Rexler & Minor Explosion/Thrust-Control Fire/Munitions Failure

[PhantomFO 9,101]

Minor Explosion- Immediately roll 1 attack die. On a <hit> result, suffer 1 damage. Then flip this card face down.

Thrust Control Fire- Immediately receive 1 stress token. Then flip this card face down.

Munitions Failure- Immediately choose 1 of your secondary weapon Upgrade cards and discard it. Then flip this Damage card face down.

Would Rexler be able to use his ability to fire these effects twice? Once from a natural crit, and then again by spending his focus to turn the cards face up? Based on his rulings against Chewie, it seems like the effect would go off after the original crits are reconciled.

Edited June 30, 2014 by PhantomFO

[Smuggler 556]

Nasty, but I'd have to say yes. "An attack" includes alla the steps of the attack and that means resolving damage as well. So after performing an attack is after resolving damage.

[LemonheadPrime 88]

Oh wow, I get it now.

 

Nasty indeed

Edited June 30, 2014 by LemonheadPrime

[Lagomorphia 1,285]

No. The crits resolve after the attack.

[dvorm 1,058]

Nasty, but I'd have to say yes. "An attack" includes alla the steps of the attack and that means resolving damage as well. So after performing an attack is after resolving damage.

I'm afraid that is indeed what the rules as written say.

Dealing damage and resolving crit effects happens during the combat sequence. After that, the crit cards the OP mentioned are face down and ready to flip.

 

Nasty indeed. FFG might change that in the next FAQ.

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

Nasty, but I'd have to say yes. "An attack" includes alla the steps of the attack and that means resolving damage as well. So after performing an attack is after resolving damage.

I'm afraid that is indeed what the rules as written say.

Dealing damage and resolving crit effects happens during the combat sequence. After that, the crit cards the OP mentioned are face down and ready to flip.

Nasty indeed. FFG might change that in the next FAQ.

Okay this is just plan wrong, rexler's ability states "when you deal face down damage cards" - if you are hit with a crit you are dealt a face up damage card. The effect of the crit flips the card face down. We have already understood that "being dealt" and "flipping" a card is not the same thing. The card was not dealt face down, so Rexler cannot flip it back up. That is just idiotic.

Edit: okay it says just damage cards, but his effect only happens when they are dealt. Not anytime during the attack. So when they are dealt you can flip them up, but if they are already up then nothing happens. Then their effect flips them down.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Cptnhalfbeard

[Smuggler 556]

That is not what the card says.

"After you perform an attack that deals atleast one Damage card to the defender..."

It says nothing about the cards having to be dealt face down.

[wilsonodk 16]

That is not what the card says.

"After you perform an attack that deals atleast one Damage card to the defender..."

It says nothing about the cards having to be dealt face down.

Yes it does, when you complete the sentence… ", you may spend a focus token to flip those cards faceup."

After you perform an attack that deals at least 1 Damage card to the defender, you may spend a focus token to flip those cards faceup.

[Seanamal 116]

Nasty, but I'd have to say yes. "An attack" includes alla the steps of the attack and that means resolving damage as well. So after performing an attack is after resolving damage.

I'm afraid that is indeed what the rules as written say.

Dealing damage and resolving crit effects happens during the combat sequence. After that, the crit cards the OP mentioned are face down and ready to flip.

Nasty indeed. FFG might change that in the next FAQ.

Okay this is just plan wrong, rexler's ability states "when you deal face down damage cards" - if you are hit with a crit you are dealt a face up damage card. The effect of the crit flips the card face down. We have already understood that "being dealt" and "flipping" a card is not the same thing. The card was not dealt face down, so Rexler cannot flip it back up. That is just idiotic.

Edit: okay it says just damage cards, but his effect only happens when they are dealt. Not anytime during the attack. So when

they are dealt you can flip them up, but if they are already up then nothing happens. Then their effect flips them down.

Actually it rather specifically says AFTER an attack. As I read it what the OP suggests is indeed legal.

[dbmeboy 807]

Agreed, combo works.  The effects for critical damage are resolved when the card is dealt, and cards are dealt 1 at a time.  Rexler's ability doesn't happen until after an attack, at which time the critical effects have already flipped themselves face down.  He then meets the conditions to use his ability (it's after an attack in which damage cards were dealt) so he can spend a focus to flip them face up, resolving those effects again.

[Smuggler 556]

 

That is not what the card says.

"After you perform an attack that deals atleast one Damage card to the defender..."

It says nothing about the cards having to be dealt face down.

Yes it does, when you complete the sentence… ", you may spend a focus token to flip those cards faceup."

After you perform an attack that deals at least 1 Damage card to the defender, you may spend a focus token to flip those cards faceup.

 

It says nothing about the state the cards where in when they where dealt. It mearly states to flipe them face up. So they have to be face down when it's time to flip them, but if they where delat up or down is irrelevant.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Agreed, it does work.

Rexler says "after you preform an attack..." so that means after the whole attack process is completed. Page 16 says that face up cards are resolved as they're dealt, so that means they'd be face down after the attack which would let Rexler flip them back up, causing them to resolve again.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Concur with the "It works" crowd.

 

I really don't think it's all that terribly nasty, though, mostly because of frequency.  There are 6 crits in the deck that we're worried about here, so less than 1 in 5.  And having gotten through two full games without ever being able to trigger Brath's ability, I don't think it's exactly broken.

 

One more interesting question here: If Minor Explosion goes off and deals another damage card, does Rexlar turn that one up as well?

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

One more interesting question here: If Minor Explosion goes off and deals another damage card, does Rexlar turn that one up as well?

I don't think it would. You would have to trigger brath's ability again to flip the new damage card up and that would be a second activation in the same opportunity.

