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XG-1 "Star Wing" Assault Gunboat Thread

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7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Oh, just noticed something awkward about Cluster Missiles: you can't take the bonus attack if you're disarmed, even with OS-1...  No doubt it's been noticed before, but still.

This is correct, which is why you really don't see missiles on the boats.  The only decent missile is barrage, the rest range from mediocre to terrible.

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On 2/11/2019 at 7:36 AM, mcgreag said:

I tested that XG-1 build that was posted in that other gunboat thread with Ion Cannon, Adv Proton torps, Adv Slam and FCS.

There it was suggested to run 4 of them but as I only own 2 (yes I know it's heresy) I tried to find something that would take my opponents attention so I could flank with the gunboats. 

That thing ended up being a TIE Reaper with Deathtroopers and Tactical Scrambler and 2 TIE Fighters. Because I could I ran everything at initiative 2 (Nu, Nu, Vizier, Night Beast, Obsidian).

Worked better than expected. Played 2 games against Vader, Sontir, Redline flown by a guy that is a step better than me and first game I tabled him without a single loss. Second game he focused the gunboats and I played them a little too aggressively. The result was a 7 point loss (I killed Redline and he killed a Gunboat and got half points on the Reaper).

Only got off a single Adv Proton torp in both games but they where still worth it I think. It make the gunboats a real threat that needs to be played around instead of just an annoyance.

I keep coming back to this build. It is so fun to fly. Lining up the APT can be hard but so rewarding when you get it! 

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2 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

How hard is it to line up a bullseye shot on an ionized enemy? I wonder if there's a place for Ion torpedo/procket or ion torpedo HLC.

Pretty hard with no repositioning ability.  APT are cheaper and more flexible.  Per usual, torpedoes are just straight up better than the missiles.

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I think there are totally times when Proton Rockets are better than Advanced Proton Torpedoes.  PRockets have seemed great on Maarek Stele on a TIE/x1 as I've played with him some.  Ships which get both Focus and some sort of movement action are probably going to be solid with Proton Rockets.  There aren't too many ships which can simultaneously boost and lock, however.

But HolySorceror is right: with a Gunboat which can't really use actions to adjust position, APT are going to be stronger.

HLC and Ion Ordnance gets something fundamentally wrong, however.  If a gunboat is easily able to get locks at range 2-3, just use a Proton Torpedo and get to the good 4-dice damage right away.  No need to go through the extra steps of Ion and Bullseye.  The big point of an Ion Cannon/APT build is that you don't need a lock to fire Ion Cannon the first turn (the hardest one for a low-init ship to have a lock), but second-turn locks are easy, hence APT.

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3 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

The idea is that, ion torpedos being a better ion cannon.

The Ion Torpedoes roll more dice than the Cannon, but they also require a lock.  If the goal is to use Ions to set up high-damage shots like HLC, Proton Rockets, or Advanced Proton Torpedoes, the final goal is still high damage.  If I have a gunboat which can easily get the locks they'd need to fire Ion Torpedoes, I'd also have a Gunboat which could easily get the locks to fire Proton Torpedoes, and I could cut out the middle man, skip the Ion, and go straight for high-damage attacks.

Ion Control can be an end in itself.  I think an Upsilon with an Ion Cannon probably isn't too bad. *edit* I kinda lost the plot here in these two sentences... I think Ion is sometimes preferable to straight-damage, but damage is what wins the game in the end.

Edited by theBitterFig

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12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The Ion Torpedoes roll more dice than the Cannon, but they also require a lock.  If the goal is to use Ions to set up high-damage shots like HLC, Proton Rockets, or Advanced Proton Torpedoes, the final goal is still high damage.  If I have a gunboat which can easily get the locks they'd need to fire Ion Torpedoes, I'd also have a Gunboat which could easily get the locks to fire Proton Torpedoes, and I could cut out the middle man, skip the Ion, and go straight for high-damage attacks.

Ion Control can be an end in itself.  I think an Upsilon with an Ion Cannon probably isn't too bad.

Pretty much this; I've had more consistent damage output with Ion cannons and they are beastly against low agility lists that I run into.

The cannon/APT one is just better in every way than a PT one:
 

Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Fire-Control System	2
Proton Torpedoes	12
Advanced SLAM	3
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout	0
Ship Total: 49
Half Points: 25 Threshold: 4
 	
Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Fire-Control System	2
Adv. Proton Torpedoes	6
Advanced SLAM	3
Xg-1 Assault Configuration	0
Heavy Laser Cannon	4
Ship Total: 47
Half Points: 24 Threshold: 4

Cheaper, better control elements, easier to get locks, etc.

