Lasers and Timing on tournaments

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

 

 

The question is complicated because you ARE allowed to eyeball the move, but eyeballing it is a form of measuring it. When does it stop being eyeball measuring and start being cheating measuring?

When you use something more than your eyeballs, it's not eyeballing.

 

If you look at a template lying by the side of the board you're not really using anything beyond your eyeballs.

 

Short of removing every object with a "known" size from the playing environment your standard seems more or less impossible to enforce. All a canny players needs to "cheat" (according to your definition) is foreknowledge of each template's reach when laid out on a grid of ship bases; the moving ship will always be present on its base, which would qualify as an illegal visual aid by your standards. Even if you could send the base into another dimension for the duration of dial-setting, there would be other useable markers -- asteroids, the 3x3 playing surface, etc.

 

WTF are you even talking about???

 

If you don't touch the template, you aren't using the template.  Looking at something laying off to the side, then looking at the board, is not using a tool.  If you pick up that something and try and line it up with something on the board, it is using the tool.

 

If you can judge something purely by the knowledge contained in the game state, power to you - someone pointed out recently (which I hadn't caught, personally) that if you're shy an asteroid you can (minus the nubs) guarantee a safe 4 K-turn, because the asteroid is at least 5 away from the edge.  That's using game knowledge, not tools, and is perfectly fine.

 

Seriously, this is starting to get silly.  You cannot use tools.  Your brain, in this case, does not qualify as a tool even if you normally follow the "don't use it" standard.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

WTF are you even talking about???

If you don't touch the template, you aren't using the template. Looking at something laying off to the side, then looking at the board, is not using a tool. If you pick up that something and try and line it up with something on the board, it is using the tool.

What if a player picks it up but doesn't try and line it up with something on the board? He just picks it up to get a closer look at it, never even glances at his ship while doing so. If that isn't OK (and dr4co seems to think it isn't) then how is that different than looking at it on the table? If that is OK then how close to in line with the ship does it need to be to be cheating? Edited July 1, 2014 by Forgottenlore

[Yipikayey 42]

This discussion has reached a critical amount of shitposting (including myself, now).

Edited July 1, 2014 by Yipikayey

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

WTF are you even talking about???

If you don't touch the template, you aren't using the template. Looking at something laying off to the side, then looking at the board, is not using a tool. If you pick up that something and try and line it up with something on the board, it is using the tool.

What if a player picks it up but doesn't try and line it up with something on the board? He just picks it up to get a closer look at it, never even glances at his ship while doing so. If that isn't OK (and dr4co seems to think it isn't) then how is that different than looking at it on the table? If that is OK then how close to in line with the ship does it need to be to be cheating?

 

As long as the template (hand, laser, tape measure, or proxied device) is not lined up with the ship's base so that you're using it as a visual measurement you are ok. Looking at it on the table then looking back at your ship is ok.

 

If my opponent looked at their maneuver templates, fidgeted with them, turned them over in hand, but didn't attempt to line them up with their ship's base in any way I would be ok with that. If they started using their hand/a template/proxy and visually lined it up with the base to try and figure out how they would make the move I would ask them politely to not measure with the device but with their eyes only.

 

As long as the template (or proxy) was not lined up visually with the ship's base, so a direct measurement was not taking place, it would be ok.

[Bilisknir 443]

 

 

The question is complicated because you ARE allowed to eyeball the move, but eyeballing it is a form of measuring it. When does it stop being eyeball measuring and start being cheating measuring?

When you use something more than your eyeballs, it's not eyeballing.

 

 

So anyone with glasses is cheating? They are tools that allow more than just eyeballs for measuring...

 

Ah the comedy!

 

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

 

So anyone with glasses is cheating? They are tools that allow more than just eyeballs for measuring...

 

Ah the comedy!

 

 

But if they took their glasses off and held them in front and started to estimate the distance on the board with them, what do you think I would do? I would call them on using a proxy and ask them to please not do it again. If they did do it again I would remind them that using anything other than visual acuity was not allowed when determining maneuvers and my next step would be to call over the T.O. and pitch the issue so that the player would know I was serious about the infraction and that the T.O. could also remind him with a warning that that behaviour was unacceptable. 

 

If he did it again, well, 3 strikes and you are out in my book.

[Bilisknir 443]

 

 

 

So anyone with glasses is cheating? They are tools that allow more than just eyeballs for measuring...

 

Ah the comedy!

