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Grand Trader Chode

Corruption Points

28 posts in this topic

Fast and hard I'd advise really only giving them out under two circumstances, the first being that the players are exposed directly the the warp or warp tainted being and objects. The second would be if they do things so loathsome and reprehensible that they're ugly as hell even by normal 40k standards. Like for instance selling children into slavery or systematically executing innocents for no real gain other than to appear scary.

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What? Selling children (especially what we consider children today) into slavery has been a legal and widely accepted practise during large parts of actual human history, and regular old killing for intimidation is just beyond weak.

 

Don't listen to these fools. Chaos rituals, warp breaches, interacting with tainted objects or being possessed, that's fair enough, but people use warp gates, sorcerous rituals and daemon weapons all the time without damning their souls. Don't give out corruption points for actions that aren't even related to Chaos, and by all the gods known and unknown, give the poor suckers WP tests to avoid it.

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There are mundane sources of corruption as well; mostly radiation and chemical exposure.  In the 40k universe, these kinde of gene-damaging activities can have a very strange effect on human (and xeno) physiology.

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Regularly eating soylent green for example, especially if you know what it is would give out low level corruption.

 

Heck being in the void with a damaged void suit for too long might even give out a point due to stellar radiation.

 

Remember that corruption isn't purely chaos, it's anything mucking with your DNA and purity.

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Regularly eating soylent green for example, especially if you know what it is would give out low level corruption.

That is the silliest thing I have heard today. Corpse starch is like the most consumed substance in the Imperium.

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Conventional stochastic DNA damage (by radiation, chemical mutagens, etc.) and resultant mutation can't and won't really produce results in any way resembling most of the outcomes on the mutation and malignancy tables.  I would argue that that sort of thing should be handled purely through temporary (or in severe cases permanent) toughness (which is how radiation weapons work in these game lines) or wounds damage. No amount of sipping laboratory chemicals or sleeping beneath an active medical x-ray machine is going to make you a pseudodaemon or a psyker. Or do you give out corruption for eating too much cured red meat too?

Edited by Andkat
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I for one can certainly see radiation and chemicals giving out corruption points (on a failed toughness save, of course - it's pretty clear in the fluff that a tougher body makes you more resistant to the physical effects of Chaos), not because it makes any kind of scientific sense, but because of comic book logic. If you can accept chainswords, surely "glowing green goo = mutant super powers" won't shatter your mind. It's a matter of thematic proprietry, however - corruption and insanity are tools for GMs to add an extra level of risk to certain situations. If you give your players no choice but to resign themselves to the fact that you're gonna hand them out whenever you feel like it until they die, it'll likely have no impact on their choices at all, since they know they'll die anyway.

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I was referring to voluntary cannibalism not the act of eating reprocessed biomatter. But yes, it is 'out there' as one of the wackier ways to gain IP or CP.

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In my understanding, Corruption and the kind of Mutation that the Imperium condemn is punctually that which is generated by warp/chaos exposure.

 

Eating a living human being while it's still alive and agonizing, wouldn't generate corruption points just because of the flesh that is consumed and its components, but due to the connection that is built with some of the Ruinous Powers when doing such.

 

The same way I wouldn't give CP to a person lopping off heads in the name of the Emperah, I would give those CP points to that same person if he/she did so in the name of Khorne (Skulls for the Skull Throne!)

 

Did I make any sense? It's 7pm here on a Friday and my job probably already wasted my mind too badly by now.

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The Imperium condemns all mutation - at least officially, but it's more of a hassle to test every mutant for chaos corruption than to just kill them all and be done with it. Comic book-style mutations do occur in 40k,  if such background options as contaminated environs are to be believed.

 

I have, myself, included worlds that were so blasted and corrupted by radiation and other filth that the sewage in some places could cause corruption points.

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The Imperium condemns all mutation - at least officially, but it's more of a hassle to test every mutant for chaos corruption than to just kill them all and be done with it. Comic book-style mutations do occur in 40k,  if such background options as contaminated environs are to be believed.

 

I have, myself, included worlds that were so blasted and corrupted by radiation and other filth that the sewage in some places could cause corruption points.

 

In this way, Death Korps of Krieg troopers would all be hellspawns, wyrds or worse.

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I should also note that the corruption section in Rogue Trader explicitly states:

"

Corruption Points (CP) operate almost exactly like Insanity
Points, except that they are gained through exposure to the
warp, dark rituals, cursed artefacts, and daemonic influence." and all descriptions refers to the "mutating touch of the Warp" and "psychoactive energies".

