Look at maneuver dial during Activation phase?

[Parravon 5,217]

Can someone point out in the rulebook where it says I CAN'T look at my dials?

[Buhallin 4,563]

Can someone point out in the rulebook where it says I CAN'T look at my dials?

Let's not go down this road.  "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid rules argument.

[Parravon 5,217]

I'm firmly in the "at any time" camp, but I was wondering why some believe in this "only in the planning phase" restriction. For there to be any basis in that argument, there must be something that says I can't somewhere else in the rules that I haven't been able to find.

[KineticOperator 2,534]

I'm firmly in the "at any time" camp, but I was wondering why some believe in this "only in the planning phase" restriction. For there to be any basis in that argument, there must be something that says I can't somewhere else in the rules that I haven't been able to find.

 

True.  While "it doesn't say I can't" is not a solid argument by itself, when there is a blanket statement giving you permission to perform an action the lack of a restrictive statement is significant.

[StephenEsven 632]

I don't dispute all the rules quoted that you dug up.

My agument for during the planning phase is not just vecayse it is in that section.

My argumebt is that the meaning of the sentence changes when read oyr of context.

If you read the whole paragraph every other sentence is about choosing maneuvers. Which is taking place at a particular phase.

[Buhallin 4,563]

My argumebt is that the meaning of the sentence changes when read oyr of context.

 

If you read the whole paragraph every other sentence is about choosing maneuvers. Which is taking place at a particular phase.

Just like the normal action is taking place in a particular phase.

 

You say the meaning changes based on the context - fine, that's pretty much a given.  But what is the context?  Is it something that relates solely to choosing maneuvers?  Or is it something that can apply to the entire game as a constant?

 

I understand what you think the context is...  but you have nothing to support that.  The context you're trying to declare - that it only applies in the phase the rule appears in - does not exist in X-wing.  You have no evidence that it exists in X-wing.  You have yet to provide a single statement supporting that it exists in X-wing.  You still have not provided a single example based on that context, or refuted any of the many, MANY examples provided to show that your context does not exist.

 

Yes, context is important...  but you're actually the one in the wrong context here.

[Skindog 25]

I love how well you are putting across your points buhallin, every post is well thought out & well presented, you've provided indesputible evidence yet the people who disagree with you have provided "well my friends do it this way" their argument is so weak I can't believe they're still arguing it!

[Rinehart 684]

So, I am on the side of this that believes we can look whenever we want, but I'm oddly going to make a point counter to that. I'm only doing this because I see their argument, and I don't think it should be simply dismissed without FFG clarification.

Everyone is obsessed with what is written in the Planning Phase section. But what gives me pause is what's written in the Activation phase. The first step is:

reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup.

It doesn't say to reveal your dial to your opponent directly, it just says flipping it faceup. So, if I peek at it, am I flipping it faceup? Sure I am. So, if I've revealed a dial to myself, have I then activated that ship? Now, it does say that I must do this in ascending PS order, but what if I have multiple PS2 ships and I peek at one before I want to movie, am I forced to continue to activated that ship? If that's the case, then there are consequences to looking at your dial and that is counter to the freely and at any time interpretation.

I think that the activation rules could support the "can't look at your dials whenever" argument. I still don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be correct. We shouldn't be calling each other stupid or be dismissive of each other's arguments, we should be asking and hoping for clarification from FFG on the rules.

[Plainsman 1,002]

, I am on the side of this that believes we can look whenever we want, but I'm oddly going to make a point counter to that. I'm only doing this because I see their argument, and I don't think it should be simply dismissed without FFG clarification.

Everyone is obsessed with what is written in the Planning Phase section. But what gives me pause is what's written in the Activation phase. The first step is:

reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup.

It doesn't say to reveal your dial to your opponent directly, it just says flipping it faceup. So, if I peek at it, am I flipping it faceup? Sure I am. So, if I've revealed a dial to myself, have I then activated that ship? Now, it does say that I must do this in ascending PS order, but what if I have multiple PS2 ships and I peek at one before I want to movie, am I forced to continue to activated that ship? If that's the case, then there are consequences to looking at your dial and that is counter to the freely and at any time interpretation.

I think that the activation rules could support the "can't look at your dials whenever" argument. I still don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be correct. We shouldn't be calling each other stupid or be dismissive of each other's arguments, we should be asking and hoping for clarification from FFG on the rules.

Exactly!

This is the point we have been trying to make, yet unsuccessfully.

Once the dial is flipped, it has been revealed and now everybody gets to see the maneuver and that ship is activated.

Thank you for putting the idea into words that should be clear to everyone, Rinehart!