Edited by impspy

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12 minutes ago, impspy said:

Pretty much this; I've had more consistent damage output with Ion cannons and they are beastly against low agility lists that I run into.

The cannon/APT one is just better in every way than a PT one:
 


Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Fire-Control System	2
Proton Torpedoes	12
Advanced SLAM	3
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout	0
Ship Total: 49
Half Points: 25 Threshold: 4
 	
Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Fire-Control System	2
Adv. Proton Torpedoes	6
Advanced SLAM	3
Xg-1 Assault Configuration	0
Heavy Laser Cannon	4
Ship Total: 47
Half Points: 24 Threshold: 4

Cheaper, better control elements, easier to get locks, etc.

Did you mean Ion or HLC cannon in the second Nu?

Anyhow, if I could get the locks, I'd totally be running OS-1/ProTorp.  My favorite builds in 1e were PTL/AdvSlam/Missile/OS-1.

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1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Did you mean Ion or HLC cannon in the second Nu?

Anyhow, if I could get the locks, I'd totally be running OS-1/ProTorp.  My favorite builds in 1e were PTL/AdvSlam/Missile/OS-1.

Ion lol. It still holds true, and yes I agree that PT would be way better if coupled with a way to get a consistent lock.

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22 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

wait, there's another gunboat thread?

 

21 hours ago, Estarriol said:

It’s linked on page 400. It’s not a proper gunboat thread. This is the only real one ;)

It was only page 6 🙂

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Time to embrace the crazy.

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)
Fire-Control System (2)
Ion Torpedoes (6)
Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Total: 40

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

This is effectively an unmodified 5 die ion cannon on SLAMs or Reloads with a range 1 dead zone. Either walk targets off the board or take them out with chip damage from up to 5 of these things on the board.

ASLAM  would be an improvement to allow focus on SLAM orSLAM out and reload, but it doesnt help with pursuit ions where you 1 straight-reload-fire every round. It also takes you off the 40 pts critival value.

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Have I missed something about the torps? Aren’t they 4 Dice? Also if you wanted ASLAM you could drop down to Ion Missiles which also have an extra charge.

Out of curiosity, do you think this will be superior to the 5 Ion cannon xg-1 squad, I mean, you get the extra die but they get mods off ASLAM. Pretty sure it evens out.

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2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

Have I missed something about the torps? Aren’t they 4 Dice? Also if you wanted ASLAM you could drop down to Ion Missiles which also have an extra charge.

Out of curiosity, do you think this will be superior to the 5 Ion cannon xg-1 squad, I mean, you get the extra die but they get mods off ASLAM. Pretty sure it evens out.

4 dice plus FCS is a fake 5th die.

For ion, I think the varience of extra dice is better than the certanty of more mods, because it's not enough to hit, you need to hit hard enough to ionize at least once per round.

Edited by Rakaydos

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I guess I don't really have the guts for low-init locks.  For 40 points, I'm bringing XG-1/Ion Cannon/Advanced SLAM.  T-70 statline at 5-per-list points levels.  Zippy, things, in their way, though they can't turn around fast.

I don't know why folks keep telling me Ion Cannons are bad.  They aren't Invincible Vennie or anything, but a really decent upgrade to any 2-dice ship.  Just played 3 games with Ion Cannon Scyks (cheapest 3-red generics in the game) and had an overall good experience with them.  Wasn't too hard to get an Ion token onto a T-70, and even got one on Fenn Rau in a different game.

I mean, a Scyk and a Starwing are going to fly really differently.  1-hards and 5-K stand out as moves a Scyk has that a Gunboat can't pull, but missing the 1-straight is kinda irksome.

//

Looking at the math for Ion Torpedoes, though, unless you're spending the lock or also have a focus token, they aren't that much better than the Cannon if you're willing to spend focus.

(Ion Torpedoes) 4 dice using only the FCS: 0.735 expected damage, 47% chance of at least one Ion token against 3 green dice without focus.

(Ion Cannon) 3 dice with a Focus you're willing to spend: 0.722 expected damage, 39% chance of at least one Ion token against 3 green dice without focus.

This also misses the potential effect of the Ion Torp not allowing the target a range bonus die.  But even that isn't huge.

(Ion Cannon) 3 dice with a Focus: 0.598 expected damage, 28% chance of at least one Ion token against 4 green dice without focus.

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2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Looking at the math for Ion Torpedoes, though, unless you're spending the lock or also have a focus token, they aren't that much better than the Cannon if you're willing to spend focus.

This is the real problem with ordnance gunboats. I love loading up with a huge pile of torpedoes, but it's a lot of points and doesn't give you a particularly good attack anyway. 

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7 hours ago, gadwag said:

This is the real problem with ordnance gunboats. I love loading up with a huge pile of torpedoes, but it's a lot of points and doesn't give you a particularly good attack anyway. 