 

Corruption is not purely a measure of overall physical 'normality'- it is as much a measure of spiritual as of physical affliction, deriving from the malign (or sublime and beneficent, depending on your perspective!) influence of the Warp. That said, there are some exceptions in some of the game lines when dealing with Xenos- i.e. , screwing up a transgenic grafting (from Dark Heresy Radical's Handbook) can give you corruption and/or a mutation. However, most of the discussion and description of the matter focuses on the warp and Chaos as the root of and quantity measured by corruption.

 

 

The Imperium reveres the sanctity of the human frame and mistrusts and despises mutants as a matter of course, and I suspect that few members of Imperial society bother to (or have the necessary knowledge) distinguish between purely physical deformity (which itself can be quite dramatic and disturbing if one is unlucky) resulting from the exposure of an embryo to high levels of mutagens, radiation, etc. and warp-based mutations introduced by a twist of fate or high background levels of psychic energy or whatever either before or after birth.

 

If you want to give players cancers and other biological irregularities from these sorts of things, it'd make sense to track and deal with them entirely separately from corruption. If you look at the rules for things like radiation weapons*, it doesn't look like you are intended to award any corruption for radiation exposure. There are certainly some mutations/malignancies that could be used to represent the consequences thereof (and could be given out if you take took much toughness damage. whatever arbitrary threshold you want to use, from a mundane mutagenic source).

 

For the matter, I certainly would not give any for any individual act of cannibalism, horrific torture, or whatever other depravity that is done for its own sake without influence from or connection to anything bound by the Warp Of course,  if you're following (even without knowing the wider significance) a prescription or ritual in a forbidden tome, conducting it in a place touched by or ritually associated with the Warp, or crying (or thinking) out the name of a dark patron while doing so, certainly there should be a good amount of corruption in store. However, if you're doing it purely because you're simply a massive sadist/are catastrophically intoxicated/thoroughly mad/etc. I would simply award plenty of insanity instead (due to how much it would brutalize your mind and further alienate you from the rest of humanity).

 

With repeated indulgence in extreme behaviors that much the portfolio of a Chaos God I would begin to slowly award corruption regardless of context (even if you're acting with the Emperor's name on your lips) and would probably work in some opportunity for temptation or exposure to fell knowledge (as your predilections attracted the gaze of other forces).

 

 

*See Faith & Coin, Tome of Decay, or the Lathe Worlds

Edited by Andkat
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The Imperium condemns all mutation - at least officially, but it's more of a hassle to test every mutant for chaos corruption than to just kill them all and be done with it. Comic book-style mutations do occur in 40k,  if such background options as contaminated environs are to be believed.

 

I have, myself, included worlds that were so blasted and corrupted by radiation and other filth that the sewage in some places could cause corruption points.

 

In this way, Death Korps of Krieg troopers would all be hellspawns, wyrds or worse.

 

Why? Those are gained from specific rolls on the mutation table. Besides, there is nothing anywhere suggesting that Krieg would cause corruption just from exposure to its atmosphere. Not only that, but even if it did, the Death Korps with their single-digit life expectancies hardly have to worry about long-term consequences.

 

Last, but not least, how do you know there *aren't* a bunch of mutants hiding under those gas masks? Corruption points or no, if they were constantly exposed to large doses of radiation, their DNA would suffer for it and mutations would surely occur.

 

 

 

*See Faith & Coin, Tome of Decay, or the Lathe Worlds

I agree with you for the most part, but I'd rather quit playing forever than have anything to do with either of those books.

Edited by Magellan

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If not for environmental variables affecting mutation how can we explain stable mutations such as ratlings or Ogryns? No way Ogryns are purely caused by exposure to the warp, or else the Imperium wouldnt have set up breeding schemes to generate more slab-muscled, idiotic super-soldiers.
 

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If not for environmental variables affecting mutation how can we explain stable mutations such as ratlings or Ogryns? No way Ogryns are purely caused by exposure to the warp, or else the Imperium wouldnt have set up breeding schemes to generate more slab-muscled, idiotic super-soldiers.

Because there's a difference between mutation and mutation, and mutants and mutants.

From our point of view in the real world, the Ogryns came about through mutation and adaptation, and, basically, basic evolution. By our definitions, they aren't really mutants, and they aren't mutants in 40k either. They're an evolutionary branch of humanity, or, in 40k terms, abhuman.

Mutants in 40k almost invariably refer to those that have been subject to mutations caused by warp influence, or believed to have been caused by warp influence.