 

 

But if they took their glasses off and held them in front and started to estimate the distance on the board with them, what do you think I would do? I would call them on using a proxy and ask them to please not do it again. If they did do it again I would remind them that using anything other than visual acuity was not allowed when determining maneuvers and my next step would be to call over the T.O. and pitch the issue so that the player would know I was serious about the infraction and that the T.O. could also remind him with a warning that that behaviour was unacceptable. 

 

If he did it again, well, 3 strikes and you are out in my book.

 

 

Aaaaaaaaand you didn't get the joke....

[Sergovan 1,440]

I'm just here to clarify the rules...

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

I think there's a difference between measuring and checking.

When you measure, you are trying to gain information and exactitude about a given uncertainty. There is a definite intention to avoid committing a future mistake.

When you check, you try to confirm if your guesses and estimations were correct or not. Those estimations refer to a past event or decision that you cannot longer change or affect.

Thus, I have no problem in allowing lasers to CHECK for something (IE: Firing arc), but I wouldn't allow them in any circumstances to MEASURE anything. I believe the exact timing when the problematic action happens is the real concern here.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Yeah there's nothing wrong with using lasers to check an arc.

However the rules are quite clear that you can only check the arc of the active ship. So what the person did in the OP was clearly against the rules, because he was checking the arc of all the ships not just the active one.

[StevenO 2,996]

It sounds to me like everyone should wear glasses to distort their vision a little (just to keep things "fair") and all the templates/rulers need to be sitting in a box when not actively in use.  Of course it should go without saying that whatever surface you play on needs to be completely free of ANY kind of marking which of course could be used to measure.

 

X-Wing is a game where the only information you do NOT have is what the dice are going to do.  The ONLY real reason for "no measuring" is to speed up play a bit.  I'm almost amazed by how many of you throw out the "fly casual" remark about how to play the game but then come out with extremely harsh interpretation on what "measuring" is which really seems to smack that idea in the face.

[VanorDM 11,599]

The ONLY real reason for "no measuring" is to speed up play a bit.

That's not really true.

If they allowed measuring then you could plot out all your moves prior to setting the dial. that would completely change the game. There's few if any table top game that let you measure anytime you want to. Because when you can do that then you remove some/much/most of the skill from the game.

Imagine if you knew the range from every ship to every ship and could try out every template before picking a dial, and then action... That would make the game become about little more then how the dice roll.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

X-Wing is a game where the only information you do NOT have is what the dice are going to do.  The ONLY real reason for "no measuring" is to speed up play a bit.  I'm almost amazed by how many of you throw out the "fly casual" remark about how to play the game but then come out with extremely harsh interpretation on what "measuring" is which really seems to smack that idea in the face.

And this is why I hate "Fly Casual".  It sounds great in theory, in practice it often becomes a "If you don't play my way you're not Flying Casual."

 

"Flying Casual" does not require that I let you cheat.  There is no "harsh definition" of measuring - you're either measuring, or you're not.  If you're looking for a fine line where sorta-measuring becomes actually measuring, and you're trying to find that line so you can sorta-measure to try and get as close to perfect information as you can without actually measuring (which would be cheating) then sorry, no casual flying for you!

 

Your first statement is rather blatantly wrong.  If you had every piece of information but what the dice would do, you would be allowed to verify that information at will, including measuring whenever you want to.  You can't do that.  So, limited information.  Trying to invent the reason for that limited information, which is not in evidence anywhere, is total BS.

 

The X-wing rules are actually pretty **** clear on what you can measure and when you can measure it.  There is specific information which is gained from taking those measurements.  If you're working that hard to find some way to get that same information without "measuring" (for some definition of measuring) then you're cheating.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

There's few if any table top game that let you measure anytime you want to.

Actually, I think almost all of them do anymore. This and Warmahordes are the only ones I can think of that don't allow pre-measuring (and WM/H is only situational). Even the warhammers, long the bastions of no premeasuring, allow it now. General game design theory had moved on to your skill as a general is what should be important, not your skill of discerning the difference between 11.5" and 12.5" from two feet away. Now, with x-wings movement system there is good reason to buck the trend, but it is the exception, IME.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Actually, I think almost all of them do anymore.

That could be it's been some time since I played anything other then X-Wing.

I've never been against it myself in most games. It never made sense to me that in 40k with the advanced armor a Space Marine had, that a laser rangefinder wasn't part of the gear.

