Look at maneuver dial during Activation phase?

[Vallador 2]

 

I think the point of all this is that there are two reasonable interpretations. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.  

 

There is one reasonable interpretation, it is patently clear, and requires no further explanation by FFG.

 

At.  Any.  Time.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

I think the point of all this is that there are two reasonable interpretations.

Not really. There is one reasonable interpretation and two people who don't know how to read English.

Three words... 'AT ANY TIME'

DURING THE PLANNING PHASE!

As was said, that phrase is not in the rulebook, which I think pretty well proves the point.

Your certainly free to email them or ask them directly at a con. If you ask them directly, you'll get a funny look.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Forgottenlore

[StephenEsven 632]

Three words... 'AT ANY TIME'

DURING THE PLANNING PHASE!

These words are not in the rule book. Do not add words to the rule book.

I invite you to read the text at the top of page 6. Planning Phase. I just worded it to form a proper english sentence. Edited July 12, 2014 by StephenEsven

[OuterRimJob 38]

Well... at least we all can agree that this dude StephenEsven is a scruffy nerf herder.

[StephenEsven 632]

Well thanks for the compliment.

I am simply of a different opinion than you on how to read the rule.

If we ever get a FAQ on the subject we will see who has the right interpretation.

I by no means claim to be infallible. But so far I have seen no atguments posted here that has made me realize I was reading it wrong. And trust me, you can find another thread here where I was wrong. It took me a while ro be convinced, but in the end I did change my view on the rule. That just haven't happened here.

And I haven't convinced you either. I just happen to believe that being allowed to look at your dials after planning is over is not the intended way to play, and I can see that it can lead to problems during games at a competetive level as you might be accused of trying to change your dial once Activation has begun.

[OuterRimJob 38]

Z

[Johdo 343]

Taken directly from the rule book...

 

"A player may look at his own facedown maneuver dials at any time, but he cannot look at his opponent’s facedown dials. A player controlling more than one ship may assign maneuvers to his ships in any order."  

 

Intelligence Agent obviously changes this somewhat...

 

At no point in that entire section did i read anything about looking at the facedown manuever dial at any time...but only within the confines of that phase.  

 

 

Planning Phase - ok, i planned my manuever (sets it down)

Activation Phase - ok, i flip my manuever up and move ship.  

Why can't i look at another dial to make sure i'm not going to bump my own ship?  You ever played a 7 TIE Swarm?  Once the furball ensues, i can't be expected to remember 7 different movements for those 7 ships.  Looking here or there at those dials before that ship has been Activated is a key component of gameplay.

[StephenEsven 632]

Yes I have played a TIE Swarm. And all the points you make is exactly why I think uou can't look. You plan in the planning phase and execute the plan in the Activation phase. Sometimes your plan fails because you accidentally chose thw wrong bearing or you boosted or barrel rolled a ship so it now blocks your move.

Or it might be an enemy ship you didn't anticipate to be wheee it now is. Part of madtering this game is to be able to adapt your plan as the battle unfolds.

Of cause all of this only matters when you have multiple ships activating at the same PS. Advanced Sensors in this situation would benefit a lot if you were allowed to look at your dial before choosing your action.

I haven't attended any tournaments. But I am curious. Has anybody ever witnessed pkayers checking their dials at events like this? I do realize that if the answer us no, that is not a solid argument for my way of interpreting the rule. I am just curious as to if this somerimes happens.

[Buhallin 4,563]

The sentence saying you can look at your dials is, literally, the same one that says you can't look at your opponent's dials. If it only applies during the planning phase, does that mean I can look at my opponent's dials once the activation phase starts? After all, if the rule only applies during the planning phase, the ENTIRE rule should apply only during the planning phase.

And in more Han a yeah and a half playing tournaments, including everything short of Worlds, I've never seen anyone have a problem with people reviewing their dials.

Edit: more examples... The no repeat actions rule is in the activation phase section... Can Turr use his ability to take a second barrel roll, or Airen Cracken to let someone double up All the actions are likewise in that phase section, does a barrel roll do nothing at all outside the phase because they're defined for that step? The components for a maneuver - speed, bearing, difficulty - are defined in the planing phase. Do those rules have no application outside the planning phase?

Edited July 13, 2014 by Buhallin

[Skindog 25]

The sentence saying you can look at your dials is, literally, the same one that says you can't look at your opponent's dials. If it only applies during the planning phase, does that mean I can look at my opponent's dials once the activation phase starts? After all, if the rule only applies during the planning phase, the ENTIRE rule should apply only during the planning phase.

And in more Han a yeah and a half playing tournaments, including everything short of Worlds, I've never seen anyone have a problem with people reviewing their dials.

Edit: more examples... The no repeat actions rule is in the activation phase section... Can Turr use his ability to take a second barrel roll, or Airen Cracken to let someone double up All the actions are likewise in that phase section, does a barrel roll do nothing at all outside the phase because they're defined for that step? The components for a maneuver - speed, bearing, difficulty - are defined in the planing phase. Do those rules have no application outside the planning phase?

