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Ryther

Sensor jammer and R7

17 posts in this topic

Hmm that is interesting. Because they both create absolute situations, you must or can't do something, and in this case they conflict with each other.

The E-Wing is the only ship that can pull this off right now.

Sensor Jammer lets you change one <hit> to a <eye> and says "The attacker cannot reroll the die with the changed result."

But R7 says that all dice picked by the defender must be rerolled.

I'd guess the best way to do it is to use R7 first, pick the dice you want changed, then the attacker rerolls them. Then you could use Sensor Jammer to change one of the <hit> results to a <eye> which the attacker can't reroll.

Doing it this way would at least avoid the issue of contradictory conditions, Must/Can't reroll. Tactically it makes the most sense to use R7 first anyway. You'd pick all the <hit> and <crit> results to reroll, hoping for <blank> or at least <eye> then you'd use Sensor Jammer to change any die that came up <hit> again.

But with all that said, I'm not sure what you'd do when you have 2 cards both of which have the same timing, but contradict each other.

If you used Sensor Jammer first, then for some reason picked that die to reroll with R7, could the attacker roll it again? Sensor Jammer says they can't, but R7 says you must. In that case, I think I'd be inclined to use the last effect played, so R7's reroll would apply. Edited by VanorDM

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Nothing necessarily contradictory about it - can't beats can.  Page 20: If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden.

 

So if R7 tells you you have to reroll a die, but Sensor Jammer says you can't, then you can't.  With that in mind, the order is pretty standard.

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can't beats can.


But it's not can it's must. Rerolling dice with R7 isn't optional. I'm not sure page 20 applies because this isn't a matter of allowing something, it's requiring something.

But I could see the system being that can't beats can or even must.

Again since you have the option on order, you can and I think even are better off avoiding it by simply using R7 first. Edited by VanorDM

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I don't think "must" has any special meaning here.  It's just a grammatical construct.

 

Every effect that doesn't include "may" is mandatory, and requires something.  There aren't many cards that use "must" and if you look at the ones that do, I think you could remove the word without any impact on how the ability functions.

 

Consider Elusiveness instead of R7.  Identical wording (must), but only affects one die.  If R7 and Elusiveness both ignore "can't beats can" because of "must", then you can combine them to break the one-reroll-per rule.  Ignoring intent for the moment, that gets really, REALLY messy - you can't reroll a die more than once.  Unless you have two mandatory rerolls.  Or one mandatory one that you happen to use second.

 

Bleagh.

 

It's not as explicit as I'd like, but "Can't beats can" is typically something of a golden rule.  Lacking something that explicitly contradicts it - such as Tycho - it needs to stand.

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I don't think "must" has any special meaning here.


Perhaps. But rerolling those dice aren't optional either, you're not allowed to reroll them if you chose to, you have to reroll the ones chosen. There's nothing optional on the Attackers part when you use R7. So while must may not be a rules term, that doesn't change the mandatory nature of R7's effect.
 

It's not as explicit as I'd like, but "Can't beats can" is typically something of a golden rule. Lacking something that explicitly contradicts it - such as Tycho - it needs to stand.


Sure and I'd even agree with that. If you have something that requires you to do something, and you have something that forbids you to do that very thing. You have a conflict, but I think it does make things work more smoothly if we assume that can't beats can or even must, unless FFG says otherwise. Edited by VanorDM

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Why would you want your opponent to reroll a die that you had just jammed?

 

I'd do it if it was legal and if I had say predator/target lock and no focus/marksmanship.  

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So while must may not be a rules term, that doesn't change the mandatory nature of R7's effect.

Again, though - EVERY effect, unless it's a "may", is mandatory.

 

Here's a solid FAQ example...  Is the second attack of a Cluster Missile mandatory?  It pretty clearly is - once you've activated the card, there's no "may" on making the second attack, so it's mandatory that if you use the card, you make both attacks whether you want to or not.  But Gunner's "cannot perform any additional attacks" short-circuits it if you use it after the first.  One mandatory effect, one prohibitive effect, the prohibition wins.

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Ok, as I see it the target has two options when it comes to applying R7 and a Sensor Jammer:

 

1.  Use R7 first to reroll and of the attack dice you choose.  After that you may use Sensor Jammer to turn one [hit] to [eye].