 

* made quote used for response clearer.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Sergovan

[VanorDM 11,599]

If Minor Explosion goes off and deals another damage card, does Rexlar turn that one up as well?

My first thought is no, you can only turn over cards that have been dealt as damage to the defender by Rexler...

After you perform an attack that deals at least 1 Damage card to the defender, you may spend a focus token to flip those cards faceup.

I'd tend to say that only the damage cards dealt from uncannceled <hits> would be allowed to be turned over. So any effect that caused him to be dealt more cards, but weren't from attack dice wouldn't count for him.

Plus I think this would fall under the 'one activation per trigger' rule.

[PhantomFO 9,101]

One more interesting question here: If Minor Explosion goes off and deals another damage card, does Rexlar turn that one up as well?

I don't think it would. You would have to trigger brath's ability again to flip the new damage card up and that would be a second activation in the same opportunity.

* made quote used for response clearer.

I think he's referring to the damage card dealt from a natural crit.

IE, Rexler attacks and deals one hit and one crit. The crit is a successful Minor Explosion, which deals a damage card and turns the Explosion facedown. The attack has dealt three facedown cards total. Rexler then spends a focus to turn those three cards (two from the hit, one more from the explosion) face up and forcing the defender to resolve all effects.

EDIT: I'm also inclined to think it would not work. Minor Explosion causes the defender to "suffer one damage." They are not specifically dealt a card as a result of the attack, per the rules on dealing vs suffering damage.

Edited June 30, 2014 by PhantomFO

[VanorDM 11,599]

The attack has dealt three facedown cards total.

IMO the attack has dealt 1 face down, 1 face up, with 1 face down card being dealt by the face up card. Now FFG could rule otherwise, that any damage dealt by face up cards are considered to be dealt by the attacker. But lacking such a ruling, I'd say the source of damage is the face up card not the attacker.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Let me clarify:

 

1.  Rexlar attacks, say Hit/Crit.

2.  Resolve damage, crit is Minor Explosion.  Target rolls a hit, takes another damage.  Minor Explosion turns down.

3.  Target now has 3 face-down damage cards.  Original hit (A), Minor Explosion (B), and the extra dealt by Minor Explosion ©.

4.  Rexlar triggers his ability.

 

Does C get turned up?

 

The "one per activation" doesn't apply, because the ability is only going off once.  The question is whether C counts as damage that was dealt by the attack.  I'd lean towards saying no as well, but we don't actually have a definition for what "dealt by an attack" means.  It could be all damage dealt during the attack process.

 

Just a curious question.

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

 

One more interesting question here: If Minor Explosion goes off and deals another damage card, does Rexlar turn that one up as well?

I don't think it would. You would have to trigger brath's ability again to flip the new damage card up and that would be a second activation in the same opportunity.

 

* made quote used for response clearer.

I think he's referring to the damage card dealt from a natural crit.

IE, Rexler attacks and deals one hit and one crit. The crit is a successful Minor Explosion, which deals a damage card and turns the Explosion facedown. The attack has dealt three facedown cards total. Rexler then spends a focus to turn those three cards (two from the hit, one more from the explosion) face up and forcing the defender to resolve all effects.

 

Oh, I thought Buhallin was meaning flipped it up and got the damge from the result, not got the crit first before the result was applied.

 

If Brath lands a crit that deals a damage card and then the crit flips over from resolution then any face down damage cards, assigned from Brath's attack, can be flipped face up with Brath's ability.

[Sergovan 1,440]

Say Buhallin, how come you get the copyright on explosion? lol

Edited June 30, 2014 by Sergovan

[VanorDM 11,599]

I'd lean towards saying no as well, but we don't actually have a definition for what "dealt by an attack" means.  It could be all damage dealt during the attack process.

Lacking anything from FFG I'd tend to use MtG logic, and that the source of the damage isn't just the attacker, but can be an effect triggered by the attacker.

So in the case of X-Wing, damage dealt due to uncannceled <hit> or <crit> results come from the attacker, but damage dealt due to face up cards come from the face up card.

But again I could easily see FFG ruling otherwise, that all damage dealt during that attack comes from the attacker. Until now the source simply didn't matter so there's never been a ruling. It is a good one for a FAQ though.

I'll submit this to FFG and see what they say.

Edited June 30, 2014 by VanorDM

[VanorDM 11,599]

Here's what I sent them...

Question about Face up Cards and Rexler Brath.

Here's the situation that came up on the boards, and it seems like a good one for the FAQ.

Rexlar Brath deals 2 damage to a defender. 1 Face up, 1 Face down card.

The face up card is a minor explosion, the defender rolls a dice and it is a <hit> meaning the defender draws another face down damage card.

Can Rexlar turn up the face down card that the defender drew due to the minor explosion? Does the face down card count as damage dealt by him, or is the source of that card the minor explosion?

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Say Buhallin, how come you get the copyright on explosion? lol

He must work for games workshop.

No, nevermind. He has too clear an understanding if game rules for that.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Forgottenlore

[Buhallin 4,563]

Yeah, I'd tend to go with the "directly from the attack", but crit resolution is strange, because it's obviously coming directly from the attack.

 

It can lead to some odd chains, though, that get really fuzzy.  What if Rexlar attacks Porkins, deals him a Thrust Control Fire, Jek uses his ability to remove the stress and takes a damage from it...  The chain gets a little longer and stranger, but it's still all during the attack, so...  <shrug>

[VanorDM 11,599]

but crit resolution is strange, because it's obviously coming directly from the attack.

Unless FFG says otherwise, I'm inclined to use MtG logic. The source of the damage is what ever effect that causes it. So damage cards dealt by the attack dice rolled is caused by the attacker, but cards dealt because of some other effect such as face up card or Jek's ability is caused by that not the attacker.