Lasers and Timing on tournaments

[Oxymandias 68]

Hi,

 

Sorry if this has been discussed before, I couldn't find the answers...

And pardon my rudimentary English, hope you get what I'm after.

 

These 2 questions came up on a local tournament some weeks ago.

 

1. Lasers...

My opponent claimed it was ok to check firing arc with a laser on all ships (not only the shooting ship) since you're not putting the range ruler on the game board (which is what the rules state).

I guess his point is that laser should be treated like eye sight, but to me that feels like a bit of rule bending....

 

2. When we apporached the end of the game I wanted to start a new and final round since there was about a minute or two left of the game time and I was under the impression that you finish a started round even after game time is over. He claimed it was bad sportmanship to try to start a new round with little time left, so we did as he wanted. (He was in the lead by about 4 points and his remaining ships severly damaged so I was obviously not totaly neutral....)

So what do you think - is the clock the only reference, or is it good sportmanship to stop the game a little early rather than start rounds with little time left? If so, how much time is ok to start a game anyway?

 

Thanks for your feedback!

[DR4CO 6,234]

1. Your opponent was flat-out cheating. You're not allowed to check the arcs of anyone but the firing ship. Whether you use the range ruler, a laser sight, or a stick, if you measure arcs you're not supposed to, you're cheating.

 

2. Again, flat-out cheating. Time was left on the clock, and the game should have continued until time was called, then ended on that round. If one player wanted to concede, or both players decided that a final round wouldn't make a difference, that's fine, but for one player to demand to end the game early because he feels that last round will be detrimental to him is again, cheating.

[Sergovan 1,440]

see DR4CO's post above.

[StevenO 2,996]

I'm conflicted on point #1.  I would say it is alright unless you are going to say a person can't even "eyeball" firing arcs and such.  The laser may be a bit more exact than that but I do not have the extreme bias against ANY form of measuring/visual aides that some people have.  FFG may restrict "measuring" but what does that always mean.

 

#2.  You have time left you should have started a new round.  If there is a question you should have asked the TO.  A "last round warning" would be given BEFORE the last round so people can try something if they need to win.  An "End Game" notice would be saying that this is your final round.  What your opponent did was cheap and if they "slow play/stall" to avoid getting in a final round I would call a TO on them; note that flying aways and breaking off engagement IS a perfectly reasonable thing to do when you have a lead and are trying to hold on to it as time expires.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I'm conflicted on point #1.  I would say it is alright unless you are going to say a person can't even "eyeball" firing arcs and such.  The laser may be a bit more exact than that but I do not have the extreme bias against ANY form of measuring/visual aides that some people have.  FFG may restrict "measuring" but what does that always mean.

 

You can always eyeball things, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

But the tool used isn't relevant - you aren't allowed to use tools.  Is measuring a ship limited only to the official range ruler?  Can I bypass the limitation on measuring range if I use my own tape measure rather than an actual range ruler?

 

There may be some question on whether the measuring restrictions apply to firing arcs, as the FAQ seems to directly say "range" in most cases.  I think most players consider arc checks as measuring, and apply the same restrictions...  and if you do, then tools/aids are out.

[shintaibane 33]

On the laser to check arcs... when did he want to use them?  After everything had moved or during the movement phase?  While it may be against the spirit (or written) rule to use a tool to measure if it is in the shooting phase what difference does it make?  If you cannot shoot at a target you can select another that IS in arc.  No advantage is really gained.

 

If he is measuring arc during movement... that is a different story.  Visually seeing an arc after I move but before my action could be the difference if a ship is in or out of arc as I may be able to boost or barrel roll to get into or out of arc.

 

Please note when I TO a tournament I would only allow the use of laser to determine if something is in arc after a player has declared a target.  Usually the players can judge but when it is close they call me over to check with my laser... its a nice one! :-)

Edited June 30, 2014 by shintaibane

[Buhallin 4,563]

On the laser to check arcs... when did he want to use them?  After everything had moved or during the movement phase?  While it may be against the spirit (or written) rule to use a tool to measure if it is in the shooting phase what difference does it make?  If you cannot shoot at a target you can select another that IS in arc.  No advantage is really gained.

 

Knowing if a ship that fires later can hit a target can provide a very real advantage in target selection.

 

Consider: A is PS 8, and B is PS 6.  A can definitely hit target X, and target Y.  B may be able to hit X, but you can't tell.  If X is a high-priority target that is likely to die (say a B-wing with 1 hull left), you'd ideally want A to hit Y, and B to kill X.  But if you're not sure that B can make that attack, you have to risk losing the extra attack in order to ensure that X dies.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

Please note when I TO a tournament I would only allow the use of laser to determine if something is in arc after a player has declared a target.  Usually the players can judge but when it is close they call me over to check with my laser... its a nice one! :-)

Also, this is incorrect...  Players may check range and arc to multiple targets before selecting one.

