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khaine1969

Force push?

91 posts in this topic

Looking for a cross section of opinions here.

Using the force power tree for push...The first control on the left branch says you can now use move to propel something fast enough to hurt someone right? I grab a silhouette 1 (using str upgrade) object and mash you in the head with it doing 10 dmg, or I use magnitude and grab multiple objects and mash you and your buddies in the head with them using autofire...right?

Why would I not use the strength and magnitude to grab you and your buddies directly and mash YOU up against something ( like a wall or just the ground itself) this would guarantee that each target was hit and took the base 10 damage and wouldn't require an attack roll ( just the discipline check). We see this several times in the films with qui-gon and obi doing it to battledroids left and right, and Anakin and obi doing it to each other in the end of ROTS.

Would you as a GM allow this interpretation of the move power? If not how would you model the "force push"?  It costs a lot of points to get to that level of use and requires multiple force points to activate so I don't really see it as unbalanced.

 

T

By the way I went thru the first 5 pages of posts and skimmed the FAQ for this, but if I missed it point me to it and I'll go from there.

Edited by khaine1969

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There was a long thread about this. I think the consensus was everyone would allow some variation of it. Mostly it boiled down to should it be some kind of opposed roll and/or some way to mitigate it on the part of the pushed, i.e. Dodge or Coordination in some way.

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Did the devs or anyone "official" chime in on the subject? As move is written you don't get any resistance against someone pulling a gun out of your hand, or any kind of defense against some striking you with a single object....so it stands to reason you wouldn't get one for being flung against a wall. This also makes me hope and pray that in FaD force users get some way to defend against or reduce the effect of force powers used against them...kinda like Anakin and obi opposing each other before they both went flying.

 

T

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There are plenty of examples of force users attacking/defending each other in the movies and the clone wars. I have to imagine that F&D will have rules to cover this. In the meantime if you want to keep it simple just use an opposed discipline check.

awayputurwpn and Ghostofman like this

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There was no official feedback as I'm sure they were just waiting on F&D. Since any use of it is interpretation, including opposed checks or mitigating skills/talents seems reasonable to me. You get to use Coordination falling, seems like being thrown is falling sideways imo.

Ranger1060, GL309 and whafrog like this

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Why would I not use the strength and magnitude to grab you and your buddies directly and mash YOU up against something ( like a wall or just the ground itself) this would guarantee that each target was hit and took the base 10 damage and wouldn't require an attack roll ( just the discipline check). We see this several times in the films with qui-gon and obi doing it to battledroids left and right, and Anakin and obi doing it to each other in the end of ROTS.

 

The Discipline check is the attack roll, even without this variant.  There aren't two separate checks, the Discipline check just follows all rules for ranged attacks (with the exception of difficulty being based on silhouette)

 

Page 279 has a box labeled Force Powers and Narrative where it talks about using the powers in creative ways with a GM's permission.  One of the examples is using Move to catch a falling teammate.  This makes me think using Move to lift enemies is a perfectly reasonable use.

Edited by Revanchist7

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Based on movies and TV Series (canon) most Force Powers seems than have some resistance. Force Grip seems the only one that has ever been blocked, but yes interrupted.

 

- Mind trick (also illusion variations) -> Mental resistance (Discipline)

- Force Push -> Can be blocked without moving and also can even be evaded (Maybe is a ranged attack???)

- Force Lightning -> Block (and return) with lightsaber and hand and also seems that with some physical resitance (Ranged attack and Resilence?)

- Force Grip (move/disarm?) -> No defense until the moment, just interruptions

- Dathomirian "Voodoo" -> This one also seems unstoppable.

 

I think that there aren't any more canonical Force Powers, but in general therms these ones are the actual possibilities.

Edited by Josep Maria

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There is an order 66 podcast that addresses the force issues... they are not nearly as powerful as they appear.  Its one of the earlier podcasts shortly after they came out with the system.  I'll look it up later this evening and get you the info.  If you're taking issue with the way the force is presented, then listen to said podcast, because its a lot harder to do then it comes off.

Edited by Shamrock
2P51 and Josep Maria like this

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If you have the room to do it, and produce enough pips to activate Range upgrades, lifting someone/thing and dropping them does more damage than any attack you're likely to make.

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^ but still applies soak.

Each upgrade required a force point to activate. So it came down to requiring a ton of force points to do the really cool stuff.

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Move is also super dangerous, if it can be pulled off correctly.  The ability to pick up a Silhouette 4 object, and throw it at Extreme Range for 40 damage...yeah..  Good luck? 

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^ but still applies soak.

Each upgrade required a force point to activate. So it came down to requiring a ton of force points to do the really cool stuff.

That's interesting, because to avoid the Jedi Messiah silliness that was how I intended to interpret Move, a Force pip for everything, every strength/silhouette upgrade, every individual object lifted with magnitude, each range band increase, every object thrown, etc.  So theoretically everything is still possible but you would be looking at needing a seriously high Force Rating, and certainly no Exile is tossing AT-ATs.

 

I'd be real interested in that podcast.  I had sent a fairly long multi prong question off about all that.  Been awhile and I just assumed the answer would come some time post F&D or be answered in F&D.

Edited by 2P51

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^ but still applies soak.

Each upgrade required a force point to activate. So it came down to requiring a ton of force points to do the really cool stuff.

That's interesting, because to avoid the Jedi Messiah silliness that was how I intended to interpret Move, a Force pip for everything, every strength/silhouette upgrade, every individual object lifted with magnitude, each range band increase, every object thrown, etc.  So theoretically everything is still possible but you would be looking at needing a seriously high Force Rating, and certainly no Exile is tossing AT-ATs.

