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Cmacaulay

"Defender" is a misnomer

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As a victim of the defender, it seems to be a good flanker. Taking 4 shots at range 3 with no bonus defense die is more than nice. It is a lot of points, but it earns it.

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I don't think the Defender is quite right.  It seems they left a lot on the design table that would have made it a truly viable ship.  

 

Firstly, the PS3 Defender needed an EPT.  Considering only the best of the best pilots got to fly them it is fitting.  Having the EPT available means that they can take Outmanoeuvre the card that was all but made for them.  By K-turning behind their opponents it forces the opponent to K also or be at a severe disadvantage.  This is a win/win for the Defender.

 

Secondly, the system slot should have been on the Defender and not the Phantom.  I am still puzzled why they did it the way they did by giving the two best slots to the Phantom, though maybe they figured the Defender would end up too much like the B-wing. With Advanced Sensors all of the red turns become usable because you can do your action first.  FCS makes them scary on offense and makes up for the lack of action economy they currently have.  Also some nice synergy between Vessery and other Defenders with FCS.  Sensor Jammer would have been interesting too (but I suspect this was the reason the slot went to the Phantom instead).

 

If you didn't give it the System slot then it would have made sense to give it boost as a native action to allow for some change of direction while doing straight manoeuvres.  I wouldn't give it both a System slot and boost for the points though, but I wouldn't have changed the points and given them 2 of the above 3 options.

 

For such an elite ship it is also odd that it got the PS1 and PS3 treatment, while the Phantom broke the traditional mold by getting PS3 and PS5 generics, odd again, though probably down to the ACD, which lives and breaths by PS.    

 

The last thing that hurts the defender is just how much of your squad it takes up and thus limits your options for the rest of your squad.  It's price seems too expensive to get away with just using naked Defenders (at 25 points maybe).

 

I think the Defender is a big misstep for an otherwise well balanced system.  The potential was certainly there, but it seems to fall closer to the Y-wing and the Advanced for sheer usability, caused by a real lack of options.          

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I don't think the Defender is quite right.  It seems they left a lot on the design table that would have made it a truly viable ship.  

 

Firstly, the PS3 Defender needed an EPT.  Considering only the best of the best pilots got to fly them it is fitting.  Having the EPT available means that they can take Outmanoeuvre the card that was all but made for them.  By K-turning behind their opponents it forces the opponent to K also or be at a severe disadvantage.  This is a win/win for the Defender.

 

Secondly, the system slot should have been on the Defender and not the Phantom.  I am still puzzled why they did it the way they did by giving the two best slots to the Phantom, though maybe they figured the Defender would end up too much like the B-wing. With Advanced Sensors all of the red turns become usable because you can do your action first.  FCS makes them scary on offense and makes up for the lack of action economy they currently have.  Also some nice synergy between Vessery and other Defenders with FCS.  Sensor Jammer would have been interesting too (but I suspect this was the reason the slot went to the Phantom instead).

 

If you didn't give it the System slot then it would have made sense to give it boost as a native action to allow for some change of direction while doing straight manoeuvres.  I wouldn't give it both a System slot and boost for the points though, but I wouldn't have changed the points and given them 2 of the above 3 options.

 

For such an elite ship it is also odd that it got the PS1 and PS3 treatment, while the Phantom broke the traditional mold by getting PS3 and PS5 generics, odd again, though probably down to the ACD, which lives and breaths by PS.    

 

The last thing that hurts the defender is just how much of your squad it takes up and thus limits your options for the rest of your squad.  It's price seems too expensive to get away with just using naked Defenders (at 25 points maybe).

 

I think the Defender is a big misstep for an otherwise well balanced system.  The potential was certainly there, but it seems to fall closer to the Y-wing and the Advanced for sheer usability, caused by a real lack of options.

So long as it's more Y-Wing(also known as perfectly usable) it's fine.

The Defender isn't a bad ship by any means. It's just...

It reminds me of a friend of mines girlfriend.

She's a shade from attractive on every level.

The Defenders dial needed one more thing to work. Either green 1 banks or a 1 forward.

The Defenders action bar needed one more thing. Boost or evade.

The Defenders upgrade slots needed one more thing, although a few cannon options really do make up for this.)

The point cost is a smidge off.

