keep flipping point and acting like a-holes moving the story in a direction that results in less shooing between good and bad, and more choosing between bad and bad might make a statement.

 

Also you can use NPCs to point this out a bit too. When the NPCs that show up to help the players stop being friendly Mon Cals, wookies, and humans, and start being abrasive and selfish aqualish, gamorreans, and quarrans, the players might start to get the hint. Nothing like having that totally awesome bounty hunter you've run with for three adventures turning his back when the going gets tough to make you think maybe you're not hanging with the best crowd...

kaosoe and EldritchFire like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So for example, move... assuming you rolled two white pips.. you activated the move with one pip, and your second could increase the speed (you have to as the default speed is too slow to do damage) ...

 

Move only works on objects. You can't use it on people/beings/ cats/ etc..

 

 

First point, there's absolutely nothing to say the Control upgrades require a pip. The ability to move objects at speed is a part of the basic power (assuming you have that upgrade) and doesn't require another pip or action.

 

You need to spend a pip to:

 

- one to activate the Basic power 

- one to activate no. of extra targets up to your Magnitude

- one to active all of your Strength upgrades for larger targets

- one to activate any Range upgrades up to your max

 

And that's it, by RAW.   I think if you're requiring more than that, you're seriously nerfing the power, unless you have 6 dice like Josep has :)   Asking for one pip per upgrade makes using the power beyond what EoE and AoR characters can attain. If you want to play a really low-magic campaign, that's your prerogative, but I can't see many players wanting to buy into it, then. 

 

 

Finally, there's nothing I can see that prevents you moving living beings.  It vaguely says 'objects' which I assume translates to 'things'.  I can't see any reason why you couldn't hurl rancors if you can hurl ATATs.  The fluff for the power says 'theoretically the Force can move anything' and I assume living things come under 'anything'. 

 

I'm sure I've seen force-users chuck enemies around in the various videogames like KotOR. Bastila does it to Mission at one point. 

 

Influence doesn't work on non-living things like droids, but it specifically mentions that. 

Edited by Maelora
Josep Maria and Aservan like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aside from my opinion of the OP nature of Move, there is clearly canon that contradicts the 'no moving beings' ruling.  They do it constantly in TCW.  In addition the gray box on p. 279 in EoE makes the suggestion of it being used to catch a falling colleague.

Edited by 2P51
awayputurwpn, GL309, Maelora and 1 other like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Throwing things into people came out to something like falling damage.  It was negligible as they were able to soak most of it.  Unless you dropped a ship on them or something (but that’s evil force at work). 

 

Why on earth would that be the case?

 

Why is dropping a ship on your enemy any different to shooting him or chopping his head off with a lightsaber? 

 

Dropping a ship on an orphanage or something might count as bad, but normal combat doesn't count as that. In the movies, Luke kills a whole bunch of people in every film. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aside from my opinion of the OP nature of Move, there is clearly canon that contradicts the 'no moving beings' ruling.  They do it constantly in TCW.

 

Last time out, our Exile force-fed a Hutt a thermal detonator, then launched him up in the air to Extreme range like a gory firework.  Yes, that added some Obligation points...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Finally, there's nothing I can see that prevents you moving living beings.  It vaguely says 'objects' which I assume translates to 'things'.  I can't see any reason why you couldn't hurl rancors if you can hurl ATATs.  The fluff for the power says 'theoretically the Force can move anything' and I assume living things come under 'anything'. 

 

I'm sure I've seen force-users chuck enemies around in the various videogames like KotOR. Bastila does it to Mission at one point. 

 

Influence doesn't work on non-living things like droids, but it specifically mentions that. 

 

Correct. You can Move anything that you have the upgrades and pips to Move. Humans are Sil-1, so at Short range you could Move a human with two pips (assuming you've got the required talents)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Aside from my opinion of the OP nature of Move, there is clearly canon that contradicts the 'no moving beings' ruling.  They do it constantly in TCW.

 

Last time out, our Exile force-fed a Hutt a thermal detonator, then launched him up in the air to Extreme range like a gory firework.  Yes, that added some Obligation points...

 

They float grenades to targets in the TCW as well.  There are creative ways to use it for certain.  I just see the silhouette issue as power creep that needs to be reined in.  Shoving enemies hither and yon, floating grenades, all good.  They also use it as a sort of Force grav chute in TCW, also creative I think.

Ranger1060 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with you, 2P51.  Eff-You tries to convince us that Monobrow Boy can chuck around Star Destroyers, and possibly entire planets, with one twitch of his monobrow.  I can see why any GM would want to discourage that kind of nonsense.

 

But personally, I'm okay with Silhouette 4 being the max.  There's still a lot of things it can't move.

 

In play, I find the main issue with Move is that it tends to make the character one-note. When you have a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.  And increasingly our Exile is thinking that pretty much every problem can be solved by launching something into something else at terminal velocity.

 

(But that's a actually a part of the whole character development, about what happens when a young force-user gets over-confident and cocky...)

Edited by Maelora
Aservan likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, something like that :)

 

Though we don't have traditional 'light/dark' sides (in fact we have a Jedi/Sith/Clones/Seperatist faction...)