But as you said, in X-Wing things are a bit different, with the movement system in this game, if you could plot out your moves ahead of time, and know exactly where your ship will end up, that breaks a lot of things. Same goes for deciding what action to take but being able to measure everything first.

Also with the X-Wing system you never really lose out on an action. It's not like 40k used to be anyway, where if you are off by 1/16th of an inch you lost your chance to fire.

That said some of the arguments being made here are ridiculous... Some are intended to be that, but some I think aren't.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

There were a number of people who were being very very binary. Either someone is measuring or they aren't. I was just trying to point out that "measuring" is a very ill-defined term and what one person considers measuring, someone else might not.

[Buhallin 4,563]

what one person considers measuring, someone else might not.

I don't actually believe that.

 

Anyone who starts making a distinction between what is and isn't actually measuring knows that they're trying to measure without actually "measuring".

 

The rulebook is even pretty clear about this:

 

During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

 

There no condition there about using the templates so long as you hold them at least 13.71 inches away from the table.  The templates cannot be used.  You can look, you can think, but actually using the templates is not allowed.  And just because some of the dumber arguments have gone there, I don't consider looking at the templates on the side of the table to be "using" them, but feel free to mail FFG about it for clarification.

 

I think this covers pretty much every one of the "But what if?" cases which have been presented.

[VanorDM 11,599]

There were a number of people who were being very very binary.

Sure, but I think the intention is pretty clear to most everyone. You're not allowed to measure, you're supposed to try and judge it in your head.

So anytime you start comparing something to where the ships are on the board, because 3 fingers = 2 straight, I think it's pretty clear you're trying to measure and that's not allowed. It's also as you point out a bit of a gray area, there's no clearly defined rules about what is or isn't measuring.

If you want to go purely RAW, if you had a laser that projected the templates on the table, you could do so since it isn't the template itself. But I don't think any reasonable person would let that fly.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

If you want to go purely RAW, if you had a laser that projected the templates on the table, you could do so since it isn't the template itself. But I don't think any reasonable person would let that fly.

 

I disagree with this, even on RAW.  The game space is contained, and that includes the components and tools which come in the game.  We allow certain replacements to be used (lasers instead of rules for LOS lines, acrylic templates, etc) but those replacements are considered equivalent to the components they're replacing, and still bound by the rules covering those components.  The rules say you measure range with the range ruler - you can't switch to a basic tape measure and say "I'm not measuring because I'm not using the range ruler."  Using the measuring tape at all is outside the rules, because it's not a component (or equivalent) which came in the box.

[StevenO 2,996]

 

The ONLY real reason for "no measuring" is to speed up play a bit.

That's not really true.

If they allowed measuring then you could plot out all your moves prior to setting the dial. that would completely change the game. There's few if any table top game that let you measure anytime you want to. Because when you can do that then you remove some/much/most of the skill from the game.

Imagine if you knew the range from every ship to every ship and could try out every template before picking a dial, and then action... That would make the game become about little more then how the dice roll.

 

 

I was mistake about the "total information" idea because you also don't know what your opponent will do although you should know what he could do.  Someone who would take out all the templates to figure out where anything could go would be "wasting time" but I really fail to see how some shorthand "measuring" methods are going to take any longer than staring at the board while you try to run the situation in your head.  I wouldn't advocate allowing templates to be place on the board except during movements but if the only "skill" involved in playing this game is being able to accurately predict exactly where your ships will end up maybe we should just give geometry tests instead to determine winner.

 

There were a number of people who were being very very binary. Either someone is measuring or they aren't. I was just trying to point out that "measuring" is a very ill-defined term and what one person considers measuring, someone else might not.

 

 

 

what one person considers measuring, someone else might not.

I don't actually believe that.

 

Anyone who starts making a distinction between what is and isn't actually measuring knows that they're trying to measure without actually "measuring".

 

The rulebook is even pretty clear about this:

 

During the Planning phase, players cannot use maneuver templates in order to “test” where ships will end up. Instead, they must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads.

 

There no condition there about using the templates so long as you hold them at least 13.71 inches away from the table.  The templates cannot be used.  You can look, you can think, but actually using the templates is not allowed.  And just because some of the dumber arguments have gone there, I don't consider looking at the templates on the side of the table to be "using" them, but feel free to mail FFG about it for clarification.

 

I think this covers pretty much every one of the "But what if?" cases which have been presented.

 

 

Buhallin, your view does seem to be VERY binary.  Reading your posts it seems the only way to play is to keep everything away from the board, have the templates magically appear where they belong when they are called for, and for the pieces to automatically move themselves without any other input.   ANYTHING else introduces on opportunity to "measure" even if those measurements would be crude.