It's all just a hair from clicking into place and being a real beauty.

But that said, it's not unplayable. Just overshadowed by the Firespray and hard to fit in lists.

Until you put it in Epic. :P

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Are we actually in disagreement about something, or are we arguing without actually being in disagreement?

I… I don't know anymore.

 

He's saying over 4 or 5 shots you can probably get 2 evades out of a focus.

No--I'm saying that even over just 2 shots you have about the same chance to spend it for 2 evades as to get skunked, and the more you're attacked the less likely it is that focus will be worse than evade (while the odds that it will be better stay the same). So--in practice, for ships with 3 Agility--focus is seldom worse than evade, and sometimes it's better, so over the long term (multiple rounds, or even multiple games in a tournament) using focus over evade has a tendency to pay off.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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Are we actually in disagreement about something, or are we arguing without actually being in disagreement?

I… I don't know anymore. 

He's saying over 4 or 5 shots you can probably get 2 evades out of a focus.

No--I'm saying that even over just 2 shots you have about the same chance to spend it for 2 evades as to get skunked, and the more you're attacked the less likely it is that focus will be worse than evade (while the odds that it will be better stay the same). So--in practice, for ships with 3 Agility--focus is seldom worse than evade, and sometimes it's better, so over the long term (multiple rounds, or even multiple games in a tournament) using focus over evade has a tendency to pay off.
The more you're attacked the faster you die. Trying to maximize the efficiency of a focus token in the face of Focus fire isn't going to save a ship. Neither is the evade. But the evade works every time. Your math is off on how often it happens. Evade would have been nice on a defender, if for no other reason than late game it is a killer action to have.

Your gambling too much for my taste waiting for a chance to get two focuses. The odds of that coming up are low.

That said, Focus is better because it allows you to modify your attack or defense. nobody is disagreeing with that. But saying its supperior to a focus defensively is not nearly so irrefutable a claim. It can be. But it's a gamble and gambles are bad.

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Vessery usually is simply stealing an action from his wingman, as he destroys the target with his 'free' TL, meaning the pilot who originally had the lock can't use it anymore.

 

Just to point out, Vessery doesn't steal a target lock, he gets to aquire one for himself if the person he's shooting at is already locked.

 

this is correct it means he can take a focus action and after making his first attack use the TL to reroll and alter the result with focus if needed.

 

 

Right, I'm saying that if Wingman A has a target lock on Bogey B, then Vessery focuses, gets a free target lock and proceeds to destroy Bogey B (Not unlikely with a F+TL 4 dice attack), Wingman A can no longer use his target lock - the ship is gone!

 

Certainly on the first round of shooting and against a Large ship or B-Wing, Vessery will generate a free action, but most rounds he is action neutral. Whichever ship is supplying him with the target lock is simply using their action to make sure Vessery's early-in-the-round 4 dice shot is maximized.

 

But that's assuming the lock wastes an otherwise productive action. Fire-Control System is one way to get free locks for Vessery to use, or turns when a ship is mostly clear of any combat and takes an opportunistic target lock to use later. Vader, any shuttle with any combination of weapons engineer, FCS, or ST-321, any Phantom with FCS and Weapons Engineer… there are all other ways to maximize action economy. Even BSP, Saber Squadron or Royal Guard Interceptors with PtL and Targeting Computer can fill this roll.

 

I talked about all this in my first post. I s'pose people read my line about Vessery and just instantly hit the reply button to correct the perceived mistake :P

 

There are ways to do it, but I was trying to respond to the question about how to run multiple defenders. I'm not sure multiple defenders is a great idea, specifically because the way to maximize them is to bring in other ships like the aforementioned ST-321 or Interceptor, which will not have much room for them in a multi-defender list.

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Why would anyone run a TIE Defender over the Firespray?  The Firespray is better in each category other than agility.  The Firespray has a rear arc,

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Large ships are more easily action denied, for one. It's also harder to use asteroids to avoid a Defender. With a Stealth Device especially, the Defender can live longer than a Firespray.

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Why would anyone run a TIE Defender over the Firespray?  The Firespray is better in each category other than agility.  The Firespray has a rear arc,

Because they're fun to fly?

