Look at maneuver dial during Activation phase?

[ScottieATF 2,867]

Do I really need to point out that looking at and revealing your dial to your opponent aren't the same thing? The straws people grasp at.

Edited July 14, 2014 by ScottieATF

[Plainsman 1,002]

 

Edit: Now that I read it again I guess it is the part about fully resolving each ships activation that you mainly think about in the first paragraph and wether the activation of a ship would be over if you look at the next dial.

That's the point we are trying to make, exactly!

[Buhallin 4,563]

So looking at my dial counts as revealing it?  But I can look at it all I want during the Planning Phase?  Advanced Sensors likes this idea.

 

"OK, my Phantom's dial is set.  I'm going to look at it now, which counts as revealing it, which triggers Advanced Sensors, so I'll barrel roll.  I put it back down, now I'm going to look at it again, so it counts as revealing it, I think I'll focus this time..."

 

I don't think anyone would actually argue for that...  so does that mean that if I look at my dial during Activation is counts as revealing it, but if I look at it during Planing, it doesn't count as revealing it?  That doesn't seem very convincing.

[MrHello 67]

Let's look at the aggregate of all these "rules" cited together...

 

The statement on page 6 "A player may look at his own face-down maneuver dials at any time, but he cannot look at his opponent's facedown dials.",is in the planning phase.  Logically, if that statement only applies during the planning phase, that means the statement about opponents dials has to mean that your opponent can look at your dials in the activation phase.  It has also been argued that a person peeking at a dial in the activation phase means that dial is considered revealed/face-up, which means that your opponent looking at your dial during activation (which is now allowed), reveals that dial, and he can force your ships to activate in the order he determines by looking at your dials before you choose the order to activate them.  Further, the statement in the FAQ that was cited means that before you have the opportunity to move your ship, your opponent can peek at another dial, revealing that dial, cancelling your ability to move, and take actions, and force you to stay right where you are.  If at any time he likes the layout of the board, and doesn't want anything to move, he can skip everybody's movement and action phase by just peeking at the highest PS ships you have, which reveals that maneuver and that is the only ship that will have an opportunity to move and action up unless he has a higher PS ship.  I would definitely exploit that if you used that set of arguments against me, and neither of us would have much fun.  Even without your interpretation of peeking=faceup, opponents looking at your dials during the activation phase would drive people away from the game including me.

 

The only rule that matters at all in this is whether the statement at the start of the third paragraph, on page 6 applies to just the planning phase, or if it applies to the entire round.  If it means at any time in the game round, it can literally be any time except where a card effect or FAQ entry prevents it, such as a card saying "immediately perform a Barrel Roll", then the card  statement "immediately", overrules the rules entry "at any time".  If on the other hand, it only applies during the planning phase, it breaks the game in one way or another.

[Plainsman 1,002]

L

 

The only rule that matters at all in this is whether the statement at the start of the third paragraph, on page 6 applies to just the planning phase, or if it applies to the entire round.  If it means at any time in the game round, it can literally be any time except where a card effect or FAQ entry prevents it, such as a card saying "immediately perform a Barrel Roll", then the card  statement "immediately", overrules the rules entry "at any time".  If on the other hand, it only applies during the planning phase, it breaks the game in one way or another.

That's the point I was trying to make! It will have a big effect either way in the overall rules! Hence, we need an official ruling on the intent!

[Plainsman 1,002]

It appears many of us have a question in on this to FFG, so how long does it typically take them to get a clarification posted?

[VanorDM 11,599]

It will have a big effect either way in the overall rules!

No not really. I think most of us already play it that you can look at your dials anytime you want, which is IMO the only logical way to read the rule. So for us it will have zero effect on the game.

Also given the very dubious nature of the 'you can only do it in the planing phase' I don't see any need for FFG to clarify what is already a very clear rule.

I believe someone has already emailed FFG about this, which means soon we should have an official answer to this. But again I don't think that needed, because so far there has been nothing offered on the planing only side that provides even a most basic argument for that interpretation.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

L

 

The only rule that matters at all in this is whether the statement at the start of the third paragraph, on page 6 applies to just the planning phase, or if it applies to the entire round.  If it means at any time in the game round, it can literally be any time except where a card effect or FAQ entry prevents it, such as a card saying "immediately perform a Barrel Roll", then the card  statement "immediately", overrules the rules entry "at any time".  If on the other hand, it only applies during the planning phase, it breaks the game in one way or another.

