Jump to content
FTS Gecko

XG-1 "Star Wing" Assault Gunboat Thread

Recommended Posts

I guess there's just two kinds of players in X-Wing 2e.  Those who want Mangler Cannon to come back, and those who don't.  I'm personally glad there isn't a normal-damage 3-dice cannon.  I feel like that massively shuts down design space for any 2-dice cannon ships.

Other folks disagree, and that's fine.

So it goes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I played my lists tonight. Vessery, Vynder and a Nu met Whisper, Soontir and Duchess. It wasn’t pretty. I mad3 some mistakes but really all that meant was failing to kill Soontir before I lost rather than leaving him on one Hull.

List two narrowly beat Nightbeast and three Sabers with SD, Pred and AB. After crapping out with my initial torpedo shots (seriously, one hit? On both?) I managed to pull it back at the end. 

My current research leads me to the following:

* that XG-1 is garbage.

*Also SLAM is addictive and should be used in moderation.

* Also four ships is a sweet spot to occupy.

* Also, A defender flanked by Gunboats looks bloody awesome and I’m going to make it work! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lieutenant Karsabi (37)
Outmaneuver (6)
Fire-Control System (2)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Afterburners (6)
Xg-1 Assault Configuration (0)
Ion Cannon (5)

Total: 62

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Karasabi gets an early lock, lands ion with FSC, then  SLAMS into range 1 for the advanced torp, taking the stress to ignore the weapon disabled.

Worth his points? probably not. But it does use his ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Lieutenant Karsabi (37)
Outmaneuver (6)
Fire-Control System (2)
Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
Afterburners (6)
Xg-1 Assault Configuration (0)
Ion Cannon (5)

Total: 62

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Karasabi gets an early lock, lands ion with FSC, then  SLAMS into range 1 for the advanced torp, taking the stress to ignore the weapon disabled.

Worth his points? probably not. But it does use his ability.

You don't need to slam to get into range 1 of an ionized target.  Upgrade to a Rho and save two points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"You don't want a game where ionizing is good" - Alex Davy

I have found ion cannons barely worth the effort in 2.0.
Most of the time it has resulted on a 1 damage attack, no tokens assigned. 
Ion cannon gunboats feel like they have no teeth at all. And since they cannot attack with ordnance after SLAM, you don't want to SLAM all the time. But then you have a ship that cannot do koiograns and takes 2 rounds to turn around, 3 if you have stress or there are obstacles on your U turn path. 
In First Edition I used to equip Rhos with Lightning Reflexes to let them turn around after a SLAM to reengage. That is gone now.
I have been most effective with OS-1 torpedo boats that strike first with Jendon giving them early locks, then break off in wide SLAM turn arounds while they reacquire locks and reload with Advanced SLAM while they coordinate another strike. Jendon has been surprisingly effective at being a sacrificial bait with Reinforce, while his primary weapon isn't that stupid once he gets to mod it with Focus and being Ruthless with a nearby gunboat.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2019 at 3:09 PM, FTS Gecko said:

Your HLCs are dead.  Find a new crutch to lean on.

Here’s hoping Wave 4 gives us something interesting to play with. I ran triple gunboats through the end of first edition and can’t find anything so far that feels compelling for second edition gunboats. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2019 at 3:09 PM, FTS Gecko said:

Your HLCs are dead.  Find a new crutch to lean on.

 

22 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Here’s hoping Wave 4 gives us something interesting to play with. I ran triple gunboats through the end of first edition and can’t find anything so far that feels compelling for second edition gunboats. 

Gunboats only have one real issue in 2.0, the word “Gun”, because they don’t really have one.

Can’t use the word “missile” either really.

They are sadly just “boats.”

They gutted it for no reason. They killed the dream that almost was. They have failed the Empire. 

Yay “boats.......meh”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is kinda frustrating these days.  So much entitlement.

Compare to the TIE Bomber.  More total HP (three of which are shields), with white reloads and titles which let you shoot while disarmed, and the potent SLAM action.  For 2 points more than a TIE Bomber.

That's totally a fair ship.

But in 1e it was probably a little bit broken and by far one of the best generic ships in Empire, so of course it came down to a sane level.  It was exactly because of the power creep of ships like the 1e Gunboat that we needed a 2e.