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Because the Firespray isn't inherently better than the Defender. People who cite the rear arc as better than the white K-turn are showing a lack of experience in flying a Firespray or Defender. The rear arc is good, make no doubt about it. But if you are using it, then it means you are essentially fleeing the battle. Yes, it is helpful if you overshoot where the opponent was going, but I would rather have the k-turn, as it allows me to follow up much easier. And then we add in the inherent superiority of having a small base vs a large base. And that the unique pilots are better on the Defender than the Firespray. People just need to adjust to flying the Defender's weird dial, which I am quickly learning to love.

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No--I'm saying that even over just 2 shots you have about the same chance to spend it for 2 evades as to get skunked, and the more you're attacked the less likely it is that focus will be worse than evade (while the odds that it will be better stay the same). So--in practice, for ships with 3 Agility--focus is seldom worse than evade, and sometimes it's better, so over the long term (multiple rounds, or even multiple games in a tournament) using focus over evade has a tendency to pay off.

 

Yes, you're right that in 2 rolls, there's a near 30% chance that it will come up two or three focuses. But that means that there's a 70% chance that you get less than two focuses.

 

Also, I think you should diminish the 30% by the fact that it's staggered. If you get one focus token on the first role, it seems to me that you would probably choose to burn that focus, rather than wait for the 15% chance that you're going to roll a double focus on the next shot. That 15% chance on the next roll should be diminished further by the possibility that the attacker will either do no damage at all, or do too much damage for the double focus to save you, depending on how much damage gets through and how much damage has already been sustained.

 

So, in other words, the chance that you get two focus tokens is actually just 15% even when you're rolling multiple times - because you would be irrational to not burn the first focus you see.

 

... again, presuming just the defense-only consideration.  In practice, I almost never use evade tokens, because I play TIEs and I play very aggressively. Also, it is not impossible that I am irrational.

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

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Just had a squad idea:

 

Vessery w/ Outmaneuver

OGP w/ Vader

Scimitar w/ Ion pulse missiles x2

Go for it!

I've had great success with a similar list with only a minor difference (I use seismic charge and proximity mine instead - which are also quite good at forcing enemy formations apart, leaving room for Vessery to play).

I love this list and plan to keep flying it for a couple more tournaments to see how much further I can push it with experience.

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The odds of losing a Defender to two shots with 3 Attack--even without any token at all to spend on defense--are literally 100:1. 

 

 

 

As a YT player, I have to chime in here.  "Never tell me the odds!"

 

I really want to like the Defender as well, but I think it is limited by points cost.  It seems like a ship you can only ever afford one of and the named pilot abilities seem like an odd match for the role they'd end up with.

 

Maybe I just haven't wrapped my head around it yet.  I do see there being potential for getting two (or more) of them going perpendicular-- then you can just K back and forth and cover a wide area with your primary weapon.

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The Defender is an incomplete ship.

 

You then proceed to fill its voids with upgrades and support options, which means that the real cost of a defender on your squad is its base cost plus all its required upgrades to make it work.

 

Once you fill those voids with upgrades/support, according to your planned strategy, the ship starts to truly perform. Unfortunately that point cost hunger makes the ship almost unplayable on 100 points tournaments. The ship will be more commonly sighted  on epic play format.

 

Essentially, if you check posts about the defender you can see 2 main lines of thinking:

 

- Man, I used a defender last night, [Naked] and it sucks!!!....

- Wow man!, I used a defender last night [with HLC/EU] and it rocks!!...

 

Well, that's by all means, the definition of an incomplete ship.

 

And if you ask me, I still think that FFG way overrated the white K-turn. In fear of making the ship too powerful, FFG sliced every other aspect of the ship due to an ability that will truly provide an advantage... how many times? Once? maybe 2 times per entire battle?

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No--I'm saying that even over just 2 shots you have about the same chance to spend it for 2 evades as to get skunked, and the more you're attacked the less likely it is that focus will be worse than evade (while the odds that it will be better stay the same). So--in practice, for ships with 3 Agility--focus is seldom worse than evade, and sometimes it's better, so over the long term (multiple rounds, or even multiple games in a tournament) using focus over evade has a tendency to pay off.

 

Yes, you're right that in 2 rolls, there's a near 30% chance that it will come up two or three focuses. But that means that there's a 70% chance that you get less than two focuses.

