spending the Decloack token decloaking

[Nazull 0]

If you state u r decloaking (spending the cloak token) but find out u cant DC in the direction u wanted. do you still have to decloak but in a new direction as DCing is not classed an action and there for cant pick a new action like u could for doing the normal barrel roll action ?

 

like when u do a normal barrel roll u say u want to BR to the right but find u cant where ever u try to along the stated side.

You there for get the action back and get to pick a new action (in FAQ I believe)

 

hope I explained my meaning right.

 

 

 

 

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

The decloak cards says that if you cannot perform the maneuver you have chosen then you cannot decloak. If you choose to decloak and can't move in the intended direction, if it is a barrel roll, the barrel roll rules would apply and allow you to stop the barrel roll and do something else up to and including trying to barrel roll to the other side.

 

The questionable direction is forwards as it is not covered by any current rules and it is not like a boost action so those rules offer no guidance on it. I expect FFG to update the decloak issue in the next update of the FAQ.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

The questionable direction is forwards as it is not covered by any current rules and it is not like a boost action so those rules offer no guidance on it. I expect FFG to update the decloak issue in the next update of the FAQ.

Do we need current rules for it?

 

You execute a 2 Ahead as a normal maneuver, with the additional limitation that you can't do it if you would overlap an obstacle or another ship, or the template would overlap an obstacle.

 

What's questionable about that?

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

 

The questionable direction is forwards as it is not covered by any current rules and it is not like a boost action so those rules offer no guidance on it. I expect FFG to update the decloak issue in the next update of the FAQ.

Do we need current rules for it?

 

You execute a 2 Ahead as a normal maneuver, with the additional limitation that you can't do it if you would overlap an obstacle or another ship, or the template would overlap an obstacle.

 

What's questionable about that?

 

Can you backtrack, if you overlap with the 2 straight and choose the barrel roll and if so, where is that rule coming from?

[Buhallin 4,563]

Can you backtrack, if you overlap with the 2 straight and choose the barrel roll and if so, where is that rule coming from?

 

 

No, you cannot backtrack - it explicitly says you choose one of the movement effects, and if you can't complete that, you can't decloak.  That's not any different regardless of the direction you choose.

 

Can you try and decloak again?  That's somewhat less explicit given the "single opportunity" rule, but I think you can.  There's a very strong precedent in X-wing for failed effects not costing you the opportunity.  I honestly can't think of any cases right now where trying something you can't do results in you losing anything for it.  Now maybe decloaking is the one new exception to everything - that's possible...  but decloaking isn't currently any more questionable than Squad Leader, Lando, Jan, Garven, Dutch, or any of several dozen cases.

 

If you want to say that we lack comprehensive timing/attempt/how to handle failure rules, I'll agree with that wholeheartedly.  But decloaking isn't some unique thing that we need an FAQ entry for.

[Sergovan 1,440]

I was stating that we would need the FAQ to help with the unclear backtracking, especially with the 2 straight maneuver (which is not covered by the boosting rules like the 2 decloaking choice is with the barrel roll rules).

 

Currently you can decloak while attempting to do a 2 barrel roll and back out of it (as per the Barrel roll rules) and try the 2 straight but you could not do the reverse (take the 2 straight and backtrack out to do the barrel roll option). That is what the FAQ will have to address. And while I have it defined, I may as well and put it in an e-mail.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I was stating that we would need the FAQ to help with the unclear backtracking, especially with the 2 straight maneuver (which is not covered by the boosting rules like the 2 decloaking choice is with the barrel roll rules).

It doesn't need to be covered by the boosting rules, because it includes the exact same wording as the boost rules. On mobile, so not going to copy it, but the text is basically identical. What do you think is in the boost rule that's missing from the decloak rules.

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

I was stating that we would need the FAQ to help with the unclear backtracking, especially with the 2 straight maneuver (which is not covered by the boosting rules like the 2 decloaking choice is with the barrel roll rules).

