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Tim Huckelbery

The Making of the Cover

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I really enjoyed hearing a 40k artist's approach to the legacy of 40k art. The art for the 41st millennium is iconic and easily distinguishes the setting from other science fantasy settings. Blanche, Gallagher, and Kopinski set the tone for the first edition of Dark Heresy (as their work litters the core rulebook, Inquisitor, and Necromunda) and I'm glad to see that their influence carries over into this edition.

Also, the Eisenhorn scowl on the first draft is just priceless.

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I like the artwork but hate the final cover design. The artist's piece before adding the second part would have made a better front cover.  The black and red =I= just looks... silly.

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It's a beautiful work. It captures a lot of the creepy grandeur that I love about the earliest 40k art.

 

That being said, it's a shame that there aren't any women in the picture. About half of my usual 40k RPG gamers are women, and plenty of the acolytes and inquisitors in the published fiction are women (Swole, Kys, Bequin, Arianhrod Esw Sweydyr, etc.). It's nice when they're included.

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It's a beautiful work. It captures a lot of the creepy grandeur that I love about the earliest 40k art.

That being said, it's a shame that there aren't any women in the picture. About half of my usual 40k RPG gamers are women, and plenty of the acolytes and inquisitors in the published fiction are women (Swole, Kys, Bequin, Arianhrod Esw Sweydyr, etc.). It's nice when they're included.

Quoting this so that it appears twice in the thread- over half of the group in my last campaign were women and we definetly discussed this. Edited by Kainus
cps, Radwraith, exseraph and 2 others like this

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It's a beautiful work. It captures a lot of the creepy grandeur that I love about the earliest 40k art.

That being said, it's a shame that there aren't any women in the picture. About half of my usual 40k RPG gamers are women, and plenty of the acolytes and inquisitors in the published fiction are women (Swole, Kys, Bequin, Arianhrod Esw Sweydyr, etc.). It's nice when they're included.

Quoting this so that it appears twice in the thread- over half of the group in my last campaign were women and we definetly discussed this.

 

I actually agree with this. As much as I love the Dark creepy overtones of the painting, I also miss the darkly alluring Death cultists in the original DH. Even that kind of fantastic beauty had a terrifying quality to it!

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It's a beautiful work. It captures a lot of the creepy grandeur that I love about the earliest 40k art.

That being said, it's a shame that there aren't any women in the picture. About half of my usual 40k RPG gamers are women, and plenty of the acolytes and inquisitors in the published fiction are women (Swole, Kys, Bequin, Arianhrod Esw Sweydyr, etc.). It's nice when they're included.

Quoting this so that it appears twice in the thread- over half of the group in my last campaign were women and we definetly discussed this.

 

 

Color me surprised that someone would post something like this on this forum. My group is also half women and there was a marked improvement in art direction when we switched to FFG's EotE game.

 

I actually agree with this. As much as I love the Dark creepy overtones of the painting, I also miss the darkly alluring Death cultists in the original DH. Even that kind of fantastic beauty had a terrifying quality to it!

 

Aaaand we're back. Yes, let's include sexy women in the art so male gamers can ogle them, rather than an honest effort at inclusion.

Myrion, Nimsim, exseraph and 1 other like this

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I'd just like to see some women in the same sort of combat gear that male Acolytes wear. The art from the developer diaries so far has been very encouraging -- there was a cool picture of an old female Adept surrounded by floating scrolls, and another picture where a pair of Acolytes (male and female) were pinned down by cultists. Neither of those pictures were sexualized, which I hope is an indication of what's inside the book.

 

As an aside, the players in my first DH group were three women and one guy (and the guy joined in part because his girlfriend was one of the other players). None of them had played any RPGs before, but they took to it immediately. One of the women played a Tech-Priest and started jokingly referring to herself as "the gun whisperer," and she played the part of the emotionally detached Mechanicus perfectly. Women enjoy RPGs as much as men when they have a good first experience, and having badass but not skanky female characters in the rulebooks helps to make that first experience much more comfortable.

Edited by Covered in Weasels
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We have women in our group too, who unsurprisingly weren't too thrilled with the bondage babe cover of DH1e and who won't be too pleased with the DH2e cover either. Erasure is just as bad.

 

Aaaand we're back.

 

There's a great deal of value in these forums, but man... I wish the troglodyte population wasn't quite so loud and proud.

