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Bizarre Tournament Behaviour

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How is the topic of broken ships actually being discussed?  It sounds completely stupid and completely ridiculous.  FFG wants you to buy their products, hence the rule for having the actual model.  Secondary to that, is that your model must be identifiable to what the ship originally was intended to be, to avoid any confusion during a game.

 

People modify their ships all the time.  I've seen YTs with the cockpit in a completely different location.  That model is completely allowed during tournament play, as long as the TO and everyone knows its a YT, and not something else.  A broken ship should be treated no differently than a modified ship.  As long as everyone knows it's an Xwing or a Tie fighter, or a Shuttle, or whatever the hell it started life as.

 

The only situation that I can really see confusion occuring with a broken model, is if someone is fielding a Tie fighter with both it's wings broken off, and a tie interceptor with both it's wings broken off.  It would be very hard to tell which is which.  Short of that, no one should struggle to determine what model is what.  

 

As long as FFG is going to allow modified models, and they should allow modified models, broken models should get the same leeway as modified ones.

 

If a TO or an opponent gives you hell about a broken model, just tell them you modified it.

 

I seriously have trouble believing that anyone thinks it's ok to DQ someone because a piece broke off their ship, especially when there are any number of repaints and rebuilds of models out there that look less like the original than the original with a piece that's broken off.  

 

Come on guys. 

Where do you see that modified models are permitted in tournament play? The text from the Tournament Rules states "The size and shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way." I take this to mean that while you can paint them, you cannot otherwise modify them or they are technically not permitted.

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How is the topic of broken ships actually being discussed?  It sounds completely stupid and completely ridiculous.  FFG wants you to buy their products, hence the rule for having the actual model.  Secondary to that, is that your model must be identifiable to what the ship originally was intended to be, to avoid any confusion during a game.

 

People modify their ships all the time.  I've seen YTs with the cockpit in a completely different location.  That model is completely allowed during tournament play, as long as the TO and everyone knows its a YT, and not something else.  A broken ship should be treated no differently than a modified ship.  As long as everyone knows it's an Xwing or a Tie fighter, or a Shuttle, or whatever the hell it started life as.

 

The only situation that I can really see confusion occuring with a broken model, is if someone is fielding a Tie fighter with both it's wings broken off, and a tie interceptor with both it's wings broken off.  It would be very hard to tell which is which.  Short of that, no one should struggle to determine what model is what.  

 

As long as FFG is going to allow modified models, and they should allow modified models, broken models should get the same leeway as modified ones.

 

If a TO or an opponent gives you hell about a broken model, just tell them you modified it.

 

I seriously have trouble believing that anyone thinks it's ok to DQ someone because a piece broke off their ship, especially when there are any number of repaints and rebuilds of models out there that look less like the original than the original with a piece that's broken off.  

 

Come on guys.

Where do you see that modified models are permitted in tournament play? The text from the Tournament Rules states "The size and shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way." I take this to mean that while you can paint them, you cannot otherwise modify them or they are technically not permitted.
Largely because they pop up in tournament play all the time. The rule is meant to nullify any deception, not to ban your B-Wing that your 6 year old neighbor broke the bottom gun off of.

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Ok, for everyone's benefit here are the Modification Rules in the X-Wing Tournament Rules provided by FFG:

"Component Modifications
Players are welcome and encouraged to personalize their squads according to
the following rules. The TO is the final authority on any component’s eligibility
in the tournament. If a component is ruled ineligible and the player does not
have a replacement for it, that player is disqualified from the tournament
.

Ship models may be painted as desired as long as the alterations are not
offensive and do not adversely affect another player’s experience. The size and
shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way.

Ship bases cannot be modified to alter their size or shape. Weight may be
added to a ship base if it does not alter the shape of the base.
Ship pegs (including the connecting pegs affixed to ship models) may be modified or
replaced as desired so long as the alterations are not offensive and do not
adversely affect another player’s experience.