 

Also, I think you should diminish the 30% by the fact that it's staggered. If you get one focus token on the first role, it seems to me that you would probably choose to burn that focus, rather than wait for the 15% chance that you're going to roll a double focus on the next shot. That 15% chance on the next roll should be diminished further by the possibility that the attacker will either do no damage at all, or do too much damage for the double focus to save you, depending on how much damage gets through and how much damage has already been sustained.

 

So, in other words, the chance that you get two focus tokens is actually just 15% even when you're rolling multiple times - because you would be irrational to not burn the first focus you see.

 

... again, presuming just the defense-only consideration.  In practice, I almost never use evade tokens, because I play TIEs and I play very aggressively. Also, it is not impossible that I am irrational.

 

I'd like to benignly point out that this is a game about dogfighting and instinct. Sometimes it's cooler and way more fun to go with your gut. Earlier this week, I was flying Rexler Brath against some rebels. I had an X-wing at range 1, a Y-Wing at range 1 and a Headhunter at range 3, all firing on me. The Headhunter was easily and handily evaded, then the X-wing fired and got 3 out of 4 hits after target lock. I rolled 2 evades and a focus, but since I'd already soaked most of the damage and it was a defender with 1 shield missing, I decided to take that last bit and not burn the focus. With only the Y-Wing remaining, the opponent was going to fire primaries but instead opted to use their Ion Cannon Turret. He rolled 3 natural hits, and my defense roll came up 3 focuses.

 

Statistically probable? Not a chance. Highly awesome-feeling to imagine what must have been a spectacular evade? Absolutely. But as I've said before, statistics and averages are all well and good and I'll never belittle someone for using them to strategize. But this is a game about variances, not averages, and they really do make all the difference in the world. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut.

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I think the lack of evade action really hurts the ship. For what you pay for the **** thing, I'm surprised it can't.

 

Hypothetically, you can lose one in two shots from a 3 attack dice ship. An evade action would ensure that even under the worst conditions, it will survive three hits.

Just like a X-Wing, A-Wing, E-Wing, Z-95, HWK-290, Tie Fighter, Tie Advanced, Tie Interceptor, Tie Bomber and Tie Phantom. Hypothetically, a LOT of ship can be destroyed in 2 shots if you roll only blanks. **** happens and bad luck will come up from time to time.

 

The ship is nice. 2 Defender with HLC and Jonus can be very nasty, Rexler with mini-swarm, Vessery with Bombers.

The only one of those that compares in cost is the E-Wing, and neither one is defensively reliable, but the E-Wing can use Push the limit to much greater effect to manage a focus and an evade, while also getting target locks from Fire Control. In addition E-Wings can recieve extra focuses and actions from much better sources than Defenders, and can equip Astromechs. It is fair to say that I would rather have a Hull upgraded EWing than a Defender for the same cost any day. The only exception being that Vessery's ability is fantastic on a well designed team. Even then, it's hard to compare him to Etahn with Push for the Same cost. And I don't particularly like the E-Wing. I think it's overcosted, but at least it's got some fun customization options.

 

I was mainly replying to the idea that the ship really need the evade action just so it can't be destroyed in 2 shot. We are talking a highly rare situation and something that can happen to a lot of other ships.

 

Take the E-Wing, even with a focus+evade combo thanks to PtL or a friendly member assistance, doesn't have more chance to avoid a 2 shot kill. You could take Luke+R2-D2+Shield Upgrade, considered a good tank. and be destroyed in 2 shots. Echo with ACD and VI can be one shot if you flip a direct hit. And on and on.

 

I just don't buy it. I also thought it needed the evade action at first, but after playing it, it doesn't. And if it had, it would become a very though nut to crack. 6 hit point combined with 3 agility, when played correctly, can be really hard to kill. Sure, if you only go upfront and get a lot of shots against you, just like any other ship, you will go down fast. But if you play it more like a flanker and try to actually dodge the firing arcs like you would with a Tie Fighter or Interceptor, you will find out that it can stay alive for a very long time!

 

People can hate the ship for many reasons, but I don't think survivability should be one of those, cause it can take a beating. But, people should not fall into a false sense of security that it always will just because it has 6 hit point and 3 agility; it will also fall rapidly sometimes, just like many other ships.