//

It would be cool to see something like Lightning Reflexes come back, though.  That was a pretty nifty Talent.  It'd be really good with the new XG-1, too.  Move, SLAM, flip, shoot.  Even if it's "just" an Ion Cannon (if it's not doing Ion tokens, it isn't doing more damage than the hypothetical Mangler Cannon folks keep drooling over), that would lead to really cool positioning options.

How would folks like a new Lightning Reflexes to look?  1-2 points and 1 non-recurring charge?  More points (3-5?) with some sort of recurring charge effect, like spend three to flip?  Maybe no charges, but it costs a shield, like Inertial Dampeners.  I kinda love the "spend multiple recurring charges" effects myself, but cheaper might be better.  If it was 1 point, you could run a Rho with a new Lightning Reflexes, Ion Cannon, and Advanced SLAM for 44 points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

I disagree that the Gunboat was broken in first edition. It was the Harpoon that made it good, it was still a meh ship. I want to fly mine out of pure nostalgia and because they look cool.

Harpoons made everything that could take them good in first edition.

Well, harpoons, Deadeye and Guidance Chips.  But mostly Harpoons.

I still think XG-1 Ion Gunboats are where it's at.  But of course, a) I'm a traditionalist and b) I need much more table time in 2nd edition than I'm currently getting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Gunboats only have one real issue in 2.0, the word “Gun”, because they don’t really have one.

Can’t use the word “missile” either really.

They are sadly just “boats.”

9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

But in 1e it was probably a little bit broken and by far one of the best generic ships in Empire, so of course it came down to a sane level.  It was exactly because of the power creep of ships like the 1e Gunboat that we needed a 2e.

 

 

In first edition it was able to succeed (briefly) because it was a cheap platform for a broken mechanic, not because it was inherently amazing. You still had to play the game and point your arcs in the right direction. It was probably the best generic ship in any faction, but tied inextricably to harpoons. 

Right now gunboats are suffering because they have to actually pick up locks at low I and then maintain arcs / range, or they take cannons that have a highly limited damage output (and if ions are ever “good,” your opponent probably isn’t enjoying the game).

If you give gunboats a cannon equivalent of barrage rockets (I.e., with charges), they’re probably going to see a lot of table time. Right now I can’t even find value in them as flankers, as they’re just getting range controlled / not doing enough damage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Currently I am running 4 Gunboats in a list, and I have been very happy with both how awesome it looks, and how well they can get around the table with Advanced SLAM. My opponents seem to always fall into pattern thinking they are slower then they are. Currently waiting for alternate cannon options, but free beam weapons are a bonus at this point. 

Alpha-class Star Wing - Rho Squadron Pilot - 52
    Rho Squadron Pilot - (35)
        Saturation Salvo (6)
        Fire-Control System (2)
        Concussion Missiles (6)
        Advanced SLAM (3)
        Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Alpha-class Star Wing - Rho Squadron Pilot - 52
    Rho Squadron Pilot - (35)
        Saturation Salvo (6)
        Fire-Control System (2)
        Concussion Missiles (6)
        Advanced SLAM (3)
        Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Alpha-class Star Wing - •Lieutenant Karsabi - 47
    •Lieutenant Karsabi - Brash Noble (37)
        Marksmanship (1)
        Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
        Advanced SLAM (3)
        Xg-1 Assault Configuration (0)
        Jamming Beam (0)

Alpha-class Star Wing - •Major Vynder - 49
    •Major Vynder - Pragmatic Survivor (39)
        Marksmanship (1)
        Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)
        Advanced SLAM (3)
        Xg-1 Assault Configuration (0)
        Jamming Beam (0)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Harpoons went a long way, but I think if Harpoon had never existed, 1e Homing Missile or even Concussion Missile Gunboats would have still been quite good.

It also doesn't make sense to argue that only Harpoons made Gunboats good, when Gunboats were among the best ships to carry Harpoons, at a time when everyone was carrying Harpoons.  Gunboats were pretty clearly powercreep over earlier ships.  Hence "a little bit" broken.  Not a lot, just a little.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Harpoons went a long way, but I think if Harpoon had never existed, 1e Homing Missile or even Concussion Missile Gunboats would have still been quite good.