Some of that is a quirk of Ion weapons, though.  Once you uncap the single-damage attack, the differences between an FCS Proton Torpedo and a Focused 3-red attack (which gunboats don't exactly have access to) becomes a good deal more apparent.

But I think it'll also depend on the intended role of how the ship flies.  An OS-1 Nu with FCS/Proton Torpedo/Advanced SLAM probably isn't going to work best in a full squad like generic T-70s.  Instead, it might be a decent flanker.  Throw it in next to... Vader and Redline?  Points ought to work out.  If they ignore the Nu, it'll get behind stuff, and start chucking a bunch of Torpedoes.  I keep being fascinated by Vynder with the same build, but also Lone Wolf.  Getting a 2nd reroll also makes a difference, and 3 green dice with a focus and a reroll on disengage turns seems potent.

To that end, a potent Talent for a Gunboat would be a single-use upgrade which gave some kind of focus conversion... Hrm.  Spend the one non-recurring charge, turn 1 eye to a hit...  Maybe have it usable only when unstressed, and require you to take a stress to activate it.  One time, one focus result, one stress.  2 points.  I think I'd fly that on a bunch of stuff.

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4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

To that end, a potent Talent for a Gunboat would be a single-use upgrade which gave some kind of focus conversion... Hrm.  Spend the one non-recurring charge, turn 1 eye to a hit...  Maybe have it usable only when unstressed, and require you to take a stress to activate it.  One time, one focus result, one stress.  2 points.  I think I'd fly that on a bunch of stuff.

And another reason to never take Karsabi.

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9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Some of that is a quirk of Ion weapons, though.  Once you uncap the single-damage attack, the differences between an FCS Proton Torpedo and a Focused 3-red attack (which gunboats don't exactly have access to) becomes a good deal more apparent.

But I think it'll also depend on the intended role of how the ship flies.  An OS-1 Nu with FCS/Proton Torpedo/Advanced SLAM probably isn't going to work best in a full squad like generic T-70s.  Instead, it might be a decent flanker.  Throw it in next to... Vader and Redline?  Points ought to work out.  If they ignore the Nu, it'll get behind stuff, and start chucking a bunch of Torpedoes.  I keep being fascinated by Vynder with the same build, but also Lone Wolf.  Getting a 2nd reroll also makes a difference, and 3 green dice with a focus and a reroll on disengage turns seems potent.

To that end, a potent Talent for a Gunboat would be a single-use upgrade which gave some kind of focus conversion... Hrm.  Spend the one non-recurring charge, turn 1 eye to a hit...  Maybe have it usable only when unstressed, and require you to take a stress to activate it.  One time, one focus result, one stress.  2 points.  I think I'd fly that on a bunch of stuff.

Lone wolf is a great talent on vynder. It makes him really tough when chased, and hit harder when chasing. That said, as much as I enjoy loading him up with torps, its a LOT more points for a marginal increase in damage, even when considering the damage cap of ion. If he's shooting at any green dice at all, the torpedoes are barely doing any more damage, as your math shows. If the torpedoes are still only doing about one damage, I'm not shelling out for them, even if that damage is a crit. The torps do have high damage potential, but it's very much relying on luck. This is especially true when fighting aces, who can block a lot of incoming damage from either weapon and can easily get into the r1 blind spot of torpedoes. Admittedly, the current meta full of low-agility falcons and Y-wings is probably a pretty safe place to run him with torps, so that's something.

I really wish saturation salvo was less terrible - 6pts and forcing a reroll of two dice really hurts (no option to reroll only one). Lone wolf is just flat out a better choice on vynder I think. Still, I might have to run a cluster missile salvo gunboat just to empty the missile pods all in one go.

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Saturation salvo would be usable at like 1-2 points but a 6? I just can’t justify it which is a bummer because it is pretty much the only talent I even consider with a gunboat. It also doesn’t gel with APT which is my favorite ordnance...

Outside of a lone wolf Vynder, does anyone equip a talent on our beloved gunboats?

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17 minutes ago, urbanyeti said:

Saturation salvo would be usable at like 1-2 points but a 6? I just can’t justify it which is a bummer because it is pretty much the only talent I even consider with a gunboat. It also doesn’t gel with APT which is my favorite ordnance...

Outside of a lone wolf Vynder, does anyone equip a talent on our beloved gunboats?

Been trying to make Intimidation Vynder work, but it just isn’t getting me much.

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I think you bring lone wolf, trick shot, or nothing.

Wait, I forgot: outmaneuver is alright as well, particularly if you want to make your opponent choose between going for the gunboat and going for your other ships.

Edited by gadwag

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