It doesn't need to be covered by the boosting rules, because it includes the exact same wording as the boost rules. On mobile, so not going to copy it, but the text is basically identical. What do you think is in the boost rule that's missing from the decloak rules.

 

Because the first option is termed a barrel roll, the barrel roll rules applying to overlap kick in (FAQ, Page 1: Errata Rulebook [Page 8]). The second option does not state anywhere that it is a boost, only a maneuver, so boost rules (and the ability to backtrack out while performing a boost) aren't applicable (notably the same FAQ, Page 1: Errata Boost Reference card). 

 

So if you choose option 1, you can backtrack out of your overlap and try the other side barrel roll or try option 2.

 

If you choose option 2, you are locked into doing option 2 as there are no rules that allow you to backtrack out of that choice. You have essentially done a 2 straight that results in an overlap, no decloak, and you are done. 

 

If the decloak card option 2 stated to perform a [2] straight boost, then the boost rules, and the ability to backtrack out from the overlap, would kick in and allow for choosing the barrel roll option 1.

 

I'm finding it odd that you can back out with one option, but are locked in with the other. With how it is worded, a player would take the barrel roll option every time as it is the safest option, with the most leeway, in decloaking.

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

There is nowhere saying you are locked into it, but they may need to include some rules on how to govern when you can't do the 2 straight because of overlap.  I think we can all agree it makes the most sense to treat them all with the same thing as when you fail to do a barrel roll.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Cptnhalfbeard

[Buhallin 4,563]

If the decloak card option 2 stated to perform a [2] straight boost, then the boost rules, and the ability to backtrack out from the overlap, would kick in and allow for choosing the barrel roll option 1.

 

I'm finding it odd that you can back out with one option, but are locked in with the other. With how it is worded, a player would take the barrel roll option every time as it is the safest option, with the most leeway, in decloaking.

You keep claiming these explicit rules that let you back out of the boost - but they're not there any more.  They were removed with the last FAQ.

 

You're probably finding it odd because you're basing it on a precedent which doesn't exist.

 

We can assume that decloaking forward is the only action in the game that you lose if you can't complete it, or we can assume that it works like every single other ability in the game.  Well, except boost, since boost doesn't let you back out any more either.

 

<shrug>  You're obviously hellbent on creating a problem here, so let's just let this go until FFG tells you that you can, indeed, attempt another direction if you try to decloak forward but can't.

 

For everyone else interested in playing it sanely in the mean time: If you try to go forward but can't, you can try to decloak another direction.

[ziggy2000 169]

 

You keep claiming these explicit rules that let you back out of the boost - but they're not there any more.  They were removed with the last FAQ.

 

Not trying to start an argument here, but what was removed regarding backing out of the boost? I found this on page 5 of the latest FAQ:

 

"When performing a boost, a player must declare which maneuver template

and direction he will use. Then, he measures to see if the ship is able to

perform a boost action with the declared template in the desired direction.

If the ship can perform the boost action, it must do so. If the ship cannot

perform the boost action, the player may declare a different maneuver

template or direction to use, or he may declare a different action."

 

The words I bolded are actually an addition between v1.3 and v2.0.1

 

FTR, I'm in agreement that decloaking should work as you describe, but there's a bit of a hole since (in the case of the [straight] 2) the card says "perform a maneuver" and then explicitly says it is not a maneuver. So, it's not a boost, it's not a maneuver, it's a ??? 

Edited June 18, 2014 by ziggy2000

[Parravon 5,217]

Technically it's an effect, I suppose. It's a maneuver that can't end in an overlap. Therefore if you can't complete the forward option, you should be able to choose a barrel roll to either side. If you can't complete a roll, then you don't decloak and you haven't spent your cloak token. There's nothing there locking you into anything. The card says it's not an action or maneuver in order to keep it separate from the Execute Maneuver step and Perform Action step.

It's just decloaking and "reappearing" in real space somewhere unexpected, and I think FFG have created a nice little game mechanic to simulate this effect.

[Nazull 0]

The card says it's not an action or maneuver in order to keep it separate from the Execute Maneuver step and Perform Action step.