It also doesn't make sense to argue that only Harpoons made Gunboats good, when Gunboats were among the best ships to carry Harpoons, at a time when everyone was carrying Harpoons.  Gunboats were pretty clearly powercreep over earlier ships.  Hence "a little bit" broken.  Not a lot, just a little.

Mangler Nus are the best 1st edition Gunboats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Harpoons went a long way, but I think if Harpoon had never existed, 1e Homing Missile or even Concussion Missile Gunboats would have still been quite good.

It also doesn't make sense to argue that only Harpoons made Gunboats good, when Gunboats were among the best ships to carry Harpoons, at a time when everyone was carrying Harpoons.  Gunboats were pretty clearly powercreep over earlier ships.  Hence "a little bit" broken.  Not a lot, just a little.

Gunboats would have been OK without harpoons, sure - HLC boats were certainly fine. But realistically even they got pushed aside pretty fast (competitively) once people realized that Nym Miranda and Ghost Fenn could straight up out-joust them. 

I don’t want to return to those days, but right now there’s just no unique value in bringing them 😕

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gunboats were power creep in First Edition also because they were one of the very few ships with the Reload action, what made them more cost effective than other ordnance platforms. I don't think SLAM is so much greater than koiogran when you want to release all your ordnance before being destroyed, or while the rest of your squad is being destroyed and you are going on a sunday ride around the asteroid field to do turn around.

The fact that you could equip HLC and Linked Battery on XG-1, allowing you to roll 4 dice with focus and 1 reroll made them less vulnerable to being out-PS'ed.
Nothing of that is available now.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:

but right now there’s just no unique value in bringing them 😕

They're literally the only ship which can Reload and still shoot.  I'd call that unique.  I can't quite say that about SLAM and still shooting, since Black One exists, but still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Odanan said:

Mangler Nus are the best 1st edition Gunboats.

We all have our favorites.  I think I was most impressed by PTL/Harpoon/Advanced SLAM/OS-1 on a Rho or Vynder.  It was pretty potent as the 3rd ship in a 3-ship build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, to bring us a little bit forward from 1.0 comparisons I have refined my original two lists slightly. First up, my Defender and two Gunboats. I have switched out to OS1 because it’s better, but Ion missiles on Vynder to make it feel like he still has his cannon. There are other options to explore with this concept though, and I’m always interested to hear other points of view. The basic idea is that the Gunboats take locks for Vessery to play with and he does his best to snipe without getting shot. The APTs on Vynder give him teeth when needed and the Ions mean he’s never doing nothing. Options include trading the Nu’s APT or downgrading the PT to IM in order to give Vessery a Collision Detector. Rex is cheaper than Vessery, but I worry that his damage output would be less without his free target lock. Nevertheless there are four points available there and a higher PS to boot.

Delta-Rho 1.1

(86) Colonel Vessery
(5) Juke
Points 91

(39) Major Vynder
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(4) Ion Missiles
(3) Advanced SLAM
(2) Fire-Control System
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points 54

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(3) Advanced SLAM
(2) Fire-Control System
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points 55

Total points: 200

Another idea is just slotting a different third ship into the good ol’ Aces. It’s a lot of fun, but it’s not a Gunboat list; just a list that happens to have a Gunboat. Vulnerable to PS6 and swarms. Options include a collision Detector on Whisper instead of FCS on Rex, upgrading to Vynder, or trimming back to an Onyx or cutting sn upgrade from the Gunboat to fit fifth brother onto Whisper.

 

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(2) Fire-Control System
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
(3) Advanced SLAM
(4) Ion Missiles
Points 47

(82) Rexler Brath
(5) Juke
(2) Fire-Control System
Points 89

(54) "Whisper"
(5) Juke
Points 59

Total points: 195

I still think this is by far the strongest option, but not strong enough I fear. Easy to trim upgrades from the shuttle for some APT I suppose, or even trade the PT for APT+IM, and while it adds control it does rather screw the Alpha strike.

Escort mission

(46) Colonel Jendon
(4) ST-321
(0) Jamming Beam
(3) Hull Upgrade
Points 53

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(2) Fire-Control System
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(3) Advanced SLAM
Points 49

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(2) Fire-Control System
(3) Advanced SLAM
Points 49

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(2) Fire-Control System
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(3) Advanced SLAM
Points 49

Total points: 200

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×