Cards must remain unaltered, though they may be sleeved for protection.
Sleeves for Damage cards must be identical and unaltered.
Players may mark
their tokens and their maneuver dials to indicate ownership as long as the
function of the component is not compromised. However, players should be
careful not to mark the backs of their maneuver dials in an asymmetrical way,
or in any way that may indicate to their opponents what maneuvers they have
selected!
During tournament play, each player is required to use components included
in official X-Wing
products with the exception of third party maneuver templates, tokens , and range rulers,

the use of which is addressed below.
Ship, base, and card proxies are not allowed.
Asteroids and other obstacles
may not be modified in any way. Custom “setup” templates designed to aid
players in ship deployment are not allowed. However, players may use their
range rulers and maneuver templates to help them set up formations during
deployment.

Players cannot bring their own playmats to play on instead of the play
surfaces provided by the TO. A TO may borrow playmats from players ahead
of time, but they must be randomized to ensure fairness.
Each ship in play
must remain attached to its base. If two or more models in play could
potentially touch, causing conflict with movement or placement of ships (e.g.
two Millennium Falcon ships are placed with their bases touching), players
must adjust the number of plastic pegs to increase or decrease height until
the ship models are not touching. Under no circumstances can a player
continue his turn while a ship model is removed from its base.
"

 

I've have made bold the pieces relevant to this discussion. Right off the bat we see the ineligible components section and the means to solve it as a TO. It's harsh but it is the rules.

 

 

People modify their ships all the time.  I've seen YTs with the cockpit in a completely different location.  That model is completely allowed during tournament play, as long as the TO and everyone knows its a YT, and not something else.  A broken ship should be treated no differently than a modified ship.  As long as everyone knows it's an Xwing or a Tie fighter, or a Shuttle, or whatever the hell it started life as.


As long as FFG is going to allow modified models, and they should allow modified models, broken models should get the same leeway as modified ones.

 

Rinehart, you argument dies in a misunderstanding of the rules for tournament play. These ships that get cut up and stitched back together are not legal in Tournament play at all according to this from the document "The size and
shape of a ship model cannot be modified in any way". You did however have the right look at this with this line "A broken ship should be treated no differently than a modified ship" and thus both are illegal for play.

 

 

 He would just have to make due,and use a proxy ship or something

The rules state that you must not have broken ships. But that applies to starting out with broken ships.

 

Proxies are expressly forbidden in Tournament play and a TO should never allow it. The case for what we are talking about is a ship that was broken from it's stand and the player was continuing to play without a ship on its base. The rules are very clear on this matter and it's not exclusive to just the start of an event "Under no circumstances can a player
continue his turn while a ship model is removed from its base." no grey area there at all. The rules even say to act more harshly then I would expect.

 

Honestly, if I broke one of my opponent's ships, I'd look to purchase a replacement for them right then or give them one of my own (if that was acceptable to them). It would suck to be me, but I should be more careful. I would expect a TO to request that exact action. Same principle if I accidently run into their car, I pay to make it right.

 

My opponent should not be DQ'ed because I destroyed their miniatures. That goes against the principle of Fly Casual and what's right and fair.

 

I think your a good sport and a good person to correct the mistake you've made. I would also do the same exeact thing if I had damaged another players ship. A TO can not force a player to replace a ship they damaged of another players squad. The TO has no authority to do such a thing. Now if the agreement reaches levels between the two players to the point of a fight both players would be removed. 

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I'm pretty sure that the official rules are as harsh as they are due to FFG wanting to avoid any sort of conflict, though they do seem unnecessarily anal at times. For instance:

 

'Each ship in play must remain attached to its base. If two or more models in play could potentially touch, causing conflict with movement or placement of ships (e.g. two Millennium Falcon ships are placed with their bases touching), players must adjust the number of plastic pegs to increase or decrease height until the ship models are not touching. Under no circumstances can a player continue his turn while a ship model is removed from its base."

 

The above is just ridiculous, the game cannot continue if a ship is removed from its base. Sometimes the best, most sensible and practical thing to do is remove the damned ship for a short moment!

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While this did not occur at a tournament per se, it is bizarre behavior. At my local game store they did a demo for x wing, after a one on one battle (my first time playing x wing) we had a large three on three player skirmish. I was assigned two y wings with ion turrets. My opponent who was more experienced than me had two tie advances including Vader. I was able to use repeated ion turret attacks to force Vader slowly off the board. My opponent, who was a real grognard, has one of the ugliest **** fits I've seen and proceeds to search through his upgrade deck to find his ion turret cards and tear them up into little pieces.

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let me throw this at you guys and gals

 

at my local tournament shop, there is a kid thats been playing this game at least as long as me, if not longer.