[Rinehart 684]

 

, I am on the side of this that believes we can look whenever we want, but I'm oddly going to make a point counter to that. I'm only doing this because I see their argument, and I don't think it should be simply dismissed without FFG clarification.

Everyone is obsessed with what is written in the Planning Phase section. But what gives me pause is what's written in the Activation phase. The first step is:

reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup.

It doesn't say to reveal your dial to your opponent directly, it just says flipping it faceup. So, if I peek at it, am I flipping it faceup? Sure I am. So, if I've revealed a dial to myself, have I then activated that ship? Now, it does say that I must do this in ascending PS order, but what if I have multiple PS2 ships and I peek at one before I want to movie, am I forced to continue to activated that ship? If that's the case, then there are consequences to looking at your dial and that is counter to the freely and at any time interpretation.

I think that the activation rules could support the "can't look at your dials whenever" argument. I still don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be correct. We shouldn't be calling each other stupid or be dismissive of each other's arguments, we should be asking and hoping for clarification from FFG on the rules.

Exactly!

This is the point we have been trying to make, yet unsuccessfully.

Once the dial is flipped, it has been revealed and now everybody gets to see the maneuver and that ship is activated.

Thank you for putting the idea into words that should be clear to everyone, Rinehart!

 

 

No Problem Plainsman but I'm not sure that it "should be clear to everyone".  There are two valid interpretations at play here.  Until FFG chimes in, nothing will change.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Rinehart

[Rinehart 684]

 

, I am on the side of this that believes we can look whenever we want, but I'm oddly going to make a point counter to that. I'm only doing this because I see their argument, and I don't think it should be simply dismissed without FFG clarification.

Everyone is obsessed with what is written in the Planning Phase section. But what gives me pause is what's written in the Activation phase. The first step is:

reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup.

It doesn't say to reveal your dial to your opponent directly, it just says flipping it faceup. So, if I peek at it, am I flipping it faceup? Sure I am. So, if I've revealed a dial to myself, have I then activated that ship? Now, it does say that I must do this in ascending PS order, but what if I have multiple PS2 ships and I peek at one before I want to movie, am I forced to continue to activated that ship? If that's the case, then there are consequences to looking at your dial and that is counter to the freely and at any time interpretation.

I think that the activation rules could support the "can't look at your dials whenever" argument. I still don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be correct. We shouldn't be calling each other stupid or be dismissive of each other's arguments, we should be asking and hoping for clarification from FFG on the rules.

Exactly!

This is the point we have been trying to make, yet unsuccessfully.

Once the dial is flipped, it has been revealed and now everybody gets to see the maneuver and that ship is activated.

Thank you for putting the idea into words that should be clear to everyone, Rinehart!

 

 

 

The formatting got all mucked up in my reply.

 

Sure thing Plainsman, but I'm not sure that it "should be clear to everyone".  There are two valid interpretations, and because of that it shouldn't be clear to everyone.  You must see the merits of the counter to your argument, no one here has argued anything ridiculous.  Until FFG chimes in, nothing will change.

[Sideslip 457]

 

, I am on the side of this that believes we can look whenever we want, but I'm oddly going to make a point counter to that. I'm only doing this because I see their argument, and I don't think it should be simply dismissed without FFG clarification.

Everyone is obsessed with what is written in the Planning Phase section. But what gives me pause is what's written in the Activation phase. The first step is:

reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup.

It doesn't say to reveal your dial to your opponent directly, it just says flipping it faceup. So, if I peek at it, am I flipping it faceup? Sure I am. So, if I've revealed a dial to myself, have I then activated that ship? Now, it does say that I must do this in ascending PS order, but what if I have multiple PS2 ships and I peek at one before I want to movie, am I forced to continue to activated that ship? If that's the case, then there are consequences to looking at your dial and that is counter to the freely and at any time interpretation.

I think that the activation rules could support the "can't look at your dials whenever" argument. I still don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be correct. We shouldn't be calling each other stupid or be dismissive of each other's arguments, we should be asking and hoping for clarification from FFG on the rules.

Exactly!

This is the point we have been trying to make, yet unsuccessfully.

Once the dial is flipped, it has been revealed and now everybody gets to see the maneuver and that ship is activated.

Thank you for putting the idea into words that should be clear to everyone, Rinehart!

 

 

When you are dealt a hand in poker, do you flip the cards face up? No, you look at them covertly. You are changing the orientation of the cards, but you are not "flipping them face-up" until you reveal your hand.

 

Looking at a dial "at any time" is secret; this is clear enough. Flipping a dial face-up is manifestly public. You cannot conflate the two.

[Plainsman 1,002]

Rinehart put the whole argument into clarity by pointing out the first step of the Activation Phase.

"1. reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup."