 

I also find it interesting that the rules section you quote ONLY mentions not being able to use Maneuver Templates during the planning stages.  I think everyone agrees that using templates on the board at that stage is against the rules.  What I don't see in anything preventing OTHER information from being used by a player to estimate his ship's movement.

[VanorDM 11,599]

What I don't see in anything preventing OTHER information from being used by a player to estimate his ship's movement.

There's no need for such rules because it's pretty clear what the intention is. If we go with just 'you can't put the template on the table' then that means if I hold it above the table but can still measure with it, then that would be allowed.

But I don't think any reasonable person would say that's ok. So by the same token any time you try to use something as a proxie for the template you're breaking the rules.

The rule is pretty binary by nature. You're not allowed to measure before setting your dial. The method you're using to measure doesn't matter, it's the intent that matters. Which is when you come down to it, the very heart of Fly Casual. Not trying to play rules lawyer to gain an advantage.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

Buhallin, your view does seem to be VERY binary.  Reading your posts it seems the only way to play is to keep everything away from the board, have the templates magically appear where they belong when they are called for, and for the pieces to automatically move themselves without any other input.   ANYTHING else introduces on opportunity to "measure" even if those measurements would be crude.

 

I also find it interesting that the rules section you quote ONLY mentions not being able to use Maneuver Templates during the planning stages.  I think everyone agrees that using templates on the board at that stage is against the rules.  What I don't see in anything preventing OTHER information from being used by a player to estimate his ship's movement.

 

In reverse order: Someone always brings up the "It says Planning, so I can use the templates during other phases just fine, right?"  <shrug>  Play it like that if you want, tell your opponent "We're in the end phase so I can use my movement templates at will, I'm going to do some checking" and see what happens.  Done addressing that bit of silliness now.

 

For the first: yes, my view is very binary.  You say that like it's a bad thing.  And then you go off on some serious tangents.

 

"Measuring" is an act that gives you information.  That does not mean that every act that provides information is measuring.  If you can derive incidental information from legal game moves, that's perfectly fine.  If you have two ships next to each other and do the same move, that provides information.  If you know the minimum distance from an asteroid to the edge of the board is 2 range bands, that provides information.  That's all fine.

 

Measuring is the act of taking some tool - range ruler, movement template, your hand - and using it to gauge distance and position on the board.

 

The rules don't directly control the information you get, they control the actions you can take, which affects how you get that information.

 

Edit: Here's a nice example.  You have two B-wings side-by-side, and assign them both a 2-ahead.  A ship moves up in front of them.  They might clear, they might not, you risk it and move the first B-wing.  He collides.  You then activate the second B-wing, use Advanced Sensors to barrel roll first, and avoid the collision.

 

Did you measure anything?  No.  You followed the perfectly legal steps of the game, and gained information from that.  There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Buhallin

[Yipikayey 42]

If you are argueing rules, i don't see how being binary is an issue. Rules interpretations are right or wrong, there are no shades of gray in between.

 

Can you play with your friends however you want and bend/change the rules as you both accept to ? Sure, but that's hardly the debate, so then again, why is being binary an issue here?

[Parravon 5,217]

I think the rules are very clear - you can't pre-measure. It's that simple. You can guess. You can estimate. You can trust to blind Gods of Luck. But you can't pre-measure. 

Are you allowed to look at the templates while planning. I believe yes, you can. Are you allowed to pick one up and inspect it while planning. I think not. As Buhallin pointed out, "during the planning phase, players cannot use the templates". The setup diagram on page 5 has them laid out on the side of the play area within reach of all players. And that's where they should stay until they are required for moving. I don't even like the idea of having them sitting in front of you while playing. Mine sit in a pile on the side of the play area and when I'm planning and try to look at the one I want, it's invariably under the rest of them.

The guessing and estimating required builds in an aspect of pilot error that makes the game more exciting. If you get very good at estimating where your ship is going to end up after a 3-bank and a barrel roll then well done. You've played enough to get that good. How many times have we all tried a maneuver that we thought would make it, only to find it overlaps by 5mm or less? It's part of the game. Stop trying to justify cheating the system, and play the game the way it's intended.

[Krynn007 2,445]

Ok

Here's one for ya

The maneuver dial is roughly a one straight.

So setting that right in front of your ship in a way could be considered measuring?

No?