 

he constantly forgets to do actions, shoot, and resolve cards. he also constantly moves his ships when placing the movement templates next to them, leading to his ship avoiding a collision at times.

 

i stopped the freindly game rutine with him after the 2nd time i played him. if he forgets something, he is SOL with me.

 

that being said, everyone else there is great about letting you take shots you forgot to or even actions. (except this kids father) in general its a great atmosphere, but others have disscussed their issues with this kid also.

 

am i wrong to grant others a muligan and not this kid?

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let me throw this at you guys and gals

 

at my local tournament shop, there is a kid thats been playing this game at least as long as me, if not longer.

 

he constantly forgets to do actions, shoot, and resolve cards. he also constantly moves his ships when placing the movement templates next to them, leading to his ship avoiding a collision at times.

 

i stopped the freindly game rutine with him after the 2nd time i played him. if he forgets something, he is SOL with me.

 

that being said, everyone else there is great about letting you take shots you forgot to or even actions. (except this kids father) in general its a great atmosphere, but others have disscussed their issues with this kid also.

 

am i wrong to grant others a muligan and not this kid?

 

I definitely think even in non-competitive play that there's a limit to tolerating that sort of thing. Every once in a while, yeah, someone's going to make a mistake, and if there aren't real stakes involved I'll let it slide. Hell, even at regionals I nearly lost my third game because I let someone go back and take his focus action on his last ship after I did enough damage to kill him without it.

 

The situation you're describing though? No go on that. If someone is demonstrating a persistent issue with 'forgetting' to act, and going back, or especially the ship bumping, then yeah there's a point where I wouldn't let that slide even in friendly play. I've not had that problem locally in X-wing but I've seen the type in 40k, fudging movement to make or break a charge or shooting range, etc. 

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I worked at a Walmart in Oregon for a good time and we had a person urinate in the health and beauty section every day at different times through out the month he did it.

I say that to add that some people are weird and act weird and some people are a little messed up in the head. I am sure that within Tournys you have the same.

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let me throw this at you guys and gals

 

at my local tournament shop, there is a kid thats been playing this game at least as long as me, if not longer.

 

he constantly forgets to do actions, shoot, and resolve cards. he also constantly moves his ships when placing the movement templates next to them, leading to his ship avoiding a collision at times.

 

i stopped the freindly game rutine with him after the 2nd time i played him. if he forgets something, he is SOL with me.

 

that being said, everyone else there is great about letting you take shots you forgot to or even actions. (except this kids father) in general its a great atmosphere, but others have disscussed their issues with this kid also.

 

am i wrong to grant others a muligan and not this kid?

In a friendly game I would find a way to say

Move, action , shoot, Move, action , shoot.

A couple of times.

Now in a Tourny I tend to let people get away with things a bit more or I generally let people have int but if it was three turns in a way they wanted to go back and change something I would draw the line there.

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I worked at a Walmart in Oregon for a good time and we had a person urinate in the health and beauty section every day at different times through out the month he did it.

I say that to add that some people are weird and act weird and some people are a little messed up in the head. I am sure that within Tournys you have the same.

 

Well, it is Oregon...

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Ive been meaning to post a similar experience.  It was the Alpha event and i was playing a kid (12ish or so).  I had  stressed his ship and the very next turn he did a k-turn.  I told him "you know I'm supposed to move your ship how i see fit" and he quickly adjusted to a green maneuver.  I could have flown his ship off the board and went on with playing the game. If i had lost that game I would be really mad with myself.  As such I was mad at the situation that it put me in.  Be a jerk and send his ship off the board?  Or let him keep it and let that ship kill me?  After that I'm leaning towards the "I'm playing these games as close to right as possible".  I can't be expected to keep up with my actions and yours.  I can't be expected to remember if you focused, spent it, and now are claiming you didn't take a focus.  I'm playing my game, your playing yours.  Friendly games, sure. Tournaments.  Sorry.  That's what they are for.  A more advanced gaming experience.  