 

I'd be real interested in that podcast.  I had sent a fairly long multi prong question off about all that.  Been awhile and I just assumed the answer would come some time post F&D or be answered in F&D.

 

I want to relisten to that one too.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but per RAW isn't this pretty tough as is? The strength upgrade doesn't say its a multiactivable, so to get to Sil 4 you gotta buy all the upgrades, as well as the range and control to weaponize.

 

So that's...what? 90xp total, and you still need to roll at least 2 pips, 3 if you want range? Seems like an awful lot to invest in a single move.

 

At least that's how I read it. Would translate well as this would allow the likes of Yoda to be powerful  through xp spent on actual powers, but have an FR that's actually rather modest.

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Yes but pips aren't an issue, if you have DP showing you can just flip one, suffer the Strain for each dark one you need to convert, and then easily have enough on a couple Force dice.  Plus, I wouldn't expect a 900 year old Jedi Master to have a modest Force Rating, I'd rather have using Move something that's hard on a large scale even for a 900 year old Jedi Master so that it nixes the Jedi Messiah stuff.

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Did the devs or anyone "official" chime in on the subject? As move is written you don't get any resistance against someone pulling a gun out of your hand, or any kind of defense against some striking you with a single object....so it stands to reason you wouldn't get one for being flung against a wall. 

 

Personally I hate overpowered FU-style force-use, but this seems to be the case by rules-as-written.

 

So, in the case of Move, it's one pip to use the power, another to increase the strength to a maximum of Silhouette 4 depending on upgrades. Possibly another if you want to do it at range, and another for multiple targets. 

 

And 4 pips is doable, even with just two dice. You have a  1 in 9 chance, and if you only need 3 dice, a 1 in 3 chance. Two dice give a minimum of two pips, so if you're within Short range and have the upgrades, you can fling a YT1300 or ATAT automatically.

 

It does seem overpowered, but you need to pour a lot of XP into it, and there's a role-playing drawback that everyone is either hunting you or trying to recruit you.  'Move' really does end a lot of fights, like the time we threw a hutt and his barge into a giant rotator fan. Messy.  And the poor Moff can't look at his favourite ATAT after what the PCs did to it... 

Edited by Maelora

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Maelora, you simply must tell me more about these Move stories.  Mine are so limited to my player using a B1 "Roger Roger" droid and hitting him against another B1.

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It does seem overpowered, but you need to pour a lot of XP into it, and there's a role-playing drawback that everyone is either hunting you or trying to recruit you. 

Absolutely.

The threat of detection has done enough, so far, to keep the Force User in my game in appropriate check.  I haven't had to bring the hammer down, so to speak, I have just made it clear that I will.

 

As I have said elsewhere, however, my well-behaved players are a blessing. :)

Edited by Aluminium Falcon
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Also just thinking about it even the AT-AT chuck isn't that powerful.

 

If you wanted to be a RAW monkey you'd need to activate the power, activate the full str upgrade, activate or multi activate the range upgrade if you want any distance. The magnitude upgrade too as no matter want you chuck you need that to hit multiple targets (excluding grouped minions), and finally the damage is measured in personal scale not vehicle, so the at-ats armor can take it.

 

So you got a Lotta xp there, 4 pips for the full monty, probably more if you haven't maxed the tree, so you're gonna need some decent FR, minimum 2, more if you actually want to do it reliably (assuming you aren't calling on the dark side, which still isn't a sure thing depending on what you are doing and the pip count you need), and the AT-AT will only go down narratively, as you can't actually inflict HT or crits...

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A lot more pips at my table.  1 for the power, 4 for the silhouette, 1 to throw, 1 for each range band.  Makes it possible still but not something that a lowby Exile or Emergent is going to accomplish.

Ranger1060 likes this

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A lot more pips at my table.  1 for the power, 4 for the silhouette, 1 to throw, 1 for each range band.  Makes it possible still but not something that a lowby Exile or Emergent is going to accomplish.

So you need minimum FR4, and a good roll? Why not just nix strength above 3?

Edited by Ghostofman
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Maelora, you simply must tell me more about these Move stories.  Mine are so limited to my player using a B1 "Roger Roger" droid and hitting him against another B1.

 

Yes, whenever our Exile gets 3 pips, it's 'Stormtrooper Skittles' time.  (Or TIE Skittles time, seeing as how it costs no more to Move any object up to your maximum Silhouette Upgrade....)

 

Move seems kinda overpowered, but Jo is Brawn 2 with no armour, and even a minion with a rifle could one-shot her if she's not careful.  Plus, she has no combat skills outside telekinesis and shouting stormtroopers to death using Improved Scathing Tirade. And trust me, hearing 'HEY STORMTROOPERS - YOU SUCK!!!' gets old when it's used every single round.

 

Also, a full Move tree costs 150 XP, plus another 130 to get the second Force dice.  That's a significant investment, I think.  

 

I see your point about not wanting a repeat of the FU nonsense, 2P51, but if you nerf Move so hard, surely nobody would want it? 

 

(and as Ghost just said, if you really don't want PCs using the Millenium Falcon or an ATAT as a bowling ball, why not just cap Move at Silhouette 2 or 3?)

Edited by Maelora
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To allow it to still be possible it's just not something that an entry-level user will be able to accomplish. Yoda is clearly straining when he moves the X wing. He has some upgrades to range. So to me to allow an exile to roll two dice and move a walker is ridiculous. Just my table and how I run it, others can do whatever they like, I think my way is more in the spirit of the movies.

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