 

But yes, we still have 'karma', and pride comes before a fall.

 

I'd just sooner have all that stuff role-played than tracked by some fiddly mechanic that is only going to result in arguments...

Edited by Maelora

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Aside from my opinion of the OP nature of Move, there is clearly canon that contradicts the 'no moving beings' ruling.  They do it constantly in TCW.

 

Last time out, our Exile force-fed a Hutt a thermal detonator, then launched him up in the air to Extreme range like a gory firework.  Yes, that added some Obligation points...

 

Couple of questions, was the exile told before hand performing these actions would incur obligation?  How much obligation was gained?

 

Obvious displays of Force powers like this in my game would attract so much unwanted attention that the PCs would have no where to go.  As a GM I am not sure I would offer obligation...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obvious displays of Force powers like this in my game would attract so much unwanted attention that the PCs would have no where to go.  As a GM I am not sure I would offer obligation...

 

 

The player's deliberately doing this, as part of the story and character trajectory.  Sort of a 'SpiderMan' thing when he doesn't apprehend the guy who later kills Uncle Ben.

 

Also, our set-up is very different - with Palpatine long dead, the Empire is nowhere near as pervasive.  The existing Emperor is ageing, ill and paranoid, and has been fighting the Alliance for 20 years on all fronts, draining its coffers and morale.  The Imperial internal war has moved from the 'cold' period where the factions were just screwing each other over, to actually shooting at one another.  

 

The Empire is probably less of an issue to the party than the various criminal factions and the returning Sith/Jedi...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obvious displays of Force powers like this in my game would attract so much unwanted attention that the PCs would have no where to go.  As a GM I am not sure I would offer obligation...

 

 

Before the inevitable "Obligation should be a player choice" replies, it should also be noted that Maelora does not run obligation as written in the book.

Edited by kaosoe
Maelora likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed^

 

A lot of it falls on the GM.  I limited the number of Force sensitives to 1 in a group of 5.  I also regularly remind them that using the Force causes disturbances that others can sense, i.e. The Sith and Inquisitors.  So, go ahead and do whatever you can and want within the rules but just know that you are going to bring down a world of hurt on not just yourself but your companions also.  

 

Again, it is all the GM's responsibility.  There are repercussions in the story to being to uber and the GM has to make sure to enforce those responsibilities.  I am sure the other players would not be to happy if their character is killed by an Inquisitor in an effort to get to the Force user in the group.

 

Incidentally I feel the same way about fringe characters in general.  In EotE we are dealing with criminal elements.  Piss off the wrong people and you are probably going to end up dead.  Doesn't matter if you are a PC or not.  There is no PC immunity in my games.

Then I applaud you, my friend.  It's not always easy to GM hardships.  As I pointed out in my post, more times then not, when a force sensitive got too reliant on the force, the party would turn them in for the reward, dead or alive, with no prompting from me.   Doesn't help that my bounty hunter is an assassin, and an IG 100 (magna)droid.  

This made sense as on the fringe, the 100K reward for the capture of a jedi, is often far too much for the population to ignore.   In  addition, I have to add that the general population believes the Jedi are why the empire exists.  CNN has blasted the jedi for 20+ years now, unopposed in view point(s).  They say what Palpatine tells them to say.  There simply are not enough jedi running around to make a difference in those viewpoints.   I often point to Obi, in the cantina...  it took all of 5 minutes for a squad of stormies to show up once the blade came out.  That was on some back water planet that really had little imperial presence.  Imagine on a core world?  The party doesn't want that kind of attention. 

 

I have allowed two force sensitives in one of my group(s). I have two groups that the players can shift back and forth between.  One is my younger guys, that seem to point more towards combat... the other is my older guys and females that seem more interested in the role playing.  One of my groups has no force types (older group), the other has two that have the force, though one is not traditional in the least.  

 

One is the dude that keeps dying (see above), all those deaths I mention are the same player.  He keeps remaking the same guy, making the similar mistakes (the joys of being young).  Even if he isn't using darkside points, he uses the force to harm to other beings, or for selfish reasons.   I call this "beating the pathfinder out of someone", as its that pathfinder/3.X mentality that's giving him the idea that a PC can do no wrong.  Coincidentally, the argument he keeps presenting to me as the reason I should bow to his demands of character concept.

 

The other one isn't trying for the force at all, but made a Gand, and wanted a way to represent the findsmen talent.  As I don't have an actual mechanic for it, we based it on the force (as previous editions of the SW rpg have) and call it a type of force.  He rolls his discipline- along with a small ritual, and if successful it points out a general direction.  As this take time and currently has a material component (a tea made with a specific leaf from his home world), it's not powerful by any means.  He could do it all day, in a sense triangulating what he was looking for, depending on how far away he started i.e. across the galaxy and he better bring a lunch, as we are gonna be there a minute.   I just do this with him because it makes him unique and peppers the gand as a diverse species.

 

Even with the F&D book coming, my players don't want jedi, for the most part just that one dude that keeps doing it wrong.  They say it is a stupid time period to want to play a jedi, given that the situations where a jedi could really shine are going to be exceptionally limited given the witnesses everywhere, and nobody wants old Chronic Bronchitis to come snooping around.