Edited by Nickotine42

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Ive been meaning to post a similar experience.  It was the Alpha event and i was playing a kid (12ish or so).  I had  stressed his ship and the very next turn he did a k-turn.  I told him "you know I'm supposed to move your ship how i see fit" and he quickly adjusted to a green maneuver.  I could have flown his ship off the board and went on with playing the game. If i had lost that game I would be really mad with myself.  As such I was mad at the situation that it put me in.  Be a jerk and send his ship off the board?  Or let him keep it and let that ship kill me?  After that I'm leaning towards the "I'm playing these games as close to right as possible".  I can't be expected to keep up with my actions and yours.  I can't be expected to remember if you focused, spent it, and now are claiming you didn't take a focus.  I'm playing my game, your playing yours.  Friendly games, sure. Tournaments.  Sorry.  That's what they are for.  Are more advanced gaming experience.  

 

You're not being a jerk for playing by the rules. If you let something like that slip, odds are pretty good the kid won't learn his lesson. Fly his ship off the board and I bet he won't make that mistake again. You'd be doing him a favor in the long run.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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Picked the 4 red straight on the Y dial instead of the 4K during my AoIA event. I tell you I will never do that again. :)

You must of been pretty desperate to even want to do a 4k turn.... :P (generally with the ion cannon, there is no need to do a kturn, but sometimes it is needed...)

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let me throw this at you guys and gals

at my local tournament shop, there is a kid thats been playing this game at least as long as me, if not longer.

he constantly forgets to do actions, shoot, and resolve cards. he also constantly moves his ships when placing the movement templates next to them, leading to his ship avoiding a collision at times.

i stopped the freindly game rutine with him after the 2nd time i played him. if he forgets something, he is SOL with me.

that being said, everyone else there is great about letting you take shots you forgot to or even actions. (except this kids father) in general its a great atmosphere, but others have disscussed their issues with this kid also.

am i wrong to grant others a muligan and not this kid?

It is truly up to you on every single instants of "Missed Opportunities" whether you let the player have it or not. I tend to give my opponent a fair warning at the beginning of the match as to how I expect the rules to be followed. If they miss once in that very first meaningless turn I let them have it and issue a second warning. After that first move is over the war is in full swing and you and myself have to live with mistakes. I have forgotten from time to time my actions, I often don't even mention it to my opponent to see if he will let me have it. I feel if I point out I forgot to focus it paints a target on that ship as it's valuable to focus fire.

As far as sometimes allowing it and sometimes not is a hard call. I would recommend finding a pattern to how you handle it and stay that way. People will come to know what you expect and you'll have less issues with it.

Ive been meaning to post a similar experience. It was the Alpha event and i was playing a kid (12ish or so). I had stressed his ship and the very next turn he did a k-turn. I told him "you know I'm supposed to move your ship how i see fit" and he quickly adjusted to a green maneuver. I could have flown his ship off the board and went on with playing the game. If i had lost that game I would be really mad with myself. As such I was mad at the situation that it put me in. Be a jerk and send his ship off the board? Or let him keep it and let that ship kill me? After that I'm leaning towards the "I'm playing these games as close to right as possible". I can't be expected to keep up with my actions and yours. I can't be expected to remember if you focused, spent it, and now are claiming you didn't take a focus. I'm playing my game, your playing yours. Friendly games, sure. Tournaments. Sorry. That's what they are for. Are more advanced gaming experience.

You're not being a jerk for playing by the rules. If you let something like that slip, odds are pretty good the kid won't learn his lesson. Fly his ship off the board and I bet he won't make that mistake again. You'd be doing him a favor in the long run.

WonderWAAAGH, has a great point here. There is not better lesson to learn from your mistakes then a lose.

Edited by Osoroshii

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Picked the 4 red straight on the Y dial instead of the 4K during my AoIA event. I tell you I will never do that again. :)

You must of been pretty desperate to even want to do a 4k turn.... :P (generally with the ion cannon, there is no need to do a kturn, but sometimes it is needed...)

 

I went off the board with my next move so you could say it was a desperation move.

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Last week I put in a four forward with a Firespray I thought had k turned, but hadn't. Flew him DEEP into the unknown regions off the board. First time I've ever done that in a game. Firesprays are confusing with that rear arc!

Edit: that lost the game for me too as he was near full health and my other two ships didn't stand up to Chewie with 3PO. Won't do that ever again. I got cocky, kid.

