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Joe Boss Red Seven

THE BLACK SUN COMETH!

250 posts in this topic

So Black Sun is the obvious option for a new faction, not that I know personally, but I'm curious does the Star Wars universe contain enough to create a faction for the Chiss?  Because I would love that!

 

(Even though the Chiss don't technically exist anymore  :( )

I think the Clawcraft is their only "major" fighter we are aware of.

 

(And technically they exist until Disney says otherwise, alot of people missed that clarification in all of the EU is dead QQ)

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What's wrong with dividing the good and the bad? Why do we need a third faction, instead of something like expansions with dual-faction bases (Empire generic/ace, rebel generic/ace). Really, Fett (and Solo?) establish FFG's stance on "independents".

 

Besides I'd rather FFG didn't divert attention to some third party that may not be interesting when it's actually implemented. I'd rather keep to two of each wave instead of diverting. That way we'd get to the awesome fighters (like the Gunboat, Avenger) much quicker. As cool as it would be to have six ships in each wave, dropping wave 5 down to 2 ships is kinda concerning that 6 ships per wave just can't be done. And again, would rather see more rebels and Imperials than pirates.

 

If you boil it down to simple math, there's a pretty indisputable reason for introducing a third faction.

 

Two factions = fewer total ships/options, you'll get all possible Imp/Reb ships eventually

Three+ factions = more total ships/options, you'll still get all possible Imp/Reb ships eventually

 

 

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...does the Star Wars universe contain enough to create a faction for the Chiss?  Because I would love that!

Well, the Empire and Rebellion started with two ships each and will (once Wave 5 is released) have nine. Assume, for the sake of argument, that a new faction needs at least half that many to be viable; rounding down leaves us at four, meaning a hypothetical Chiss faction would be in about the same place the two original factions were at the release of Wave 2.

So are there four Chiss ships? I'm not very well versed in that corner of the EU either.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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If you boil it down to simple math, there's a pretty indisputable reason for introducing a third faction.

 

Two factions = fewer total ships/options, you'll get all possible Imp/Reb ships eventually

Three+ factions = more total ships/options, you'll still get all possible Imp/Reb ships eventually

 

 

Simple math? Indisputable? Really?

 

More isn't always better.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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What's wrong with dividing the good and the bad? Why do we need a third faction, instead of something like expansions with dual-faction bases (Empire generic/ace, rebel generic/ace). Really, Fett (and Solo?) establish FFG's stance on "independents".

 

Besides I'd rather FFG didn't divert attention to some third party that may not be interesting when it's actually implemented. I'd rather keep to two of each wave instead of diverting. That way we'd get to the awesome fighters (like the Gunboat, Avenger) much quicker. As cool as it would be to have six ships in each wave, dropping wave 5 down to 2 ships is kinda concerning that 6 ships per wave just can't be done. And again, would rather see more rebels and Imperials than pirates.

 

If you boil it down to simple math, there's a pretty indisputable reason for introducing a third faction.

 

Two factions = fewer total ships/options, you'll get all possible Imp/Reb ships eventually

Three+ factions = more total ships/options, you'll still get all possible Imp/Reb ships eventually

 

 

Yeah and the game we love will continue on for years to come.

:)

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I have no idea what this thread us supposed to be saying.

I am saying that WHEN THE BLACK SUN FACTION IS RELEASED, I hope the three ships pictured in my initial post are included in that wave, because I like them very much....

Clear now?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Much clearer and you really should have said that in the OP instead of 50 posts and a day later. When you first posted the thread the original post came across like you were claiming "yeah!!! FFG have announced they are doing a black sun faction, here are some pics of the first ships they are going to do!!!", except you didn't actually SAY anything, you just left it for the readers to guess what those pictures were meant to indicate. Edited by Forgottenlore

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I have no idea what this thread us supposed to be saying.

I am saying that WHEN THE BLACK SUN FACTION IS RELEASED, I hope the three ships pictured in my initial post are included in that wave, because I like them very much....

Clear now?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Much clearer and you really should have said that in the OP instead of 50 posts and a day later. When you first posted the thread the original post came across like you were claiming "yeah!!! FFG have announced they are doing a black sun faction, here are some pics of the first ships they are going to do!!!", except you didn't actually SAY anything, you just left it for the readers to guess what those pictures were meant to indicate.

 

 

Sorry about that misunderstanding buddie.

:)

 

I do think that our FFG boys are doing a Black Sun Faction. As do others here.

What they will actually release is a much less certain prospect.

FFG has proven they are willing to make anything that is Original Trilogy, and directly related such as Rouge Squadron and Video Game ships.

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If you boil it down to simple math, there's a pretty indisputable reason for introducing a third faction.