& we have a winner!!! Can you imagine the look you would get if you tried to look at your opponents dials as soon as the activation phase started & then tried to use the arguments posted above, please take a pic of your opponents face. I play in a group that likes to challenge rules & play strictly to them, we have ran & attended tournaments & NEVER heard of ANYONE challenge anyone else for looking at their dials AT ANY TIME. The president set by the rest of the book clearly does not support the"but its in the planning phase section" argument

[Sideslip 457]

 

 

 

Three words... 'AT ANY TIME'

DURING THE PLANNING PHASE!

These words are not in the rule book. Do not add words to the rule book.

I invite you to read the text at the top of page 6. Planning Phase. I just worded it to form a proper english sentence.

 

I stand corrected. Those words are in the book. Please allow me to rephrase my admonition: "Don't rearrange the words in the rule book to suit your purposes."

 

I haven't attended any tournaments. But I am curious. Has anybody ever witnessed pkayers checking their dials at events like this?

Yes.

 

StephenEsven, virtually everyone on here disagrees with your interpretation, and that includes some of the best rules analysts on these boards. If you still don't believe us, you are welcome to email for a rules clarification. I'm sure Frank will get back to you sooner or later, but in the meantime, don't expect to run in to any other players who agree with you on this one.

[Plainsman 1,002]

Amazingly enough, I was at the FLGS today and chatted with several XWing players who are in the same league as I am and they have all played in local tournaments at three LGSs. What was the consensus when asked about looking at the dials after the end of the Planning Phase? They agreed 100% that it was NOT allowed and they considered it CHEATING!

As others have said above, if you forgot your ships movements and you barrel roll or boost into the path of another of your ships, that's just part of the game! You can't look and decide which way to boost or barrel roll! You would then have to move that ship! Just like chess, you flip the dial in activation, you are committed!

BTW, I know of at least one message sent to FFG, but those that are arguing for looking at the dials in any phase should ask as well!

[StephenEsven 632]

Well everobe I usually play against is of the same opinion as I am.

And no you can't look at the opponents dials outside the planning phase because nobody can look at the dials. Neither you nor the oponent.

How about team games? In the team play section you are nit allowed to discuss covertly and show your dial to the team mate. But are you allowed to then peak at tye dials of your team mate?

For now I think that it is clear that it is played both ways depending on where you are. And we will probably keep playing that way until we get an FAQ on this. And if we ever run into someone that plays the opposite way, let's simply do a roll off.

At least not looking at the dials outside the planning phase doesn't voilate any rules no matter which interpretation is correct.

[Sergovan 1,440]

Well... at least we all can agree that this dude StephenEsven is a scruffy nerf herder.

This is not a constructed argument that helps resolve a rules issue so it does not belong here.

 

People will say things that may get under your skin, but try to get them to see your point of view on the rules (and use citations to back it up and make it clearer) and refrain from attacking the individual for saying something that you didn't like.

 

This kind of comment helps no one.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Sergovan

[Aminar 1,949]

Well everobe I usually play against is of the same opinion as I am.

And no you can't look at the opponents dials outside the planning phase because nobody can look at the dials. Neither you nor the oponent.

How about team games? In the team play section you are nit allowed to discuss covertly and show your dial to the team mate. But are you allowed to then peak at tye dials of your team mate?

For now I think that it is clear that it is played both ways depending on where you are. And we will probably keep playing that way until we get an FAQ on this. And if we ever run into someone that plays the opposite way, let's simply do a roll off.

At least not looking at the dials outside the planning phase doesn't voilate any rules no matter which interpretation is correct.

Sure it does. Or at least not allowing your opponent to look does. It's cheating. Buhallin has a number of great examples. Nothing anywhere in the rulebook says that rules only apply within the section of the rulebook they show in. With that approach the game doesn't even function. There are rules and rulings scattered all over the place in that book that have been cited to affect multiple phases. We have players who play at the Fantasy Flight Game Center telling you you are wrong. They're judged by FFG employees, if it were cheating they would know. How is that not enough for you.

[Smirrors 7]

In our gaming group, we only look at dials in planning phase and are not allowed in the activation phase until its the ships time to activate. This does create situations where we have no idea what we put down so actions such as advanced sensors and decloaking are a bit more challenging.

The added benefit is it prevents dial manipulation.

[StephenEsven 632]

Well everobe I usually play against is of the same opinion as I am.

And no you can't look at the opponents dials outside the planning phase because nobody can look at the dials. Neither you nor the oponent.

How about team games? In the team play section you are nit allowed to discuss covertly and show your dial to the team mate. But are you allowed to then peak at tye dials of your team mate?

For now I think that it is clear that it is played both ways depending on where you are. And we will probably keep playing that way until we get an FAQ on this. And if we ever run into someone that plays the opposite way, let's simply do a roll off.

At least not looking at the dials outside the planning phase doesn't voilate any rules no matter which interpretation is correct.