So while there definitely are environmental variables that affects mutation just like in the real world, this isn't represented in the game (or considered "mutation" in the setting).

More likely than not, radiation exposure won't give you additional arms or make your face grow into your abdomen. All it'll do is make you sterile and give you leukaemia. Corruption results in the former, not the latter.

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In my opinion corruption is more spiritual than physical. If you kill a innocent to rob him there is nothing wrong (well at least in corruption terms) but if you kill him in the name of khorne then you should gain corruption. So i would give corruption points from chaos activities, warp rituals, exposure to chaos energy, getting hit by a demon and so on. I don't think giving corruption for evil deeds has much sense since evil is relative term in w40k universe and corruption is not like dark side of the force.

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From our point of view in the real world, the Ogryns came about through mutation and adaptation, and, basically, basic evolution. By our definitions, they aren't really mutants, and they aren't mutants in 40k either. They're an evolutionary branch of humanity, or, in 40k terms, abhuman.

I don't know if I'd call it "basic" evolution. That sort of thing doesn't happen over the course of ~10.000 years. More like they were radically altered by exposure to warp energies and/or radiation (though I don't believe radiation-based mutations usually carry over to the next generation, so warp seems a lot more likely - but then again, comic book logic) and the abominations that resulted eventually sexed themselves into a fairly homogenous shape.

 

I suppose that could be called evolution (my next genetor will definitely write a large number of dissertations on "unnatural selection") but hardly basic. :P

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From our point of view in the real world, the Ogryns came about through mutation and adaptation, and, basically, basic evolution. By our definitions, they aren't really mutants, and they aren't mutants in 40k either. They're an evolutionary branch of humanity, or, in 40k terms, abhuman.

I don't know if I'd call it "basic" evolution. That sort of thing doesn't happen over the course of ~10.000 years. More like they were radically altered by exposure to warp energies and/or radiation (though I don't believe radiation-based mutations usually carry over to the next generation, so warp seems a lot more likely - but then again, comic book logic) and the abominations that resulted eventually sexed themselves into a fairly homogenous shape.

 

I suppose that could be called evolution (my next genetor will definitely write a large number of dissertations on "unnatural selection") but hardly basic. :P

Whatever the case, in most cases of abhumans, the warp had nothing (direct) to do with it. Ogryns, Squats, and Ratlings are all evolutionary offshoots that developed on specific planets and specific natural circumstances. They're not mutations by "modern" imperial standards (although many might surely consider them as such, simply because they aren't of the norm and the vast majority of the Imperium's populace is ignorant).

Basic evolution absolutely happen over the course of 10,000 years (or less), though, although the process might be hard-pressed to result in such large differences in such a short timespan. Evolution is really just a process of favoured reproduction and epigenetic influences. Modern life has stifled this to an extent in humans, but if these populations were cut off from the rest of humanity, odds are only a few survived and lived to evolve and repopulate their planets.

And it's likely closer to 40 000 years, anyway. Still short, from an evolutionary perspective, but potentially more than enough. Abhumans haven't evolved over the last 10 000 years, it's likely been going on since humans got there, likely in the beginning of the 2nd millennium or something.

Anyway, I'm rambling. My point was that the warp didn't create abhumans, except arguably psykers, if you consider psykers abhuman. From an objective in-universe point of view, tl;dr: evolution did it.

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40.000 years is the time that's passed between the birth of Christ and current time in 40k. Ogryns have definitely not been developing for that long.

 

I also disagree vehemently with the notion that even 40.000 years of natural evolution could turn humans into ogryns or beastmen. Not only that, but whatever the current species are considered (a classification most likely based on utility, anyway) I see no evidence that their ancestors were not violently mutated by exposure to warp or comic book radiation. Especially as natural evolution would imply that their circumstances actually selected for stupidity, as intelligence and strength are not mutually exclusive.

 

Ratlings I can actually see, however. They're just short, malnourished humans with ridiculous body hair - and we don't consider Australians to be a different species, after all.

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40.000 years is the time that's passed between the birth of Christ and current time in 40k. Ogryns have definitely not been developing for that long.

Nope. 40k counts from when man started leaving Terra, not from the birth of Christ. Unless something's changed, at least.

 

I also disagree vehemently with the notion that even 40.000 years of natural evolution could turn humans into ogryns or beastmen. Not only that, but whatever the current species are considered (a classification most likely based on utility, anyway) I see no evidence that their ancestors were not violently mutated by exposure to warp or comic book radiation. Especially as natural evolution would imply that their circumstances actually selected for stupidity, as intelligence and strength are not mutually exclusive.