That's the point I was trying to make! It will have a big effect either way in the overall rules! Hence, we need an official ruling on the intent!

 

The potential impact of a reading should not be the determining factor in whether or not we need an official ruling.

 

If I want to argue that blanks count as crits, that would have a pretty big impact on the overall rules.  Does that need an official ruling because of that impact?  No.

 

We've shown repeatedly that there's nothing to support what you're trying to say, it's actively contradicted by the overall methodology used in the rest of the rules, and your interpretation is itself self-contradictory.  You continue to ignore all of that, saying we need a ruling because you think blanks count as crits.

 

No.  We really, truly don't need a ruling to clarify anything.

[VanorDM 11,599]

so how long does it typically take them to get a clarification posted?

Sometimes a hour or, sometimes a few days. Depends on how busy Frank is I guess. He may also prioritize based on how hard/easy the question is to answer.

He may answer easy ones as soon as he see's them, or may put them off so he can figure out the tricky ones. But that's just guessing on my part.

[Plainsman 1,002]

It will have a big effect either way in the overall rules!

No not really. I think most of us already play it that you can look at your dials anytime you want, which is IMO the only logical way to read the rule. So for us it will have zero effect on the game.Also given the very dubious nature of the 'you can only do it in the planing phase' I don't see any need for FFG to clarify what is already a very clear rule.I believe someone has already emailed FFG about this, which means soon we should have an official answer to this. But again I don't think that needed, because so far there has been nothing offered on the planing only side that provides even a most basic argument for that interpretation.

Perhaps I should rephrase this to, " it will have a big effect in the game for an individual having to switch the way they have been playing previously!"

If you are an individual playing it where you can look at your dials, you have probably never placed a ship in the way of another one on accident, because you looked at the dial and avoided it!

If you play, no look, then you have screwed up moves such as barrel rolling the wrong way and run into your own ship, messing up your whole turn! This makes the game more challenging and more fun, btw!

Now reverse those options for the players! It opens up a whole new world because many players will have to change how they've been playing, so an official clarification is important.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Plainsman

[Buhallin 4,563]

So just to make sure I'm clear here before I waste any more time: We're officially at the point where the entire rules argument from the other side has come down to "It will be a big change in how I play and I'm not going to make that change unless FFG says so", right?

 

Because we've thoroughly disproven the "It only applies during the Planning Phase" argument.  At which point we morphed to the "Looking = revealing" argument, that I took a good (and ignored) shot at disproving as well.  It really does seem like the only thing left is simple refusal to acknowledge anything unless FFG tells you directly.

 

Which is fine, for all that, but if that's where we are it would be nice to know so we can stop wasting everyone's time here.

[Krynn007 2,445]

All I can say after reading this is I'm glad I don't play at the stores where a to would agree with only allowed to check during the planning phase. Sounds like a TO who maybe shouldn't be running events imo.

They obviously don't know the rules so the game there must be crazy.

Seems like some places they make up rules as they go.

Kind of like the government.

Ok then answer this.

It says you can look at your dial any time

So in your interruption that's any time during the planning phase.

So why wouldn't it just say that?

It doesn't. It just says players may look at it at any time.

Your argument is because it mentions it under the planning phase.

So you mean to tell me yout expect it to keep repeating through every step. Oh you may look at your dial during this phase.

I'm pretty sure ffg assumed most players were competent enough to understand the meaning. You may look at your dial any time.

The reason why it only mentions it during the planning phase step is because that is the section that covers dials.

Jesus, it's not rocket science. I

Seems to me players like to try to bend the rules in their favor.

Sorry guys but if I was playing against you, your the ones who are cheating.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Krynn007

[VanorDM 11,599]

We're officially at the point where the entire rules argument from the other side has come down to "It will be a big change in how I play and I'm not going to make that change unless FFG says so", right?

It does seem that way. I can sorta understand their point, kinda...

If I were playing it like they were, switching over to what is IMO the correct reading of the rules would mean a fairly big change in how the game is played.