Edited by Simsum

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I'd just like to see some women in the same sort of combat gear that male Acolytes wear. The art from the developer diaries so far has been very encouraging -- there was a cool picture of an old female Adept surrounded by floating scrolls, and another picture where a pair of Acolytes (male and female) were pinned down by cultists. Neither of those pictures were sexualized, which I hope is an indication of what's inside the book.

 

As an aside, the players in my first DH group were three women and one guy (and the guy joined in part because his girlfriend was one of the other players). None of them had played any RPGs before, but they took to it immediately. One of the women played a Tech-Priest and started jokingly referring to herself as "the gun whisperer," and she played the part of the emotionally detached Mechanicus perfectly. Women enjoy RPGs as much as men when they have a good first experience, and having badass but not skanky female characters in the rulebooks helps to make that first experience much more comfortable.

 

This is one of the reasons why I'm really pleased that the 40kRPGs exist- it's such a fantastic setting, but the community around the war game is very male-oriented. Whenever my female players talk about 40k to any wargamers, they feel like they're talking about a completely different universe.

 

Honestly, I've pre-ordered the rulebook and the GM screen for the sole sake of having the art. It's very unlikely that I'll run it, but I feel like I'll be getting an updated copy of Emperor's Will with a bit of Eisenhorn thrown in for good measure.

 

There's a great deal of value in these forums, but man... I wish the troglodyte population wasn't quite so loud and proud.

 

. We're not actually that bad- you should check out the European League of Legends board sometime. 

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It's a beautiful work. It captures a lot of the creepy grandeur that I love about the earliest 40k art.

That being said, it's a shame that there aren't any women in the picture. About half of my usual 40k RPG gamers are women, and plenty of the acolytes and inquisitors in the published fiction are women (Swole, Kys, Bequin, Arianhrod Esw Sweydyr, etc.). It's nice when they're included.

Quoting this so that it appears twice in the thread- over half of the group in my last campaign were women and we definetly discussed this.

 

 

Color me surprised that someone would post something like this on this forum. My group is also half women and there was a marked improvement in art direction when we switched to FFG's EotE game.

 

I actually agree with this. As much as I love the Dark creepy overtones of the painting, I also miss the darkly alluring Death cultists in the original DH. Even that kind of fantastic beauty had a terrifying quality to it!

 

Aaaand we're back. Yes, let's include sexy women in the art so male gamers can ogle them, rather than an honest effort at inclusion.

 

And I wish some people would stop trying to turn a dark fantasy game into an excersize in political correctness! There are also women in Powered armor (Battle sisters). Female inquisitors of varying age and appearance (In Various books), Female guardsmen in armor that prevents any sort Gender recognition etc. I also remember a particular picture of a cybernetically imprisoned naked male figure with some impressive proportions. Was this sexist too? You've trolled this line before CPS and it was just as tiresome then! You know **** well that I was commenting on an appreciation of artwork rather than disrespecting an entire gender! There are women out there (some of them gamers) who would appreciate that picture as much as I did! Much of the interest in dark fantasy for many comes from it's somewhat disturbing yet oddly intrigueing overtones! No specific Gender is specifically targeted yet certain memes to both genders are! Remember, The death cult assassin is one of the deadliest members of the Inquisitor's Retinue in TT. The fact that she is made to appear Lithe and Graceful yet beautifully lethal is meant to invoke art to which she aspires. For you to reduce this to some fem-nazi anti-male trope means that YOU are the one denigrating the character and the other players of the game!

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And I wish some people would stop trying to turn a dark fantasy game into an excersize in political correctness! There are also women in Powered armor (Battle sisters). Female inquisitors of varying age and appearance (In Various books), Female guardsmen in armor that prevents any sort Gender recognition etc. I also remember a particular picture of a cybernetically imprisoned naked male figure with some impressive proportions. Was this sexist too? You've trolled this line before CPS and it was just as tiresome then! You know **** well that I was commenting on an appreciation of artwork rather than disrespecting an entire gender! There are women out there (some of them gamers) who would appreciate that picture as much as I did! Much of the interest in dark fantasy for many comes from it's somewhat disturbing yet oddly intrigueing overtones! No specific Gender is specifically targeted yet certain memes to both genders are! Remember, The death cult assassin is one of the deadliest members of the Inquisitor's Retinue in TT. The fact that she is made to appear Lithe and Graceful yet beautifully lethal is meant to invoke art to which she aspires. For you to reduce this to some fem-nazi anti-male trope means that YOU are the one denigrating the character and the other players of the game!