If we read the beginning of the Activation Phase carefully,

"During this phase, each ship is activated one at a

time. Starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill, resolve the following steps in order:"

This means we have to flip the dials in ascending order by inititiative, to activate each ship. If a dial is flipped for any other reason, the ship is activated out of order and isn't following the Activation Phase rules. Hence, why some of us were pointing out the fact the other statement takes place in the Planning Phase. "At any time" has been negated by the Activation Phase rules.

I hope this helps clarify things some more.

[Sideslip 457]

I feel like I am arguing with my cubicle wall.

[Goffik 50]

Rinehart put the whole argument into clarity by pointing out the first step of the Activation Phase.

"1. reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup."

If we read the beginning of the Activation Phase carefully,

"During this phase, each ship is activated one at a

time. Starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill, resolve the following steps in order:"

This means we have to flip the dials in ascending order by inititiative, to activate each ship. If a dial is flipped for any other reason, the ship is activated out of order and isn't following the Activation Phase rules. Hence, why some of us were pointing out the fact the other statement takes place in the Planning Phase. "At any time" has been negated by the Activation Phase rules.

I hope this helps clarify things some more.

I would like to know how you define faceup.

[Rinehart 684]

Rinehart put the whole argument into clarity by pointing out the first step of the Activation Phase.

"1. reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup."

If we read the beginning of the Activation Phase carefully,

"During this phase, each ship is activated one at a

time. Starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill, resolve the following steps in order:"

This means we have to flip the dials in ascending order by inititiative, to activate each ship. If a dial is flipped for any other reason, the ship is activated out of order and isn't following the Activation Phase rules. Hence, why some of us were pointing out the fact the other statement takes place in the Planning Phase. "At any time" has been negated by the Activation Phase rules.

I hope this helps clarify things some more.

I would like to know how you define faceup.

I agree, faceup could mean a few different things. I think it means to flip the dial faceup on the table for all to see, but I could be wrong.

[Goffik 50]

 

 

Rinehart put the whole argument into clarity by pointing out the first step of the Activation Phase.

"1. reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup."

If we read the beginning of the Activation Phase carefully,

"During this phase, each ship is activated one at a

time. Starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill, resolve the following steps in order:"

This means we have to flip the dials in ascending order by inititiative, to activate each ship. If a dial is flipped for any other reason, the ship is activated out of order and isn't following the Activation Phase rules. Hence, why some of us were pointing out the fact the other statement takes place in the Planning Phase. "At any time" has been negated by the Activation Phase rules.

I hope this helps clarify things some more.

I would like to know how you define faceup.

I agree, faceup could mean a few different things. I think it means to flip the dial faceup on the table for all to see, but I could be wrong.

 

Wouldn't that mean that as long as it is still not shown to your opponent it can't be considered flipped faceup?

 

I'd like to add that I see some good reason for it to be ruled not being allowed to look at your dials during activation phase, mainly to avoid anyone suspecting the opponent is fiddling with his maneuvers while taking a peek. The way I read the rule however, it's most likely allowed to check your dials even after planning phase.

[Plainsman 1,002]

There are two ways of seeing this, hence, we need to know FFG's intent and get their clarification.

Scenario question:

A player moves his Interceptor, then is thinking about doing a barrel roll, but doesn't remember the next ship's move and it may get in that one' sway. Have some of you been playing it, that the player can look at that ship's dial before performing the barrel roll?

In our interpretation of the activation phase, looking at that dial would end the Interceptor's Activation Phase and it would lose it's action!

Those two differences in play can change the entire game!

[Plainsman 1,002]

Rinehart put the whole argument into clarity by pointing out the first step of the Activation Phase.

"1. reveal Dial: Reveal the active ship’s maneuver dial by flipping it faceup."

If we read the beginning of the Activation Phase carefully,

"During this phase, each ship is activated one at a

time. Starting with the ship with the lowest pilot skill, resolve the following steps in order:"

This means we have to flip the dials in ascending order by inititiative, to activate each ship. If a dial is flipped for any other reason, the ship is activated out of order and isn't following the Activation Phase rules. Hence, why some of us were pointing out the fact the other statement takes place in the Planning Phase. "At any time" has been negated by the Activation Phase rules.

I hope this helps clarify things some more.

I would like to know how you define faceup.

I agree, faceup could mean a few different things. I think it means to flip the dial faceup on the table for all to see, but I could be wrong.

Wouldn't that mean that as long as it is still not shown to your opponent it can't be considered flipped faceup?

I'd like to add that I see some good reason for it to be ruled not being allowed to look at your dials during activation phase, mainly to avoid anyone suspecting the opponent is fiddling with his maneuvers while taking a peek. The way I read the rule however, it's most likely allowed to check your dials even after planning phase.