Imagine that you're flying a Holwswarm, and can't check the dial on each Tie Fighter to make sure they're all correct and figure out which one you want to activate first. Have to just remember what they're all doing. That would create a fairly different dynamic in the game...

One which I think the designers were trying to avoid, which is why we can look at the dials at any time.

IMO the issue with the argument the other side is making, is that they can't really offer any sort of precedence or rule to back up that interpretation. We have lots of examples of other rules that apply no matter what part of the book they're introduced to. In fact if it worked like they said it does, then the whole game would quite honestly fall apart, because then no rule would apply other then in the phase it's listed in.

If they could offer any evidence at all that you can only look at a dial during the planning phase, then perhaps I'd consider it worth bothering Frank with... But so far they haven't.

So far all we've seen from them is the logically poor reasoning of "it come from this part of the rules" the very silly "looking at a dial is the same as revealing it" and the "it means a big change in how some people play the game." None of which are even close to being compelling evidence to support their interpretation.

Edited July 14, 2014 by VanorDM

[MrHello 67]

 

 

It will have a big effect either way in the overall rules!

No not really. I think most of us already play it that you can look at your dials anytime you want, which is IMO the only logical way to read the rule. So for us it will have zero effect on the game.Also given the very dubious nature of the 'you can only do it in the planing phase' I don't see any need for FFG to clarify what is already a very clear rule.I believe someone has already emailed FFG about this, which means soon we should have an official answer to this. But again I don't think that needed, because so far there has been nothing offered on the planing only side that provides even a most basic argument for that interpretation.

Perhaps I should rephrase this to, " it will have a big effect in the game for an individual having to switch the way they have been playing previously!"

If you are an individual playing it where you can look at your dials, you have probably never placed a ship in the way of another one on accident, because you looked at the dial and avoided it!

If you play, no look, then you have screwed up moves such as barrel rolling the wrong way and run into your own ship, messing up your whole turn! This makes the game more challenging and more fun, btw!

Now reverse those options for the players! It opens up a whole new world because many players will have to change how they've been playing, so an official clarification is important.

 

 

The paragraph of mine you quoted is exactly why you don't need an official ruling.  As Buhallin pointed out a couple pages ago, If you can't look at your dials in activation, then your opponent CAN look at your dials during activation.  You can't possibly have one without the other, otherwise you're asking for a very selective application of the planning phase only interpretation.  If that's the case, and I can in fact look at your dial during the activation phase, what is the point of the crew card intelligence agent?  

 

Edited and emphasized for clarification,

Edited July 14, 2014 by MrHello

[DarthJalapeno 32]

Has anyone sent this in for clarification or are we just assuming someone has?

I passed the question to ffg yesterday. No response yet.

Edited July 14, 2014 by DarthJalapeno

[DarthJalapeno 32]

And we got ourselves an answer:

 

*barrel drum roll*

 

In response to your rules question:

 

Rule Question:

Hi

 

Is it allowed for a player too look at his facedown maneuver dials at any time, during any phase?

 

For example, may I look at one of my shipd maneuver dials when deciding if I should do a barrel roll with my active ship to get out of the way.

 

Or look at my ships dials during the activation phase to choose the order of movement?

 

Rule Answer:

You may look at your own maneuver dials at any time during the Planning or Activation phases. After the Planning phase, a player must inform his opponent if he is going to look at but not reveal his dial as manipulating dials will not be tolerated.

 

Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

 

Case closed.

Edited July 14, 2014 by DarthJalapeno

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

so how long does it typically take them to get a clarification posted?

Sometimes a hour or, sometimes a few days.

Sometimes never. I have sent 2 questions off to them and have not gotten a response on either. The first was a couple weeks ago, the other was several months ago.

[Plainsman 1,002]

And we got ourselves an answer:

 

*barrel drum roll*

 

In response to your rules question:

 

Rule Question:

Hi

 

Is it allowed for a player too look at his facedown maneuver dials at any time, during any phase?

 

For example, may I look at one of my shipd maneuver dials when deciding if I should do a barrel roll with my active ship to get out of the way.

 

Or look at my ships dials during the activation phase to choose the order of movement?

 

Rule Answer:

You may look at your own maneuver dials at any time during the Planning or Activation phases. After the Planning phase, a player must inform his opponent if he is going to look at but not reveal his dial as manipulating dials will not be tolerated.