[Oxymandias 68]

Thanks for you input, guys!

 

My opponent was the TO, so that made arguing my case a bit difficult...

 

1. Laser

The situation was similar to Buhallins example - He was checking arcs to make sure all his ships could focus fire at the same target.

 

Personally I would rather categorize a laser as a tool rather than eyeballing, and call it illegal, but when I checked the rules they were not clear on this.

And if it would be legal to use lasers for eyeballing that would probably slow down the game a bit, especially when flying larger squads, and that's not in the spirit of the game, in my opinion.

 

2. Timing

Thanks, it sounds like we all agree on this.

(It was called out "5 minutes left", and he claimed that's also a reason we shouldn't start a new round with little time left, but if I understand you right that shouldn't matter.)

 

To really go into detail - when exactly have you begun a new round?

One could argue that the Planning phase starts as soon as the previous End phase is over and you start thinking about what maneuver to choose, but maybe you should at least place a dial by a ship to have started a new round... Or?

Edited June 30, 2014 by oxymandias

[shintaibane 33]

Ugh... the TO as an opponent is a rough one!  That would be difficult to get a somewhat unbiased ruling in both cases.

 

Sorry it went down that way.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Thanks for you input, guys!

 

My opponent was the TO, so that made arguing my case a bit difficult...

 

If the TO is playing as well they he is REQUIRED by the tourney rules to have a secondary TO who makes all the rulings for games he is involved in. If this was an official event, you could probably complain to FFG because yeah, that guy was outright cheating all over the place.

[StevenO 2,996]

TO as opponent shouldn't happen.  It is ESPECIALLY  bad when he makes a "ruling" that completely favors him; I wonder if he would have been so keen on not playing a final round if he happened to be down 12 points but with you on the ropes.  It may also be that he had additional responsibilities between rounds and could risk being tied down to a game going long; this is another reason why a TO should not be playing.

 

On the "measuring" size of things when "eyeballing" is perfectly fine is "holding my empty hands" over the board good or bad?  They're not precision measuring instruments but with a little practice I'll know about how far R3 reaches and with that can guess where templates will take me.  I'm not "measuring" with any kind of tool anymore than using my own eyes would be measuring a firing arc.

[VanorDM 11,599]

My opponent was the TO, so that made arguing my case a bit difficult...

If it were me... I'd print out this page or show it to him somehow so he can see just how wrong he is. I'd also let him know that I'd never play another one of his events if he is going to both play and make rulings, because that's a pretty massive conflict of interest.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

On the "measuring" size of things when "eyeballing" is perfectly fine is "holding my empty hands" over the board good or bad?  They're not precision measuring instruments but with a little practice I'll know about how far R3 reaches and with that can guess where templates will take me.  I'm not "measuring" with any kind of tool anymore than using my own eyes would be measuring a firing arc.

Which is why if you start holding your empty hand over the top of the board, people will get upset.

 

You can't stop people from looking at the board, but if you start using other methods to measure, you're cheating.  If you happen to know your four-finger width is exactly range 1 and use that to measure it, you're cheating.  If you pull out a string or a rubber band or a laser to check the arc, you're cheating.  If you use a tape measure, you're cheating.  If you have an ultrasonic rangefinder and use it, you're cheating.  If you gouge lines into your glasses that mark range bands, you're cheating.  If your laser projects lines at precise intervals and you use it to measure range with your eyeballs, you're cheating.  If you happen to work for the NRO and put in a quick call to your buddy at work to retask a satellite and shuffle the live imagery over to the analysts to tell you what the range is, you're cheating.

 

This really shouldn't be that hard.  You're allowed to look at the board at will.  You are not allowed to measure.  ANY tool which enhances your ability to measure beyond simple visual interpretation is taking a measurement, and is cheating.

[Oxymandias 68]

Well, regarding the laser I just didn't care to argue and although I thought it was a bad ruling I played his way since it was the same for both (and probably more in my favour since I had more ships ).

And with the end of the game - it was in no way certain I would have finished off one of his ships if I'd gotten one more round, but it was quite frustrating.

 

But I don't think his intentions were bad, he's usually very just. (Maybe he mixed things up with Warhammer that he plays more?) We live in a small town with a small X-wing community so we try to keep things friendly and fair and we let the TO/Head judge play too, with an assistant TO. Usually we work things out in a good way, I just wanted to get your opinion on these situations and they shouldn't be an issue forward.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

On the measuring thing from the other direction, are you allowed to look at the movement templates before setting your dial? Can you hold a template in your hand and look at it, then look at the board? How close does the template have to be to your ship for you to be "measuring" instead of looking? I have seen a lot of players hold templates about 2' from their ship and compare the look before deciding on their dial. How close is too close?