It's just decloaking and "reappearing" in real space somewhere unexpected, and I think FFG have created a nice little game mechanic to simulate this effect.

 

Sorry, the 2 forward is not a boost BUT IT IS a normal 2 forward "maneuver" as it states on the card. Following the normal rule for maneuvering.

 

So my under standing is if you pick to do the 2 forward (as part of the decloak) and would over lap another ship and as it is classed as a maneuver (stated on the card) you would still be cloaked but would stop pumbed into the ship. again stated on the card you can not decloak if you would overlap a ship but still follow the rule for doing the 2 forward maneuver.

 

Then you would reveil you manuever diel do that and then get an acation "BUT" as you would still be cloaked you can not shoot. as during ur decloak 2 forward maneuver you end up pumbing into another ship but dont decloak.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Nazull

[Bilisknir 443]

 

The card says it's not an action or maneuver in order to keep it separate from the Execute Maneuver step and Perform Action step.

It's just decloaking and "reappearing" in real space somewhere unexpected, and I think FFG have created a nice little game mechanic to simulate this effect.

 

Sorry, the 2 forward is not a boost BUT IT IS a normal 2 forward "maneuver" as it states on the card. Following the normal rule for maneuvering.

 

So my under standing is if you pick to do the 2 forward (as part of the decloak) and would over lap another ship and as it is classed as a maneuver (stated on the card) you would still be cloaked but would stop pumbed into the ship. again stated on the card you can not decloak if you would overlap a ship but still follow the rule for doing the 2 forward maneuver.

 

Then you would reveil you manuever diel do that and then get an acation "BUT" as you would still be cloaked you can not shoot. as during ur decloak 2 forward maneuver you end up pumbing into another ship but dont decloak.

 

 

No - if your manoeuvre template overlaps then you don't decloak, so the move does not happen and you stay where you are.

 

My question is: if once you have declared you are decloaking and then if you cannot perform the manoeuvre you wanted (i.e. cannot barrel roll left), whether you must perform a barrel roll right or do the 2 straight or if you can decide at that point not to decloak.

[Nazull 0]

 

 

The card says it's not an action or maneuver in order to keep it separate from the Execute Maneuver step and Perform Action step.

It's just decloaking and "reappearing" in real space somewhere unexpected, and I think FFG have created a nice little game mechanic to simulate this effect.

 

Sorry, the 2 forward is not a boost BUT IT IS a normal 2 forward "maneuver" as it states on the card. Following the normal rule for maneuvering.

 

So my under standing is if you pick to do the 2 forward (as part of the decloak) and would over lap another ship and as it is classed as a maneuver (stated on the card) you would still be cloaked but would stop pumbed into the ship. again stated on the card you can not decloak if you would overlap a ship but still follow the rule for doing the 2 forward maneuver.

 

Then you would reveil you manuever diel do that and then get an acation "BUT" as you would still be cloaked you can not shoot. as during ur decloak 2 forward maneuver you end up pumbing into another ship but dont decloak.

 

 

No - if your manoeuvre template overlaps then you don't decloak, so the move does not happen and you stay where you are.

 

My question is: if once you have declared you are decloaking and then if you cannot perform the manoeuvre you wanted (i.e. cannot barrel roll left), whether you must perform a barrel roll right or do the 2 straight or if you can decide at that point not to decloak.

 

 

The card state "A Ship cannot declack if "IT" (meaning the ship) would overlap another ship or an obstcle, "OR" if the template would overlap an obstacle token.

 

So as you are doing a 2 forward maneouver (following the normal rules for doing a 2 forward maneuver) you move up bump in to the ship but do not declaok

 

And as to your question. the 2 forward is a normal maneuver where as the 2 barrel roll is just that . 2 diffrent option both with diffrent ruels.

 

2 forward follows the rules for any normal 2 forward maneuver

 

Then there is the

 

2 Barrel roll follows the normal rules for the barrel rolls (with the Added part that u can not decloak if the tamplate pass's over an token.. but on BOTH options you are in a new location/position but STAY cloaked.