That's pretty faulty logic.

First it assumes that FFG can't simply make up new ships for Reb's and Imps.

Also it assumes there will be no new canon ships, which we all know is untrue what with Rebellion coming out this fall.

So no your "math" is far from indisputable, and to be honest isn't really even math, because math doesn't say More = Better only that More = More.

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I do think that our FFG boys are doing a Black Sun Faction. As do others here.

What they will actually release is a much less certain prospect.

FFG has proven they are willing to make anything that is Original Trilogy, and directly related such as Rouge Squadron and Video Game ships.

I would rather it was a generic "fringe" faction, or even just "unaligned" so it can cover ships from minor powers. But if they do give it a specific identity, yeah, black sun is the only option.

Mikael Hasselstein likes this

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I do think that our FFG boys are doing a Black Sun Faction. As do others here.

What they will actually release is a much less certain prospect.

FFG has proven they are willing to make anything that is Original Trilogy, and directly related such as Rouge Squadron and Video Game ships.

I would rather it was a generic "fringe" faction, or even just "unaligned" so it can cover ships from minor powers. But if they do give it a specific identity, yeah, black sun is the only option.

 

 

You know it can work fine either way.

:)

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Yeah, while I support fringe ships, I'm not sure how hot-to-trot I am for 'Black Sun', specifically.

 

I'm not up to date on Shadows of the Empire, nor can I say that what little I've seen of Xizor (or his ship) particularly tickles me. It just doesn't feel right.

 

Now, that's not a compelling reason in itself for FFG to not produce this (the Phantom and the Defender don't feel right to me either, but we still have them). 

 

I also can see them producing fringe good guys and fringe bad guys to be assumed to align with the existing factions. But, overall, I think I'd like to see a dark-yellow-themed tokens/dials and a line of new and repainted ships that really give us the flavor of galactic criminals.

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I still fail to see how a new faction is better than merely assigning the ships to the existing factions.

 

Because the more ships with different abilities you add to a single faction, the more combinations become possible within that faction, and the more difficult it becomes to keep the faction balanced as a result.  You also run the risk of diluting or otherwise adversely affecting the existing factions look, theme, feel and playstyle.

 

By introducing ships as part a new faction however you can explore rules, abilities and pilot skills radically different from what we already have without potentially damaging the balance of the existing factions.

 

This would allow players to field an entirely new force which looks, feels and plays totally different from both the Rebels and Imperials, without compromising the existing balance of the game.

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Maybe it's just my experience with games of all varieties, but adding additional factions usually unbalances them, not the other way around. Game balance isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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I want this...

 

snoopycard_zps3d27d12f.png

In actuality it should treat all hard right turns as greens and all hard lefts as reds (or be incapable of making hard left turns) - the Camel's rotary engine gave it a strong right-turn bias, not left.

 

This has been your Annoyingly Nitpicky Historical Lesson of the Day. Enjoy!

 

PS - any Wings of Glory players here? 

 

That's why it is Snoopy's ability. :P

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Maybe it's just my experience with games of all varieties, but adding additional factions usually unbalances them, not the other way around. Game balance isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

For most games it's an issue of time. Early on in a games life cycle more factions adds variety and makes it easier to balance abilities by keeping the number of potential combos small. As the game gets older and the design space fills up though, the designers start to either copy existing elements, just with a new paint job to drive sales, or getting more radical with the design space leading yo a greater likelihood of significant imbalance. Even then, a new faction is more of a symptom of the underlying problems creating the imbalance rather than the cause of it.

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Maybe it's just my experience with games of all varieties, but adding additional factions usually unbalances them, not the other way around. Game balance isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

 

Game balance is potentially a good argument against introducing a new faction, but your argument is so general that I'll need more convincing.

 

For example, what would be the source of the imbalance?

 

Of course, the third faction would potentially underpowered from the start, because it would have fewer option to begin with. However, that sort of imbalance is one that can be dealt with and it could come into its own over time.

 

But beyond that, it seems like the greater threat to unbalancing actually comes from adding ships to existing factions. Because if you add an element to a set of many pre-existing elements, then the plausible number of game-breaking combinations is much larger, than if you introduce new material that cannot be combined with existing material, because all the potentially game-breaking combinations are contained within the faction.

 

Of course, the upgrade cards can be used outside of the new faction (unless they say otherwise), but that's the case for any new upgrade in any faction.

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For example, what would be the source of the imbalance?

For one thing, the need to make the new faction attractive to people who already own a bunch of stuff by ramping up the power of that faction.