 

 

They float grenades to targets in the TCW as well.  There are creative ways to use it for certain.  I just see the silhouette issue as power creep that needs to be reined in.  Shoving enemies hither and yon, floating grenades, all good.  They also use it as a sort of Force grav chute in TCW, also creative I think.

 

This is a great example of playing a jedi "smartly".  it's thinking on your feet, doing small things that tend to go unnoticed, while providing a large impact (no pun intended).   Someone who acts in such a manner is exactly the woman I want playing a jedi in my campaign(s).

Edited by Shamrock
kaosoe likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So for example, move... assuming you rolled two white pips.. you activated the move with one pip, and your second could increase the speed (you have to as the default speed is too slow to do damage) ...

 

Move only works on objects. You can't use it on people/beings/ cats/ etc..

 

 

First point, there's absolutely nothing to say the Control upgrades require a pip. The ability to move objects at speed is a part of the basic power (assuming you have that upgrade) and doesn't require another pip or action.

 

You need to spend a pip to:

 

- one to activate the Basic power 

- one to activate no. of extra targets up to your Magnitude

- one to active all of your Strength upgrades for larger targets

- one to activate any Range upgrades up to your max

 

And that's it, by RAW.   I think if you're requiring more than that, you're seriously nerfing the power, unless you have 6 dice like Josep has :)   Asking for one pip per upgrade makes using the power beyond what EoE and AoR characters can attain. If you want to play a really low-magic campaign, that's your prerogative, but I can't see many players wanting to buy into it, then. 

 

 

Finally, there's nothing I can see that prevents you moving living beings.  It vaguely says 'objects' which I assume translates to 'things'.  I can't see any reason why you couldn't hurl rancors if you can hurl ATATs.  The fluff for the power says 'theoretically the Force can move anything' and I assume living things come under 'anything'. 

 

I'm sure I've seen force-users chuck enemies around in the various videogames like KotOR. Bastila does it to Mission at one point. 

 

Influence doesn't work on non-living things like droids, but it specifically mentions that. 

 

Those were Sam Stewarts recommendations in the pod cast.  I didn't invent them.  In truth, I'd have to go re-read most of the force section, as I use them so infrequently in regards to PCs.   But he did make a point of saying objects meant objects, unless you were using dark side.  Technically, I wouldn't prevent a player from moving a being with light side force, but the catch would be they couldn't harm said being.   If they fell off a boat, and one used the force to rescue them, I wouldn't harp on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That would jive with the not using the Force to attack a bit, but if the live target were attacking innocents in some way.  Bottom line is how the Force is used is going to have to be judged situationally in each session.  

Ranger1060 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simplified Force morality:

 

- If guys with dark robes, red lightsabers or yellow and red eyes does it, then its Dark Side.

 

- The rest can be or not...

 

The rest... well... watch the movies and Clone Wars XDD

2P51 likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even with the F&D book coming, my players don't want jedi, for the most part just that one dude that keeps doing it wrong.  They say it is a stupid time period to want to play a jedi, given that the situations where a jedi could really shine are going to be exceptionally limited given the witnesses everywhere, and nobody wants old Chronic Bronchitis to come snooping around.

 

I have a player playing a Force Sensitive who had a similar complaint. It's difficult for me to relate since I love playing force users in an era where they are supposed to be sneaky and rare. It makes the force sensitives still around more special.

 

We've talked about it at length and we ended up re-rolling his character to put less emphasis on the flashy force powers and more emphasis on the low-key powers like Sense and Foresee. It worked out really well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don't bother with 'light' or 'dark' side beyond what's in the EOE book - flip a Destiny and spend strain for using the 'other' side. It's simple and elegant and doesn't cause arguments.

 

And yet, I'd have thought that telekinetically disarming and dangling someone was much more peaceful than just shooting them, or chopping them in half with a glowstick.   I mean, you don't have to hoik them into a wall at fatal velocity...

 

But yes, Influence and Sense seem much more keeping with the Exile class tree.  Attract too much attention, and everyone is going to want a piece of you, for various reasons.

kaosoe likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time out, our Exile force-fed a Hutt a thermal detonator, then launched him up in the air to Extreme range like a gory firework.  Yes, that added some Obligation points...

 

Funny. I did that with the last Witness to visit my door... Small world, eh?

Maelora and kaosoe like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also point out that as far as canon sources are concerned, I don't recall ever seeing anyone get force "moved" in relation to an attack.  If they could do that, why wouldn't vader have just thrown Luke instead of chucking air conditioners at him?  Why wouldn't Palpatine have chucked Yoda?  Or Dooku have thrown Yoda... it had to be easier then bringing the roof down.   Even in the clone wars cartoon, I don't recall seeing it happen.  They threw droids (objects) around, but droids are not "beings".  I've never seen them throw a being.  I've seen them save people with a force "catch".   Obviously, Vader could lift people while choking them.... so I don't really have an answer.  Maybe The Force just doesn't allow it.

The only place I've ever seen someone flat out get "moved" was in the force unleashed (not canon). 

Edited by Shamrock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0