Edited by swimmingordy

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The most common type of questionable play I have seen is people who clearly demonstrate a firm grasp of the rules subtleties when it is in their favor, and then conveniently forget them or argue otherwise when it is not. When it happens once or twice, that might just be a misunderstanding - when it becomes a pattern and multiple players in a tournament take note, it's clearly a problem. I hope it doesn't happen at the Regional I am TOing this weekend, but it will have volunteers (and myself) walking and observing throughout (and keeping an eye on known perpetrators :)). I keep a copy of the FAQ and all rules docs with me when I go to tourneys, and will happily reference them at any point to politely point out the correct read on a particular situation.

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At my local Imdar Alpha tourney, I played a round where my opponent tried to make a red maneuver while stressed.  That was the first time that had happened in a game I was playing and I had to stop and really think about what I was going to do.  My opponent was obviously new to the game but was I going to "be nice" and let him "re-maneuver" or follow the rules and set the dial myself?  Although conflicted, I called for the TO and ended up setting the maneuver dial so that the ship became totally useless for a couple of turns, but I did not run the ship off the board - which I could have done.  I considered it a good middle ground move where my opponent got to learn the red maneuver/stress rule and I didn't take full advantage of the situation.  So, was too harsh considering or the right move?  Would you have responded the same way?

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The most common type of questionable play I have seen is people who clearly demonstrate a firm grasp of the rules subtleties when it is in their favor, and then conveniently forget them or argue otherwise when it is not. When it happens once or twice, that might just be a misunderstanding - when it becomes a pattern and multiple players in a tournament take note, it's clearly a problem. I hope it doesn't happen at the Regional I am TOing this weekend, but it will have volunteers (and myself) walking and observing throughout (and keeping an eye on known perpetrators :)). I keep a copy of the FAQ and all rules docs with me when I go to tourneys, and will happily reference them at any point to politely point out the correct read on a particular situation.

From one TO to another try not to bring a bias with you even if the player is known to be shady. Judge each action on its own merits and ignor past tournaments shenanigans.

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@Grumpymuffin,

Like all ethics questions, it is situational. With a newb, a kid or in a casual setting, I will usually allow a remanuver or set their dial as you did, bad but not dead. In a tourney or with someone who really ought to know better, or if I think they were trying to get away with something, I get them a class in the burned hand academy. I find they are the best for many varied lessons.

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I worked at a Walmart in Oregon for a good time and we had a person urinate in the health and beauty section every day at different times through out the month he did it.

I say that to add that some people are weird and act weird and some people are a little messed up in the head. I am sure that within Tournys you have the same.

 

 

Sure haven't had anyone show up yet and urinate on the tournament.  Not yet anyway....

 

However one LGS did have someone stroll up and urinate in the garbage can out front.  About 5 feet away from a little girl sitting at a table coloring.  This event was not well received.  He has not been back.

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Ive been meaning to post a similar experience.  It was the Alpha event and i was playing a kid (12ish or so).  I had  stressed his ship and the very next turn he did a k-turn.  I told him "you know I'm supposed to move your ship how i see fit" and he quickly adjusted to a green maneuver.  I could have flown his ship off the board and went on with playing the game. If i had lost that game I would be really mad with myself.  As such I was mad at the situation that it put me in.  Be a jerk and send his ship off the board?  Or let him keep it and let that ship kill me?  After that I'm leaning towards the "I'm playing these games as close to right as possible".  I can't be expected to keep up with my actions and yours.  I can't be expected to remember if you focused, spent it, and now are claiming you didn't take a focus.  I'm playing my game, your playing yours.  Friendly games, sure. Tournaments.  Sorry.  That's what they are for.  A more advanced gaming experience.

I have a rule. If it's a tournament, then no breaks given. If you play in a tournament you should have a working knowledge of the rules. If you make a mistake, not my problem. It's part of the learning curve with X-Wing.

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I made a mistake with Advanced Sensors - Apparently I was announcing a pre-focus immediatley after I flipped over my dial but before I moved, like "Ok this B-Wing is gonna K-Turn, and he'll pre-focus before the move".  

  One opponent said "Aren't you supposed to announce that BEFORE you reveal?" and I was kinda baffled - because I had been doing it that way for so long that I had to re-read the card, and he was correct.   He allowed me to finish the move , but cited that for the rest of the match I'd need to do it exactly as it was worded.   

 

 

  That seemed pretty fair.   

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