 

I think if you do the 2 right barrel roll over another ship and can make it to the other side then u end the move on the other side of the ship but you can not decloak as ur template passed over it but the ship did not over lap the other ship.

 

but with a 2 forward you over lap then u are classed as bumping into that ship. as you follow the rules for maneuvering 2 forward.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Nazull

[Bilisknir 443]

Just... No.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

No - if your manoeuvre template overlaps then you don't decloak, so the move does not happen and you stay where you are.

 

My question is: if once you have declared you are decloaking and then if you cannot perform the manoeuvre you wanted (i.e. cannot barrel roll left), whether you must perform a barrel roll right or do the 2 straight or if you can decide at that point not to decloak.

 

I would say no, because like the boost and barrel roll rules, if you can't do it, you're not locked into completing it. You've still got an option. I really can't see the straight maneuver being a "locked in" option that MUST end in a bump if you miscalculate the distance. 

The way I read it, is if your forward template or ship overlaps, that's not an option, try rolling.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Parravon

[Parravon 5,217]

 

I think if you do the 2 right barrel roll over another ship and can make it to the other side then u end the move on the other side of the ship but you can not decloak as ur template passed over it but the ship did not over lap the other ship.

 

Now this line of thought is just abusing the decloak and treating it as a free big barrel roll. You apply the maneuver rules vehemently, but ignore the barrel roll rules? 

The card states: "When a ship decloaks, it must choose one of the following effects..." It then goes on to state that you cannot decloak if you would overlap, so if you cannot decloak with the chosen option, then you cannot do the chosen option.

What you're suggesting is two moves every turn as long as you manage to overlap on its decloak. That's just wrong.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Parravon

[Bilisknir 443]

 

 

No - if your manoeuvre template overlaps then you don't decloak, so the move does not happen and you stay where you are.

 

My question is: if once you have declared you are decloaking and then if you cannot perform the manoeuvre you wanted (i.e. cannot barrel roll left), whether you must perform a barrel roll right or do the 2 straight or if you can decide at that point not to decloak.

 

I would say no, because like the boost and barrel roll rules, if you can't do it, you're not locked into completing it. You've still got an option. I really can't see the straight maneuver being a "locked in" option that MUST end in a bump if you miscalculate the distance. 

The way I read it, is if your forward template or ship overlaps, that's not an option, try rolling.

 

 

That is indeed my point. Once you declare decloaking, must you decloak if you can perform any of the moves, or can you decide not to decloak if you cannot perform the one move you wanted.

[Sergovan 1,440]

 

 

My question is: if once you have declared you are decloaking and then if you cannot perform the manoeuvre you wanted (i.e. cannot barrel roll left), whether you must perform a barrel roll right or do the 2 straight or if you can decide at that point not to decloak.

 

 

That's the question I am trying to determine myself.

 

If you attempt to decloak but overlap you don't decloak.

 

If you did a barrel roll and overlap, you get to backtrack out of it and try the other way or the straight maneuver.

 

If you overlap on the forward move you fail to decloak.

 

Decloak has a "once per opportunity" ridding on it so if you overlap and can't backtrack out of your optioned maneuver you lose the chance to decloak for that round.

 

Why does one option have the ability to backtrack (keeping the decloak alive) while the other ends it?

[Bilisknir 443]

I would say you get the opportunity to try any of the decloak movement translations (though once you choose one you must do it if able). That means you can try the forward and fail it and then go for the sideways shift and vice-versa. What I'm not sure of (and in fact not even sure which I want it to be) is if you are required to decloak if you declared it and are able in some way to do one of the decloak movement translations or if having failed your chosen translation you can abort the decloak.