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Maybe it's just my experience with games of all varieties, but adding additional factions usually unbalances them, not the other way around. Game balance isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

 

There's arguments both ways.  However I think it's when a game developer goes OTT in the pursuit of dollars which throws the balance off completely.  Whether it's by adding new factions, new units for existing factions or simply revising the main game rules every two years... *glares accusingly at an Aquila*.

 

But you haven't actually addressed the points raised in the earlier post, have you?  Adding four new Rebel ships (are there that many recogisable ones left?) and four new Imperial ships would open up far more in-game combinations and possibilities than introducing 8 ships as an entirely new faction.  That's simple mathematics.  The existing factions wouldn't actually change - they'd just have something new to shoot at.  And as long as that "something new" is different in theme and application, but balanced as well... what's the problem?

Edited by FTS Gecko
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Look at any number of existing games and ask yourself which would be harder to balance, a new unit in an existing faction or a completely new faction? This could apply to any polarized game, like RPGs or RTSs.

Gecko: you're assuming that same-faction interactions are the only ones that matter. Yes, every new ship with an Astromech slot deserves careful consideration from the design team. Every new ship must also be weighed against every opposing ship as well, so the introduction of a third faction means that a) it must be internally balanced against itself, b) it must be balanced against both other factions, and c) those other factions must also be balanced against the new one. That is a lot of potential interactions to be considered at one time, and FFG doesn't have the benefit of fixing them with a patch after the fact.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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For one thing, the need to make the new faction attractive to people who already own a bunch of stuff by ramping up the power of that faction.

 

That's an assumption.  There's no reason for a new faction to feature power creep of any kind, that's just sloppy game design.  All it would need to do is offer something different to what the Imperials and Rebels currently do.

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Look at any number of existing games and ask yourself which would be harder to balance, a new unit in an existing faction or a completely new faction? This could apply to any polarized game, like RPGs or RTSs.

 

When you're talking about incremental changes such as we see in X-Wing - with ship statistics, pilot abilities, upgrades and so on all adding to the overall effectiveness of your force - adding a new unit into an existing faction can be much harder to balance.  2 x 2 = 4, 4 x 4 =16, 16 x 16 = 256... and so on.  The more ships you add to a faction, the more options you open up within that faction, and the more possibilities you need to take into account.

 

I'd argue that adding the Z-95 to the Rebel fleet has changed the game a hell of a lot more than adding the Z-95 to an entirely new faction would have.  The Z-95 has changed the way the Rebel forces can be played on a fundamental level, if it was introduced as part of a new faction it's arrival wouldn't have changed the way Rebel lists were played at all.

Radarman5 and SoulCrusherEx like this

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Maybe it's just my experience with games of all varieties, but adding additional factions usually unbalances them, not the other way around. Game balance isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

 

There's arguments both ways.  However I think it's when a game developer goes OTT in the pursuit of dollars which throws the balance off completely.  Whether it's by adding new factions, new units for existing factions or simply revising the main game rules every two years... *glares accusingly at an Aquila*.

 

But you haven't actually addressed the points raised in the earlier post, have you?  Adding four new Rebel ships (are there that many recogisable ones left?) and four new Imperial ships would open up far more in-game combinations and possibilities than introducing 8 ships as an entirely new faction.  That's simple mathematics.  The existing factions wouldn't actually change - they'd just have something new to shoot at.  And as long as that "something new" is different in theme and application, but balanced as well... what's the problem?

 

Although if a new, say "fringe" faction could use generics of some of the ships in the other 2 factions......

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For example, what would be the source of the imbalance?

For one thing, the need to make the new faction attractive to people who already own a bunch of stuff by ramping up the power of that faction.

 

You're right - but that would be a conscious marketing choice by FFG. FFG could choose to do the same thing by introducing ever more powerful ships within the existing factions at point costs lower than their game value. So, that question does not necessarily pertain to the third faction issue.

 

Look at any number of existing games and ask yourself which would be harder to balance, a new unit in an existing faction or a completely new faction? This could apply to any polarized game, like RPGs or RTSs.

 

I will have to confess that I'm not as well versed as you are in these other games. Can you give me examples where the imbalance happened for number-of-factions reasons, rather than power-creep-in-pursuit-of-quick-profits reasons?

 

Gecko: you're assuming that same-faction interactions are the only ones that matter. Yes, every new ship with an Astromech slot deserves careful consideration from the design team. Every new ship must also be weighed against every opposing ship as well, so the introduction of a third faction means that a) it must be internally balanced against itself, b) it must be balanced against both other factions, and c) those other factions must also be balanced against the new one. That is a lot of potential interactions to be considered at one time, and FFG doesn't have the benefit of fixing them with a patch after the fact.

 

This is theoretically plausible, sure. But, then, is the point-pricing mechanism not perfectly fungible? If something is highly effective, why would a higher point price not fix the problem?

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

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