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People can hate the ship for many reasons, but I don't think survivability should be one of those, cause it can take a beating. But, people should not fall into a false sense of security that it always will just because it has 6 hit point and 3 agility; it will also fall rapidly sometimes, just like many other ships.

 

Agreed. I've had so many matches with it where people have been saying "man i have to kill that thing but i just can't seem to make it die!" It is a truly survivable beast. I mean, I've had regular TIEs that just wouldn't quit thanks to their agility. The defender is twice the HP, and half of it is shields. What's not to like?

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I think people are running the defender in the wrong squads. Personally I feel it benefits the most from a 3 ship elite squad. For instance vessery with outmaneuver and hlc along with a BH w/recon spec and a scimitar bomber with ion pulse missiles for 100 points. This makes it a much tougher choice for the opponent to pick. If they decide to focus on vessery then you've got a BH with 3 attack and double focus along with a bomber that can shut down any ship with a double ion. Either way you try to go your looking at some nasty shots headed your way. Maybe elite build isn't the right word for this particular list but really my point is the defender needs wingman of equal threat in order to survive. Maybe this is the wrong approach and I'm not sure how competitive this build would be as I have yet to try it however I have played a game with a phantom and defender and just from that game felt like it needed other threats to fly along side it.

 

I think this is pretty spot on.

 

I've flown the Defender a couple of times now - and played against it as well - and in the instances where it has been ineffective or died quickly, whether on my side or my opponent's side, has been when there wasn't something paired with it to make it an interesting or appealing choice to attack.

 

For example, I flew Rexlar with both Echo and Whisper and my opponent was unsure which ship to attack. As well, the higher PS values meant I was shooting first almost every time. He didn't know what to do. Now, when my opponent flew his Defender list, he used a mini-swarm of Academy Ties and Howlrunner, but left Rexlar on the far flank alone. I immediately went after the lone ship and made short work of Rexlar, nullifying any threat or damage he may've imposed. Keeping him with the swarm in a follow-up game certainly made it a more difficult decision for me as, 1) if I left Rexlar alone, he could light me up with his ability or the HLC he was carrying, or 2) if I left Howlrunner alone, then all the Academy schmatties - and Brexlar, for that matter - are getting boosted with the reroll ability.

 

I think pairing the Defender with another ship, or ships, that strike fear in the opponent might be one of the best ways to utilize the ship to its full potential. The multipronged attack, as it were, that leaves your opponent unsure of what to do.

Edited by rym
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I think the lack of evade action really hurts the ship. For what you pay for the **** thing, I'm surprised it can't.

 

Hypothetically, you can lose one in two shots from a 3 attack dice ship. An evade action would ensure that even under the worst conditions, it will survive three hits.

Just like a X-Wing, A-Wing, E-Wing, Z-95, HWK-290, Tie Fighter, Tie Advanced, Tie Interceptor, Tie Bomber and Tie Phantom. Hypothetically, a LOT of ship can be destroyed in 2 shots if you roll only blanks. **** happens and bad luck will come up from time to time.

 

The ship is nice. 2 Defender with HLC and Jonus can be very nasty, Rexler with mini-swarm, Vessery with Bombers.

The only one of those that compares in cost is the E-Wing, and neither one is defensively reliable, but the E-Wing can use Push the limit to much greater effect to manage a focus and an evade, while also getting target locks from Fire Control. In addition E-Wings can recieve extra focuses and actions from much better sources than Defenders, and can equip Astromechs. It is fair to say that I would rather have a Hull upgraded EWing than a Defender for the same cost any day. The only exception being that Vessery's ability is fantastic on a well designed team. Even then, it's hard to compare him to Etahn with Push for the Same cost. And I don't particularly like the E-Wing. I think it's overcosted, but at least it's got some fun customization options.

I was mainly replying to the idea that the ship really need the evade action just so it can't be destroyed in 2 shot. We are talking a highly rare situation and something that can happen to a lot of other ships.

 

Take the E-Wing, even with a focus+evade combo thanks to PtL or a friendly member assistance, doesn't have more chance to avoid a 2 shot kill. You could take Luke+R2-D2+Shield Upgrade, considered a good tank. and be destroyed in 2 shots. Echo with ACD and VI can be one shot if you flip a direct hit. And on and on.