 

My reading of the latest FAQ and the ruling on Expert Handling leads me to think you are not required to do one of the other possible decloak movement translations if you are able and have declared you are attempting to decloak. This comes from the FAQ saying you can back out of Expert Handling if you cannot perform a Barrel Roll. The question is are the two directions of a barrel roll separate actions? The competitive rules part of the FAQ seems to say that is the case. So that would support this interpretation. If however you argue that once Expert Handling is declared you must perform a Barrel Roll if at all possible (since it states perform a Barrel Roll - not perform a Barrel Roll in your chosen direction), then you might read this the other way round.

 

Note that I'm avoiding the use of the words manoeuvre/action/barrel roll (in a number of places) on purpose.

[StephenEsven 632]

Well as with Boost/Barrel Role this all comes down to one thing that nobody has mentioned in this post. What type of game are you playing? If you play by the standard casual rules, if you declare a 2 Barrel role or 2 Staright and discover that you would overlap, then you are free to choose any other action you want, including Decloaking in another direction.

 

If you are playing with the competitive rules, I would expect the Barrel Role rules for going to the other side if you can't barrel role in the chosen direction to apply. Choosing Straight would still allow you to choose Decloak with Barrel Role if 2 Straight would overlap. But If you Choose a 2 Barrel Role, both sides would have to overlap for you to get to choose a different action.

[Bilisknir 443]

Well as with Boost/Barrel Role this all comes down to one thing that nobody has mentioned in this post. What type of game are you playing? If you play by the standard casual rules, if you declare a 2 Barrel role or 2 Staright and discover that you would overlap, then you are free to choose any other action you want, including Decloaking in another direction.

 

If you are playing with the competitive rules, I would expect the Barrel Role rules for going to the other side if you can't barrel role in the chosen direction to apply. Choosing Straight would still allow you to choose Decloak with Barrel Role if 2 Straight would overlap. But If you Choose a 2 Barrel Role, both sides would have to overlap for you to get to choose a different action.

That isn't what the competitive rules FAQ now says. See page 5 of the current FAQ.

 

When performing a barrel roll, a player must first declare from which side

of the ship’s base the action will be performed. Then, he measures to see

if the ship is able to perform a barrel roll action from any legal area on the

declared side. If the ship can perform the barrel roll action, it must do so.

If the ship cannot perform the barrel roll action, the player may declare a

barrel roll in the other direction, or he may declare a different action.

 

(Emphasis mine)

[Buhallin 4,563]

You keep claiming these explicit rules that let you back out of the boost - but they're not there any more.  They were removed with the last FAQ.

Not trying to start an argument here, but what was removed regarding backing out of the boost? I found this on page 5 of the latest FAQ:

 

"When performing a boost, a player must declare which maneuver template

and direction he will use. Then, he measures to see if the ship is able to

perform a boost action with the declared template in the desired direction.

If the ship can perform the boost action, it must do so. If the ship cannot

perform the boost action, the player may declare a different maneuver

template or direction to use, or he may declare a different action."

 

The words I bolded are actually an addition between v1.3 and v2.0.1

 

FTR, I'm in agreement that decloaking should work as you describe, but there's a bit of a hole since (in the case of the [straight] 2) the card says "perform a maneuver" and then explicitly says it is not a maneuver. So, it's not a boost, it's not a maneuver, it's a ???

This is in the Competitive Play section, and only applies there. Does this mean you can back out the boost during competitive play, but not casual play? We used to have a specific clarification on whether the same "fail can choose something else" for boost, but it's not in the new FAQ.

This entire argument is inane in the extreme. You (Sergovan, not you ziggy) don't even have a consistent argument. You say the barrel roll rules let you back out and choose a different decloak. Why? Barrel roll doesn't say that, it says you can choose a new action. If you try and barrel roll but fail, do you get to take a free action?

Yes, there is a fuzzy spot over whether you must decloak a direction you don't want to if you can't go the direction you do want to. I think it'll be handles like everything else in the game, but it's at least a fair question. The idea that it will be handled differently based on the direction you choose is just idiotic.

[Buhallin 4,563]

That isn't what the competitive rules FAQ now says. See page 5 of the current FAQ.

This isn't what the competitive rules has ever said. You've never been required to check multiple directions if your desired direction failed.