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AlexW

Question On Kagi Target Lock

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No, this isn't a FCS/Kagi question :)  I do apologize if it's been asked and answered elsewhere, but I did a couple of searches on various sites and couldn't find anything on it.

 

Anyway, I was wondering at what point an opponent is committed to TL on Kagi.  

 

For example, if they declare they are checking for a target lock on a different ship and then find they would have to TL Kagi instead, can they then change their action?

 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

 

 

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For TLs, they will only target Kagi if able. If he is out of range or the TL is limited to the defender only (as with FCS) then you do not have to TL Kagi. If he is in range and it is a TL action then you do have to target lock Kagi. 

Edited by Sergovan

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For TLs, they will only target Kagi if able. If he is out of range or the TL is limited to the defender only (as with FCS) then you do not have to TL Kagi. If he is in range and it is a TL action then you do have to target lock Kagi. 

Thanks for the response.  I guess part of what brought this up is this paragraph in the tournament rules:

 

• When acquiring a target lock, a player must first declare the intended 
target. Then, he measures range to the declared target to see if the 
target is within legal range. If the target is in range, the ship performing 
the action must acquire a target lock on the target. If the target is not 
in range, the player may declare a different target, or he may declare a 
different action.
 
I think you are correct and agree, but I guess I was wondering if some people thought this might mean that if the target wasn't able to be target locked (even though their original target is in range, but they'd have to lock Kagi), they could take a different action, as in my example.    I'm just making sure there's no ambiguity in case I decide to run this list in a competitive setting.

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The rule is, if you declare TL and can, then you must.

So I would say if I declare a TL on Soontir Fel, I can measure to him. If he is within range, I would then have to see if Kagi was in range. If Kagi is, I must TL him, if not, then I must TL Soontir.

I will say that I don't know this for a fact but this is how I imagine it would go.

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I honestly don't know.

 

I think the difference in terminology between Biggs and Kagi is informative.  Both basically do the same thing - if you want to do X, you have to do it to this ship.  But they're phrased differently - Biggs says you can't attack anyone but him, Kagi says if you do a lock, it has to be on him.  I think it's an important difference - Biggs makes the other attack illegal, so you can't declare it in the first place.  Kagi changes the target mid-flight.

 

But there's probably a solid argument that despite the difference in wording they function the same.

 

<shrug>  I'd throw this one at FFG.

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The rule is, if you declare TL and can, then you must.

So I would say if I declare a TL on Soontir Fel, I can measure to him. If he is within range, I would then have to see if Kagi was in range. If Kagi is, I must TL him, if not, then I must TL Soontir.

I will say that I don't know this for a fact but this is how I imagine it would go.

In a tournament setting this would be the correct way of using Kagi's ability.

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A related question.

If Darth vader shoots at Tarn Mison, and Captain Kagi is in Targetlock range, who does Tarn get a reactionary target lock on. Vader or Kagi.

Tarn acquires a target lock on his attacker.

As Kagi is not in the set of [Tarn's Attacker], Kagi cannot be targeted.

Similarly with FCS.

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A related question.

If Darth vader shoots at Tarn Mison, and Captain Kagi is in Targetlock range, who does Tarn get a reactionary target lock on. Vader or Kagi.

Tarn acquires a target lock on his attacker.

As Kagi is not in the set of [Tarn's Attacker], Kagi cannot be targeted.

Similarly with FCS.

I thought so, but didn't want my opponent to feel slighted. But that was what I'd guessed.

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So what if the situation were reversed?  Say Kagi is in R3 of me, and I try to TL Fel.  Fel turns out to be just outside of R3, so I cannot take the TL, but since I've declared I want to take a TL, must I take it on Kagi, who is in range?  

 

I would argue that this isn't the way it works.  Since Kagi says when I aquire a TL I must TL Kagi if able.  Since I wasn't actually able to aquire the TL on Fel, I couldn't acquire a TL, so I should be able to take a different action and not TL Kagi.

 

Does anyone disagree with my assesment?