 

 

Did you really just use the worst example of cheesecake in 40k art to argue that the portrayal of women in 40k art has no issues?

 

Here's a hint: if you unironically think "feminazi" is a thing, that "PC run amok" is a real problem, or that the portrayal of women in nerd culture isn't a problem, you're probably a sexist. And that's not denigration - denigration implies an unfair characterization. Your words speak volumes about you.

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And I wish some people would stop trying to turn a dark fantasy game into an excersize in political correctness! There are also women in Powered armor (Battle sisters). Female inquisitors of varying age and appearance (In Various books), Female guardsmen in armor that prevents any sort Gender recognition etc. I also remember a particular picture of a cybernetically imprisoned naked male figure with some impressive proportions. Was this sexist too? You've trolled this line before CPS and it was just as tiresome then! You know **** well that I was commenting on an appreciation of artwork rather than disrespecting an entire gender! There are women out there (some of them gamers) who would appreciate that picture as much as I did! Much of the interest in dark fantasy for many comes from it's somewhat disturbing yet oddly intrigueing overtones! No specific Gender is specifically targeted yet certain memes to both genders are! Remember, The death cult assassin is one of the deadliest members of the Inquisitor's Retinue in TT. The fact that she is made to appear Lithe and Graceful yet beautifully lethal is meant to invoke art to which she aspires. For you to reduce this to some fem-nazi anti-male trope means that YOU are the one denigrating the character and the other players of the game!

 

Don't know why you bother.  Cps is a lost cause and you should do yourself a favor by blocking him.  When enough people finally do that cps will change his ways, or just leave to troll some other site.  All the people that like cps's response are getting block too.  I don't need to deal with social justice warriors that huff and puff in the internet while they do jack **** to help real women in real life.  Seriously cps is a slacker that is using the social justice crusade to make himself feel better.  There is no reason to deal with him.

Edited by Snowman0147
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And I wish some people would stop trying to turn a dark fantasy game into an excersize in political correctness! There are also women in Powered armor (Battle sisters). Female inquisitors of varying age and appearance (In Various books), Female guardsmen in armor that prevents any sort Gender recognition etc. I also remember a particular picture of a cybernetically imprisoned naked male figure with some impressive proportions. Was this sexist too? You've trolled this line before CPS and it was just as tiresome then! You know **** well that I was commenting on an appreciation of artwork rather than disrespecting an entire gender! There are women out there (some of them gamers) who would appreciate that picture as much as I did! Much of the interest in dark fantasy for many comes from it's somewhat disturbing yet oddly intrigueing overtones! No specific Gender is specifically targeted yet certain memes to both genders are! Remember, The death cult assassin is one of the deadliest members of the Inquisitor's Retinue in TT. The fact that she is made to appear Lithe and Graceful yet beautifully lethal is meant to invoke art to which she aspires. For you to reduce this to some fem-nazi anti-male trope means that YOU are the one denigrating the character and the other players of the game!

 

Don't know why you bother.  Cps is a lost cause and you should do yourself a favor by blocking him.  When enough people finally do that cps will change his ways, or just leave to troll some other site.  All the people that like cps's response are getting block too.  I don't need to deal with social justice warriors that huff and puff in the internet while they do jack **** to help real women in real life.  Seriously cps is a slacker that is using the social justice crusade to make himself feel better.  There is no reason to deal with him.

 

Wise words snowman and you're right! I don't know why I bother! Just sometimes this manufactured outrage stuff really tee's me off! It detracts from a legitimate conversation and belittles any attempt at a rational discussion! I don't know what's worse; believing that someone would willingly derail any conversation he's in to that crap or the utterly inane thought that he might actually believe it!

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And in answer to Snowman's; I have wisdom regretfully chosen to block an annoying little troll. I hate doing it as I value freedom of expression but I've had enough. I invite any who agree with me to do the same!

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All the people that like cps's response are getting block too. 

 

That's enough of a reason for me to like it. But seriously, although we've come a long way in the RPG industry towards portraying women in a respectful light, Games Workshop has some catch-up to do. If you're interested in this, I would recommend checking out this tumblr page (http://equalgaming.tumblr.com/). Even if you may not entirely agree, it raises some important points.

To be fair, though, Only War was a step in the right direction and I'm becoming increasingly confident in FFG's art direction for the 40k RPG line. I hope DH2e will put another feather in their cap. 

 

On another note, when are we going to see another preview of the rulebook? It's been a couple of weeks.