 

I just don't buy it. I also thought it needed the evade action at first, but after playing it, it doesn't. And if it had, it would become a very though nut to crack. 6 hit point combined with 3 agility, when played correctly, can be really hard to kill. Sure, if you only go upfront and get a lot of shots against you, just like any other ship, you will go down fast. But if you play it more like a flanker and try to actually dodge the firing arcs like you would with a Tie Fighter or Interceptor, you will find out that it can stay alive for a very long time!

 

People can hate the ship for many reasons, but I don't think survivability should be one of those, cause it can take a beating. But, people should not fall into a false sense of security that it always will just because it has 6 hit point and 3 agility; it will also fall rapidly sometimes, just like many other ships.

The question becomes is that risk worth the cost though. The Firespray is a very similar number of points, has very similar firepower, better upgrade options, and doesn't have that weakness.

As I've said, the Defender is a solid ship, in the same way the Y-Wing is solid. It can perform well, but it is just slightly off. It needs something special. As cool as the white K-Turn is, that specialness is only Ok because it's a very predictable speciallness. It isn't a customizable ship. It isn't an adaptable ship. The Evade action isn't really special, but it would allow for late game tanking more reliable than focus. I don't think the Evade action would solve my issues with the ship though.

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I think people are running the defender in the wrong squads. Personally I feel it benefits the most from a 3 ship elite squad. For instance vessery with outmaneuver and hlc along with a BH w/recon spec and a scimitar bomber with ion pulse missiles for 100 points. This makes it a much tougher choice for the opponent to pick. If they decide to focus on vessery then you've got a BH with 3 attack and double focus along with a bomber that can shut down any ship with a double ion. Either way you try to go your looking at some nasty shots headed your way. Maybe elite build isn't the right word for this particular list but really my point is the defender needs wingman of equal threat in order to survive. Maybe this is the wrong approach and I'm not sure how competitive this build would be as I have yet to try it however I have played a game with a phantom and defender and just from that game felt like it needed other threats to fly along side it.

 

I think this is pretty spot on.

 

I've flown the Defender a couple of times now - and played against it as well - and in the instances where it has been ineffective or died quickly, whether on my side or my opponent's side, has been when there wasn't something paired with it to make it an interesting or appealing choice to attack.

 

For example, I flew Rexlar with both Echo and Whisper and my opponent was unsure which ship to attack. As well, the higher PS values meant I was shooting first almost every time. He didn't know what to do. Now, when my opponent flew his Defender list, he used a mini-swarm of Academy Ties and Howlrunner, but left Rexlar on the far flank alone. I immediately went after the lone ship and made short work of Rexlar, nullifying any threat or damage he may've imposed. Keeping him with the swarm in a follow-up game certainly made it a more difficult decision for me as, 1) if I left Rexlar alone, he could light me up with his ability or the HLC he was carrying, or 2) if I left Howlrunner alone, then all the Academy schmatties - and Brexlar, for that matter - are getting boosted with the reroll ability.

 

I think pairing the Defender with another ship, or ships, that strike fear in the opponent might be one of the best ways to utilize the ship to its full potential. The multipronged attack, as it were, that leaves your opponent unsure of what to do.

 

I agree with this. The only thing I would say is, that the Defender can be very effective with a mini-swarm if either like you said it stays with the swarm, or if you want to run it as a flanker than you need to run it as a generic instead of a named pilot. Like in my previous post back on page one, it's all about spreading out equal threats. Sure if you run a 37+ point ship on its own people are going to gun for it and leave you with a lot of dropped points early on, but if it's only a 30 point ship than that gives them more of something to think about. It all comes down to balanced list building.

 

But in general, I agree with you 100%.

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I was mainly replying to the idea that the ship really need the evade action just so it can't be destroyed in 2 shot. We are talking a highly rare situation and something that can happen to a lot of other ships.

 

Take the E-Wing, even with a focus+evade combo thanks to PtL or a friendly member assistance, doesn't have more chance to avoid a 2 shot kill. You could take Luke+R2-D2+Shield Upgrade, considered a good tank. and be destroyed in 2 shots. Echo with ACD and VI can be one shot if you flip a direct hit. And on and on.