[Sergovan 1,440]

On the measuring thing from the other direction, are you allowed to look at the movement templates before setting your dial? Can you hold a template in your hand and look at it, then look at the board? How close does the template have to be to your ship for you to be "measuring" instead of looking? I have seen a lot of players hold templates about 2' from their ship and compare the look before deciding on their dial. How close is too close?

If the template and ship base are in line of sight to one another it is a measurement, and illegal.

[Buhallin 4,563]

On the measuring thing from the other direction, are you allowed to look at the movement templates before setting your dial? Can you hold a template in your hand and look at it, then look at the board? How close does the template have to be to your ship for you to be "measuring" instead of looking? I have seen a lot of players hold templates about 2' from their ship and compare the look before deciding on their dial. How close is too close?

I think if you have to ask "How close is too close", you're attempting to cheat.

 

If you're comparing the template and the ship, it doesn't matter whether you're doing it well (half inch from the board" or poorly (two feet from the board), you're attempting to measure.  There's no point where measuring badly suddenly becomes a legal measurement.

 

Again, this really shouldn't be that complicated.  Does some game effect require the use of your templates and/or range ruler?  If yes, do it and put it back down.  No?  Then don't touch them.  The measurement rules are pretty clear - you can't measure.  It's not "You can measure as long as you keep the template outside of a minimum safe distance".

[UnfairBanana 2,251]

Measuring is cheating. End of story.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

So if I see a player look at his templates lying off to the side of the board before he sets his dials, he's cheating?

 

What if the templates aren't lying off to the side, but are right in front of him, so that he can see both the ship and the template at the same time?

 

Does having the template in his hand change the answer? Even if he is holding the template off to the side so that he can't see both at once?

 

The question is complicated because you ARE allowed to eyeball the move, but eyeballing it is a form of measuring it. When does it stop being eyeball measuring and start being cheating measuring?

[DR4CO 6,234]

So if I see a player look at his templates lying off to the side of the board before he sets his dials, he's cheating?

 

What if the templates aren't lying off to the side, but are right in front of him, so that he can see both the ship and the template at the same time?

 

Does having the template in his hand change the answer? Even if he is holding the template off to the side so that he can't see both at once?

 

The question is complicated because you ARE allowed to eyeball the move, but eyeballing it is a form of measuring it. When does it stop being eyeball measuring and start being cheating measuring?

 

I wouldn't have a problem with people looking at maneuver templates as they lie to the side of the board. Mostly because enforcing a ban against it would, IMO, cause more trouble than it was worth (what are you going to do, ask the TO to stand there and track your opponent's eye movements?), and the argument could be made that you are not really measuring. I don't know that it would be correct, but it could be made. But touching them at all is right out, even if it's just sliding the one you want away from the others to get a better look at it.

Edited June 30, 2014 by DR4CO

[Yipikayey 42]

Probably you are totally right about he being too used to warhammer (instead of just being a cheater) for what you are telling. Just tell him about the different rules that are applied on Xwing, so he knows for the next time.

 

1 - A round in warhammer can take quite a lot, it is very unlikely to be able to play it, that´s why if the clock is close, you stop. But on Xwing a round doesn't take more than just a few minutes, specially late game.

2 - You can't pre-measure, you just check with your ship when you are going to use it, and choose its target accordingly, but you don't get to know exactly what your other ships can see/reach. You have to guess it. In warhammer, yes, you can measure everything, but not here.

 

About the Eyeballing discussion. Eyeballing is a skill, not a tool. It is as exact as your own ability allows you to guess, while the other are exact methods to know the correct answer.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Yipikayey

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

The question is complicated because you ARE allowed to eyeball the move, but eyeballing it is a form of measuring it. When does it stop being eyeball measuring and start being cheating measuring?

When you use something more than your eyeballs, it's not eyeballing.

[Gibarian 436]

 

 

The question is complicated because you ARE allowed to eyeball the move, but eyeballing it is a form of measuring it. When does it stop being eyeball measuring and start being cheating measuring?

When you use something more than your eyeballs, it's not eyeballing.

 

If you look at a template lying by the side of the board you're not really using anything beyond your eyeballs.

 

Short of removing every object with a "known" size from the playing environment your standard seems more or less impossible to enforce. All a canny players needs to "cheat" (according to your definition) is foreknowledge of each template's reach when laid out on a grid of ship bases; the moving ship will always be present on its base, which would qualify as an illegal visual aid by your standards. Even if you could send the base into another dimension for the duration of dial-setting, there would be other useable markers -- asteroids, the 3x3 playing surface, etc.

[madquest8 470]

You can't look at templates at the side of the board? Are you kidding me? Where does it say that! LOL

 

I do it all the time and I still crash into asteroids!