 

EDIT: I've  been on a bit of a Dazai and Mishima binge lately, so I just wanted to say that, while I entirely respect your decision to have gender identity tied to aesthetics, I think that your beliefs are outdated- Not wrong, just wilting. The over-sexualization is another matter entirely. Also, using the term "feminazi" will only hurt any of your arguments about gender and is typically considered very offensive- just putting that out there. 

Edited by Kainus
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Here is the thing though Kainus.  That lack of women representation is curing itself as more women join the hobby and start making their own games.  So eventually the problem will go away and that is a good thing. 

 

What you can't do and what I find ethically wrong is to shove down the political correctness down people's throats.  Then try to shame those that refuse to swallow.  That bull that cps is doing isn't going to help anyone.  If any thing it will make more enemies that will slow down progress.

 

Not to mention we shouldn't be going on a campaign to remove images of sexy women from gaming.  There is a place for that and frankly Radwraith is right.  There are women out there that do like to see images of sexy women.  Why do we got to **** them over?

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You see? This is what a rational discussion looks like. Kainus, I respect your point and would normally agree. I responded in the Pejorative to cps post because of his overtly insulting attack. Perhaps not great on my part but I'm human too (I think! :rolleyes:

 

This moves on to Snowman's point and is why I ended up taking his advice. Attacks like the one's Cps uses only draw battle lines and force people to fight over them. This is counterproductive and only serves to widen a divide that is closing on it's own naturally. As has been stated before, this is a good thing! There is nothing wrong with a little bit of 'sexy' as long is it is a part of, and not the whole of the overall experience! Does anyone really think that Conan the Barbarian is an accurate depiction of the ancient Cimmerians? (Yes they did actually exist!) Of course not! He was a fantasy hero! The same can be said of the Blood cult assassin. I have a hard time seeing how she is constantly compared to one of the more base forms of Porn! (For one, she is normally depicted fully clothed!) She more reminds me of Trinity from the Matrix series. Was that derogatory? I certainly don't think so! Was she extremely sexy while being over top badass? Certainly! That's what the whole movie was going for after all! But that wasn't just her. It was the entire cast, male and female.

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The covers & pictures are chosen for the majority of the customer base.

Thats how business is done.

 

As I am concerned, I liked both the old and the new DH cover.

Edited by GauntZero

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Not to mention we shouldn't be going on a campaign to remove images of sexy women from gaming.  There is a place for that and frankly Radwraith is right.  There are women out there that do like to see images of sexy women.  Why do we got to **** them over?

 

If we want women to play the game, and it sounds like we all do, the game need to show the sort of women in-universe who gamers might want to be (not just look at, but be). For some, yeah, that's scantily-clad death cult assassins. For others, it's Inquisitors in carapace, or Adepta Sororitas in power armor, or psykers in robes and lightning bolts.

 

The point is, this cover doesn't do much for any of them.

 

I do think that things are getting better, but I also think that they could get worse if we don't point stuff like this out. Inclusion matters.

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I agree with you exseraph! I'm fine with pointing out the lack of women on the cover! In fact, that's what I commented on to begin with! How they are portrayed is simply a question of style! But someone goes on a personal attack laden crusade over someone who may not agree with them, that just does not help anything!

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Thanks, Radwraith.

 

I'd argue that how women are depicted is more than a matter of style - if women are depicted as pinups and not as potential characters, that's a big problem too. But the past covers have - in my opinion - done fairly well at including female characters, so it's disappointing to be taking a step back.

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True again! But the "pin up" girl that seems to cause the most (misplaced IMO) rage IS a character! She is an Assassin! This is still a core class at least as recently as the DH2 beta! And I also agree that it's a real shame that she is not depicted on the new cover. I hope her presence was not sacrificed on some misbegotten alter of "political correctness".

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I agree to it to a point.  Inclusion for inclusion sake can be bad in its own way.  This is by the a guy who dun his female npcs with practical armor for decades while only a few female npcs not so much.  If your adding women because you want to I am all for it.  If your adding women because you feel pressured and forced to do that there is a problem.  You want people to want to include other people in the covers because the moment they are no longer force to you can bet your ass they won't.  Make friends, but avoid making enemies.

 

Besides I am pretty sure when Fantasy Flight look at covers they were not even thinking about this.  They probably went, "Oh that is cool art and it does give off that dark heresy feel.  Lets make that the cover."  I highly doubt they did it to hurt anyone at all.

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