Not looking prevents the manipulation as you've said and it adds that "unknown" aspect when you forget a pilots move, which adds to the fun, challenge and uniqueness to the game. It really is a thinking game and allowing players to look at dials after the Planning Phase would take a lot of that away!

Edited July 14, 2014 by Plainsman

[Plainsman 1,002]

Some may find this from the FAQ enlightening as well!

"At competitive and premier events, it is critical to resolve maneuvers, perform actions, and measure range in a strict and defined sequence.

Players must fully resolve each ship’s activation before moving on to the next ship—this includes fully executing that ship’s maneuver (resolving any collisions or card effects) and performing all of that ship’s actions. Each ship in a squad must activate, move, and perform its action individually, even if a player is moving several ships of the same pilot skill and selecting the same maneuvers or actions."

And this:

"Missed opportunities

Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of a game. At competitive and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:

• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action."

Edited July 14, 2014 by Plainsman

[Sideslip 457]

Some may find this from the FAQ enlightening as well!

"At competitive and premier events, it is critical to resolve maneuvers, perform actions, and measure range in a strict and defined sequence.

Players must fully resolve each ship’s activation before moving on to the next ship—this includes fully executing that ship’s maneuver (resolving any collisions or card effects) and performing all of that ship’s actions. Each ship in a squad must activate, move, and perform its action individually, even if a player is moving several ships of the same pilot skill and selecting the same maneuvers or actions."

And this:

"Missed opportunities

Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of a game. At competitive and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:

• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action."

 

None of these points address looking at a dial, a deed which does not interrupt this flow.

[Plainsman 1,002]

Revealing the dial activates a ship, so it is very important to the question of determining if looking at a dial is legal or not.

Changing the meaning of one little rule can have a ripple effect that turns into a tsunami, and this is one of those cases.

[Sergovan 1,440]

Has anyone sent this in for clarification or are we just assuming someone has?

 

 

Some may find this from the FAQ enlightening as well!

"At competitive and premier events, it is critical to resolve maneuvers, perform actions, and measure range in a strict and defined sequence.
Players must fully resolve each ship’s activation before moving on to the next ship—this includes fully executing that ship’s maneuver (resolving any collisions or card effects) and performing all of that ship’s actions. Each ship in a squad must activate, move, and perform its action individually, even if a player is moving several ships of the same pilot skill and selecting the same maneuvers or actions."

And this:

"Missed opportunities
Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of a game. At competitive and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:
• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action."

What this means is that you can't interupt  a ships activation phase or you risk losing out on completing it.

 

When a player looks at a dial it is usualy in picking which ship in the same PS should be moved, which would be before activating an actual ship. If a player stopped midway in activating his ship, to look at another ships dial, I would warn them with the first dial picked up, that they must complete the one ships activation first or risk losing out on the action step for that ship. In this aspect you are correct.

 

What we have been aruing is before activating a  ship you can look at the dial of every one of you ships to plan out how your activation would go.

 

But once a ship is activated, you can't interupt that process by looking at another dial.( "at any time" would conflict with this). This has strayed off the OP of this thread but is related to it.

 

I'll send in my own request on this later on today.

[Goffik 50]

Some may find this from the FAQ enlightening as well!

"At competitive and premier events, it is critical to resolve maneuvers, perform actions, and measure range in a strict and defined sequence.

Players must fully resolve each ship’s activation before moving on to the next ship—this includes fully executing that ship’s maneuver (resolving any collisions or card effects) and performing all of that ship’s actions. Each ship in a squad must activate, move, and perform its action individually, even if a player is moving several ships of the same pilot skill and selecting the same maneuvers or actions."

And this:

"Missed opportunities

Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of a game. At competitive and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:

• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action."

Nothing in there really answers anything regarding the rule in question though.

First part is more about things like revealing all dials with same PS and moving them all (for example a swarm) while saying they all take a focus action.

For Missed opportunities it still comes down to defining when a dial is considered revealed.

 

Edit: Now that I read it again I guess it is the part about fully resolving each ships activation that you mainly think about in the first paragraph and wether the activation of a ship would be over if you look at the next dial.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Goffik

[VanorDM 11,599]

Revealing the dial activates a ship, so it is very important to the question of determining if looking at a dial is legal or not.

Of course it's legal, because the rules clearly state you can look at the dial at any time.

No one on the 'you can't look at them' has offered even a single scrap of evidence or precedence that counters what Buhallin has said. All the rules FAQ entries and everything else in this game clearly point to a rule being in effect for the whole game, not a single phase of the game.

Your options may be limited, but when a rule says "at any time" it means just that.