 

I just don't buy it. I also thought it needed the evade action at first, but after playing it, it doesn't. And if it had, it would become a very though nut to crack. 6 hit point combined with 3 agility, when played correctly, can be really hard to kill. Sure, if you only go upfront and get a lot of shots against you, just like any other ship, you will go down fast. But if you play it more like a flanker and try to actually dodge the firing arcs like you would with a Tie Fighter or Interceptor, you will find out that it can stay alive for a very long time!

 

People can hate the ship for many reasons, but I don't think survivability should be one of those, cause it can take a beating. But, people should not fall into a false sense of security that it always will just because it has 6 hit point and 3 agility; it will also fall rapidly sometimes, just like many other ships.

The question becomes is that risk worth the cost though. The Firespray is a very similar number of points, has very similar firepower, better upgrade options, and doesn't have that weakness.

As I've said, the Defender is a solid ship, in the same way the Y-Wing is solid. It can perform well, but it is just slightly off. It needs something special. As cool as the white K-Turn is, that specialness is only Ok because it's a very predictable speciallness. It isn't a customizable ship. It isn't an adaptable ship. The Evade action isn't really special, but it would allow for late game tanking more reliable than focus. I don't think the Evade action would solve my issues with the ship though.

 

I don't consider survivability a Defender weakness, far from it. It is one of the tankiest ship the Empire can field. Second only to the Firespray and maybe, maybe, the Advanced. It becomes a player preference to which ship he prefer to take.

 

When compared to the Firespray, because we love so much to do so, it does bring another playing style. Not everyone like to fly big base ship. Being a small base makes the Defender easier to fit in small place like an asteroid field or a close fight, it's harder to block and, regarding tankiness of both ship, it's also harder to get into your firing arc; even with the rear arc, the Firespray is not that hard to flank because it's large. Regarding the dials, both are very good, but I would give the edge slightly to the Defender because of the hard 1 and the white k-turn, it does help the Defender get back into the fight faster than the Firespray and the rear arc. The defender might not have the Evade action, but it does have the Barrel Roll, which gives him even more maneuvrability over the Firespray. I personally love both, but don't consider one better than the other. For my playstyle, the Defender fits a little more.

 

Also, for my part, I would prefer to take a focus action over an evade one even if the Defender could take both. His 6 health makes up for the occasional blank roll and since I take this ship to bring the hurt, I like to have a Focus for offense. Being PS1-3 allow you to see if you needed it for defense in the first place.

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I think the lack of evade action really hurts the ship. For what you pay for the **** thing, I'm surprised it can't.

The evade action is typically weaker defensively than focus would be for ships with 3 Agility.

 

 

How do you figure sportsfan?

 

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/915146/math-wing-hit-probabilities

 

In every situation, evade lowers the chance of dealing damage for 3 agility dice. Just look down the table, every situation, if the defender has an evade, the chance to do that much damage is lower.

 

Alternatively, you go go here: http://xwingdice.com/

 

Try out 3 attack w/ focus, no special ability versus 3 defense with a focus and no ability. That gets you a real expected damage output of 0.681666983081. Then try 3 attack w/ focus and no special ability versus 3 defense with an evade and no ability. That gets you a real expected damage output of 0.532100835316.

Edited by s1n

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I think the lack of evade action really hurts the ship. For what you pay for the **** thing, I'm surprised it can't.

The evade action is typically weaker defensively than focus would be for ships with 3 Agility.

 

 

How do you figure sportsfan?

 

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/915146/math-wing-hit-probabilities

 

In every situation, evade lowers the chance of dealing damage for 3 agility dice. Just look down the table, every situation, if the defender has an evade, the chance to do that much damage is lower.

 

Alternatively, you go go here: http://xwingdice.com/

 

Try out 3 attack w/ focus, no special ability versus 3 defense with a focus and no ability. That gets you a real expected damage output of 0.681666983081. Then try 3 attack w/ focus and no special ability versus 3 defense with an evade and no ability. That gets you a real expected damage output of 0.532100835316.

 

But then do it again when at range 3 or with an asteroid cover and suddenly Focus is better since you have more chance to dodge everything, read 0 hit. Also take into account that if you don't use your focus in defense, you can use it in offense, something you can't with Evade, except for Kir Kanos. Evade is better when at range 1-2, but the versatility of Focus and better success with 4+ dice should not be discounted.

 

Both have their moments, but I don't think the lack of evade action hurt the Defender.

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