 

2.  Use Sensor Jammer first to turn one [hit] into an [eye] and use R7 (at TL) to reroll any other attack dice.

 

In either situation your opponent will not be able to reroll any of the dice you did something with.

 

It seems to me that the "smart" way to order things will be to make the attacker reroll any dice via R7 and then use the Sensor Jammer to turn any resulting [hit] into an [eye].  

 

Now if you WANT to be difficult I guess you could turn the die with Sensor Jammer and then say it MUST be rerolled with R7 be do everyone a favor and DON'T BE AN IDIOT!

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Now if you WANT to be difficult I guess you could turn the die with Sensor Jammer and then say it MUST be rerolled with R7 be do everyone a favor and DON'T BE AN IDIOT!

Not entirely sure what in this discussion made that necessary...

 

Sheesh.

 

At least I wait 6 pages or so into a discussion before I get to calling people idiots.

pete.riedner likes this

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2.  Use Sensor Jammer first to turn one [hit] into an [eye] and use R7 (at TL) to reroll any other attack dice.

 

In either situation your opponent will not be able to reroll any of the dice you did something with.

 

Actually in #2 s/he could reroll the die you used Sensor Jammer on.

 

Edited after RTFC.  :wacko:

Edited by ziggy2000

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Now if you WANT to be difficult I guess you could turn the die with Sensor Jammer and then say it MUST be rerolled with R7 be do everyone a favor and DON'T BE AN IDIOT!

Not entirely sure what in this discussion made that necessary...

 

Sheesh.

 

At least I wait 6 pages or so into a discussion before I get to calling people idiots.

 

 

I'm sorry if hits someone who previously posted (it isn't specifically targeted anyway) but I see this making a mountain out of a molehill.  

 

I mean with Sensor Jammer you "adjust" a Die and then you're opponent can not re-roll it.  R7 forces your opponent to re-roll dice you select and then the re-roll rule should kick in preventing them from getting thrown again.  The ONLY place I see any issues is when you "adjust" a die with Sensor Jammer so your opponent can't re-roll it and then try telling him that he must re-roll it using R7.  The only trouble comes when you want there to be trouble.

 

 

 

 

2.  Use Sensor Jammer first to turn one [hit] into an [eye] and use R7 (at TL) to reroll any other attack dice.

 

In either situation your opponent will not be able to reroll any of the dice you did something with.

 

Actually in #2 s/he could reroll the die you used Sensor Jammer on.

 

 

And how would that happen?  The last time I looked the Sensor Jammer attaches an "attacker cannot reroll the die with the changed result" note to the modified die.  The die modified by the Sensor Jammer can't be rerolled; the dice rolled via R7 can't be rerolled again.  So what's the problem?

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And how would that happen?  The last time I looked the Sensor Jammer attaches an "attacker cannot reroll the die with the changed result" note to the modified die.  The die modified by the Sensor Jammer can't be rerolled; the dice rolled via R7 can't be rerolled again.  So what's the problem?

 

Oops.  That's what I get for not RTFC...

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 Page 20: If one card ability forbids an effect, while another ability allows it, the effect is forbidden.

This.

 

The last time I looked the Sensor Jammer attaches an "attacker cannot reroll the die with the changed result" note to the modified die.  The die modified by the Sensor Jammer can't be rerolled; the dice rolled via R7 can't be rerolled again.  So what's the problem?

And that.

 

 

Two scenarios:

 

a) Defender uses sensor jammer first and R7 second.

Sensor jammer modifies one die. Nothing can reroll that die.

 

b) Defender uses R7 first and sensor jammer second.

R7 rerolls dice. Sensor jammer changes one die, which has already been rerolled by R7.

 

Both scenarios seem legal to me.

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I'm not sure I see where R7 is 'mandatory' in this scenario. You've still got the option to spend the TL to use him, so he doesn't kick in automatically. If you do choose to use him along with sensor jammer, what's the worst that can happen? You mess up your opponent's dice (hopefully in your favour) and deny him the chance to do much about it. How's that a bad thing?

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Here's a solid FAQ example...  Is the second attack of a Cluster Missile mandatory?


Good point. :) I guess you're right, can't does always win and there is as you point out a good FAQ precedence for that. 
 

I'm not sure I see where R7 is 'mandatory' in this scenario.


Using R7 isn't mandatory, but the attacker rerolling the chosen dice is mandatory.

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