Sure it does. Or at least not allowing your opponent to look does. It's cheating. Buhallin has a number of great examples. Nothing anywhere in the rulebook says that rules only apply within the section of the rulebook they show in. With that approach the game doesn't even function. There are rules and rulings scattered all over the place in that book that have been cited to affect multiple phases. We have players who play at the Fantasy Flight Game Center telling you you are wrong. They're judged by FFG employees, if it were cheating they would know. How is that not enough for you.

Like I said earlier, in case of a disagreement in an actual battle I would roll off. Let the dice decide.

I saw posts both for and against my interoretation of the rules, when I asked about tournaments. I am sure the FFG judges do't see everything that happens in every game at a tournament, and if both pkayers are if the same opinion a judge would never have to rule on the matter.

But knowing that people do play like that at official tournaments of cause is interesting.

I will keep not looking at my dials in rhe Activation phase. That at least noone can blame me for.

[haslo 950]

I'm confused now. The rules for maneuver wheels are explained for the planning phase, but not for the other phases. How exactly do I move my ships when I reveal my maneuver dial? There's no rules for what those arrows and colors and numbers mean!

[Plainsman 1,002]

At another FLGS today, two more players and the store TO agreed, Planning Phase only and it has been and will continue to be enforced that way in the tournaments at the store! (Unless there is an official ruling from FFG in the opposite direction.)

And there is a big escalation tournament scheduled for Sat there!

Edited July 13, 2014 by Plainsman

[Plainsman 1,002]

I'm confused now. The rules for maneuver wheels are explained for the planning phase, but not for the other phases. How exactly do I move my ships when I reveal my maneuver dial? There's no rules for what those arrows and colors and numbers mean!

This is mixing up "definitions" and "rules." An arrow and it's color and number is "defined" whereas when it can be looked at is a "rule."

A "rule" is in question in this thread.

[Aminar 1,949]

I'm confused now. The rules for maneuver wheels are explained for the planning phase, but not for the other phases. How exactly do I move my ships when I reveal my maneuver dial? There's no rules for what those arrows and colors and numbers mean!

This is mixing up "definitions" and "rules." An arrow and it's color and number is "defined" whereas when it can be looked at is a "rule."

A "rule" is in question in this thread.

So defenitions applythroughout the rulebook, but rules don't? That's nonsense. And of course your TO agrees with you when you present your logic. People, when unsure, go with the opinion of the person who asks the question. By continuing to push your rule you are quite literally damaging the game. Have them read through a discussion on the matter. Look at all sides from people who support those arguments. Your definition is predicated in the rules of other games. Games that declare their rules to work in the way you're describing. X-Wing most definitley does not.

[Rinehart 684]

At another FLGS today, two more players and the store TO agreed, Planning Phase only and it has been and will continue to be enforced that way in the tournaments at the store! (Unless there is an official ruling from FFG in the opposite direction.)

And there is a big escalation tournament scheduled for Sat there!

Plainsman, just because you got your local players and a local TO to agree with you, doesn't validate your position anymore than your argument already has.

Neither side of these arguments is going to spontaneously decide the other argument is correct. The only end to this is clarification from FFG. Until we get clarification, local pockets of players will play the rule differently.

Both arguments are solid enough to make sense, we just need clarification, bickering with each other is pointless.

[Smirrors 7]

The argument for looking at dials ONLY in the planning phase is stronger.

Until rules are clarified people should not look at dials outside of the planning phase. Playing this way will not only ensure you are playing by the rules but also improve your game play IF you are proven wrong.

At worst this will reduce cheating.

[KineticOperator 2,534]

No, the rules are clear but many people want them to say something else.  You may look at any time is not ambiguous, it does not leave room for interpretation.  There are no precedents anywhere that suggest a written rule applies only during one particular phase that it happens to be mentioned in the rule book, and dozens (in fact all of them) of precedents where it does not.

 

I don't need a chance to examine my own dials.  Having said that, if I wanted to do it I would do so and no I would not accept a roll off.  Roll offs are for questions, not so that a person can directly contradict a printed rule.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Okay, I did the yeoman's work digging up at least a half a dozen examples of cases where there are rules - not just definitions, but rules - which apply outside the phase they're described in.  Not duplicating actions has got to be the gold standard for this.  The rule is provided in the section for the Activation Phase - is there anyone who will claim that rule only applies during the activation phase?  If you want, we can even keep it going.  If Corran is attacking, can he spend a focus token to modify those results?  How, if the rules for spending a focus token are provided as part of the Combat Phase?

 

On the flip side, are there any other examples of similar rules which state a universal time frame (like "at any time") but only apply to the phase it's presented in?

 

The difference between the two sides here is that one side says "We read it like this".  Which is fine.  The other side says "We read it like that, and here are numerous examples of other rules that work like that."  Citing a bunch of other people who are doing it wrong too doesn't mean squat.  Stick to the rules, find another example, or at least try and explain why all of OUR examples are wrong.

 

So let's even keep it simple, and focus on that gold standard: If your theory that rules only apply to the phase they're presented in is correct, then the no-double-action rule only applies during the Activation Phase.  Anyone care to explain why you think that isn't the case?