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It might be the same issue and solution as the above but does R7-T1 bypass Kagi's ability as well?

Kagi ability states that when an enemy ship aquires a target lock, it must aquire it on him.  If you are at range 1-2, and inside Kagi's firing arc, you would be able to aquire a target lock on him using R7-T1's action, so if you used that action, you would have to aquire the TL on Kagi.

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It might be the same issue and solution as the above but does R7-T1 bypass Kagi's ability as well?

Kagi ability states that when an enemy ship aquires a target lock, it must aquire it on him.  If you are at range 1-2, and inside Kagi's firing arc, you would be able to aquire a target lock on him using R7-T1's action, so if you used that action, you would have to aquire the TL on Kagi.

 

Not necessarily. You choose the target for the ability before you attempt to TL it, so if you choose a ship other than Kagi you would be free to get the lock on it, for much the same reason as with Tarn (ie. Kagi is removed from the list of legal TL targets).

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Its not the same as the example for Tarn, Tarns possible TL's is his attacker, with the R7-T1 Kagi is a valid target of the TL assuming he's in the attackers firing arc & at range 1-2, everyone in that arc & range 1-2 is a potential target for the TL, therefore Kagi's ability would kick in

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Original question, repurposed/rephrased:

A player wants to perform an acquire a target lock action on X ship, and, after measuring first to X ship, then to Kagi, it is determined that both X and Kagi are able to be target locked. By Kagi's ability, X becomes an invalid choice to target lock. Since the player's original attempt was to target lock X ship, can he declare a different action instead of target locking Kagi?

In my estimation, this seems to be the same case as declaring a target lock action, then measuring and finding out that your intended target was out of range, therefore an invalid target, and performing a focus action instead. So, I think if your declared choice was invalidated by virtue of Kagi, you would be able to pick a different action. But is this true?

EDIT: This is not true.

While not listed under Kagi's card in the FAQ, it is in the "Combat" section.

Q: If a ship attempts to acquire a target lock on an enemy ship at Range 1-3 but Captain Kagi is also at Range 1-3, can that player choose a different action or does that ship have to acquire a target lock on Captain Kagi?

A: The target lock must be acquired on Captain Kagi.

Edited by Sparklelord

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Original question, repurposed/rephrased:

A player wants to perform an acquire a target lock action on X ship, and, after measuring first to X ship, then to Kagi, it is determined that both X and Kagi are able to be target locked. By Kagi's ability, X becomes an invalid choice to target lock. Since the player's original attempt was to target lock X ship, can he declare a different action instead of target locking Kagi?

In my estimation, this seems to be the same case as declaring a target lock action, then measuring and finding out that your intended target was out of range, therefore an invalid target, and performing a focus action instead. So, I think if your declared choice was invalidated by virtue of Kagi, you would be able to pick a different action. But is this true?

That... is actually something that needs to be FAQ'd.

 

One interpretation is "I desire to target-lock X, and measure to it, then measure to Kagi, find that I can target-lock Kagi, and am allowed to change action", as you stated.

Another interpretation is "I desire to target-lock, and Kagi is on the board, so I measure to Kagi. Finding him out of range, I would then be able to measure to another ship".

 

I personally think the latter is more consistent with action impellation, but see enough merit in both to make players in a dispute roll for it rather than issue a ruling.

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It already was FAQ'd, DraconPyrothayan, I just didn't see it at first because it was in a different section than expected.

See edit above.

It fits your second version best, after all.

 

That FAQ entry does not address declaring a target lock against a target that is outside of range 3 but I don't think that it needs to be FAQ'd. The trigger for Kagi's ability is "When an enemy ship acquires a target lock". You need to actually be able to acquire a target lock for Kagi to kick in. That FAQ entry just basically says that there are no take backs on your TL action if you realize that you have to TL Kagi instead of your intended target.

 

I'd prefer Kagi's ability to kick in as soon as you declare the Target Lock action. You'd never even bother measuring to the original target.

Edited by WWHSD

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