 

Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

 

Case closed.

Thank you for the clarification, Frank!

That will make things a LOT different in my area and really shake it up! Flying will actually be EASIER!

[DarthJalapeno 32]

 

 

so how long does it typically take them to get a clarification posted?

Sometimes a hour or, sometimes a few days.

Sometimes never. I have sent 2 questions off to them and have not gotten a response on either. The first was a couple weeks ago, the other was several months ago.

 

 

Check your junk mail, that's where Frank's message turned up for me.

[Krynn007 2,445]

And we got ourselves an answer:

 

*barrel drum roll*

 

In response to your rules question:

 Rule Question:Hi

 Is it allowed for a player too look at his facedown maneuver dials at any time, during any phase?

 For example, may I look at one of my shipd maneuver dials when deciding if I should do a barrel roll with my active ship to get out of the way.

 Or look at my ships dials during the activation phase to choose the order of movement?

 Rule Answer:

You may look at your own maneuver dials at any time during the Planning or Activation phases. After the Planning phase, a player must inform his opponent if he is going to look at but not reveal his dial as manipulating dials will not be tolerated.

 

Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

 

Case closed.

Thank you for the clarification, Frank!

That will make things a LOT different in my area and really shake it up! Flying will actually be EASIER!

It's kind of sad that we have to waste their time to ask a question that doesn't need asking.

[DarthJalapeno 32]

 

 

And we got ourselves an answer:

 

*barrel drum roll*

 

In response to your rules question:

 Rule Question:Hi

 Is it allowed for a player too look at his facedown maneuver dials at any time, during any phase?

 For example, may I look at one of my shipd maneuver dials when deciding if I should do a barrel roll with my active ship to get out of the way.

 Or look at my ships dials during the activation phase to choose the order of movement?

 Rule Answer:

You may look at your own maneuver dials at any time during the Planning or Activation phases. After the Planning phase, a player must inform his opponent if he is going to look at but not reveal his dial as manipulating dials will not be tolerated.

 

Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

 

Case closed.

Thank you for the clarification, Frank!

That will make things a LOT different in my area and really shake it up! Flying will actually be EASIER!

It's kind of sad that we have to waste their time to ask a question that doesn't need asking.

 

 

If it didn't need to be asked, this topic wouldn't be five pages long.

[DreadStar 1,124]

 

Three words... 'AT ANY TIME'

DURING THE PLANNING PHASE!

 

Pardon me since i am a newbye, but the rule doesn't say that. You added that. It really says rule as written any time. And any time, is any time. Sorry for the repetition but it is a common mistake (and nothing to be ashamed off) to read the rules and come with your own interpretation instead of just... well reading the rule and apply it.

Edited July 14, 2014 by DreadStar

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

If it didn't need to be asked, this topic wouldn't be five pages long.

 

The length of this discussion has nothing to do with the need for it to be asked.

 

Or, at the very least, the "need to be asked" had nothing to do with the complexity of the actual question.

[VanorDM 11,599]

If it didn't need to be asked, this topic wouldn't be five pages long.

That's not really true.

If you have 1 or 2 people who insist on keeping a thread going they can do that for quite some time. Because some of us, have issues with letting it go when someone doesn't agree with us.

Just a single post by someone can often mean 10-15 more posts from other people.

One of the longer threads we had here was answered on the first page, and everyone agreed, but it went on for 10 more pages because we were having a discussion about a theoretical issue that came up because of the question.

That said. It wouldn't of taken Frank long to answer that question so it's not like we were delaying Wave 6 by a week by asking.

[DarthJalapeno 32]

 

If it didn't need to be asked, this topic wouldn't be five pages long.

That's not really true.

If you have 1 or 2 people who insist on keeping a thread going they can do that for quite some time. Because some of us, have issues with letting it go when someone doesn't agree with us.

Just a single post by someone can often mean 10-15 more posts from other people.

One of the longer threads we had here was answered on the first page, and everyone agreed, but it went on for 10 more pages because we were having a discussion about a theoretical issue that came up because of the question.

That said. It wouldn't of taken Frank long to answer that question so it's not like we were delaying Wave 6 by a week by asking.

 

 

There were more than 1-2 people who were not certain of the ruling.

Anyway the question has been answered.

 

Thanks everyone for helping out!