If we assume that the Recent Out of Africa-theory is correct, the multitude of existing human evolutionary varieties have arisen over the last ~100 000 years, so ~40 000 years isolated on foreign planets? Short, improbable, maybe, but not impossible. But either way, the very real and very valid objections of real-world science doesn't matter overly much in this case, because as I said, from an objective in-universe point of view, abhuman are evolutionary offshoots. Stable, natural mutations.

And for Ogryns, it doesn't have to select for stupidity, it merely has to select for simple-mindedness. There are studies that suggests that Neanderthals actually had superior cognitive abilities compared to early homo sapien sapiens, but that their ponderous and calm nature led to their death/outbreeding by european tribes (which is why only whites/europeans have Neanderthal DNA).

Evolutionary, while there is nothing mutually exclusive between physical strength and intelligence, there is nothing saying that intelligence automatically wins out in a contest. Ogryns developed on barren, high-gravity prison-planets. The genetic material available likely already had a high propensity for violence, low intelligence, poor cognitive abilities, dysfunctional reward system(s) and poor decision-making skills/poor causality judgement. They were then dumped in an environment that did not allow for cultural or civilizational development, where violence and scavenging were likely favoured evolutionary traits.

 

Ratlings I can actually see, however. They're just short, malnourished humans with ridiculous body hair - and we don't consider Australians to be a different species, after all.

And inbred. Don't forget inbred.

Not Australians, but Ratlings, I mean.

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You both might be right.

 

"The Age of Terra, also sometimes called the Age of Progress in older Imperial texts, is the era of human history between the 1st and 15th Millennia (1 - 15,001 AD) when Mankind advanced from a pre-industrial Iron Age culture to become a star-spanning Fusion Age civilization. The original reason for numbering the years from this point, that it was believed to be the year of the birth of the ancient religious leader Jesus Christ, has long been forgotten by humanity, which now possesses only one religion -- a deep faith in the God-Emperor of Mankind and his Imperial Cult. During the long years of the Age of Terra, humanity came to dominate the Earth culturally and technologically. Myriad human civilizations came and went during this long span of now mostly forgotten human history. The Solar System was ultimately colonized once humanity developed the necessary technology to leave the Earth's orbit in the late 2nd Millennium and the early 3rd Millennium. Mankind colonized Mars and lived on the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune. Advanced fusion and anti-matter propulsion technology was developed that eventually allowed humanity to construct interstellar starships that could colonize other star systems. At the very end of the period in the 15th Millennium and stretching into the next era in human history, the Age of Technology, humanity began to colonize the stars using these sub-light spacecraft. At first only nearby star systems could be reached and the human colonies established on them were required to survive as independent states since they were separated from Earth by up to ten human generations' time of travel. Almost nothing of this period's events is known to current Imperial historians, though it is clear that the Emperor was alive and on Earth throughout this period, disguising his true abilities and immortal nature as he moved from identity to identity, always trying to better the lot of humanity, physically, intellectually and spiritually."

 

Anyhoot, I always believed they were evolved/mutated/natured/created by scientific means to survive their harsh environments.  Maybe not fully, but to an extent that altered their genes into a stable platform that could survive the living conditions presented to them.  Of course, from there "evolution" took over.  But that is just my two cents.  Can't really remember where I read it, or if it just made more sense to me because of the setting.  It's Warhammer 40k though, and we are just debating semantics here.

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Semantics would be debating the meaning of a word or phrase. A lot of other things in this thread are debatable, but we are most assuredly not arguing semantics. I'm arguing semantics right now, telling you the meaning of the word "semantics".

 

What you are saying about the timeline supports my point, though (although I'm not a big supporter of the 40k wiki in general - lots of unsourced fan content). The number after the M in the Imperial dating system is the number of the millenium, counted from the birth of Jesus Christ. We are presently in the year 014.M3, a.k.a. 2014, and we're in the third millenium. Unfortunately, the only source I have is: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Dating_System#.U9FO4rG62qk

 

And Fdgsfg, that's 100.000 years for a change in skin colour, versus significantly less to create an entire new species. The potential difference in intelligence between neanderthals and homo sapiens is nothing compared to the difference between humans and ogryns. Furthermore, I am not saying that intelligence would win out, only that for such a massive difference to occur, it would have to be an advantage in itself (though that still wouldn't help according to me, since I still say ten thousand years isn't nearly enough for changes that drastic).

 

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but unless I see a source directly supporting your claim, I'm going with what I see as a far more reasonable explanation - Chaos did it.

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