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XG-1 "Star Wing" Assault Gunboat Thread

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So, I’m looking at Gunboats and trying to figure out what to do with them. Anyone got any squads of doom to share? Two plus Vessary ought to be cool but i’m struggling to make the Gunboats a decent secondary threat.

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If you're spending 12 points on Nu ordnance, what's your preference?

I could brave the points increase (which evens out with Nus and FCS going down) and go for the R2-3 greatness of Proton Torpedoes. Those four dice are great, but here comes that boosting bastard and ruins my day, laughing in my face as my blindspot and disabled token prevents me from shooting at all. Then there's Concussion Missiles + Advanced Proton Torpedoes, giving me more charges, covering my blind spot and giving me a massively dangerous R1 attack, but my long range firepower suffers.

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So, not to suggest that karsabi is any good, but maybe his niche is with afterburners 

 

Unfortunately still requires jendon for mods, but hey I tried 

 

Option 2 is he's the only xg-1 who can fire ordnance post slam 

New Squadron

(39) Major Vynder
(0) Xg-1 Assault Configuration
(2) Fire-Control System
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(3) Advanced SLAM
(5) Ion Cannon
Points 61

(46) Colonel Jendon
(11) Emperor Palpatine
Points 57

(37) Lieutenant Karsabi
(0) Xg-1 Assault Configuration
(2) Fire-Control System
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(3) Advanced SLAM
(5) Ion Cannon
Points 59

(23) Academy Pilot
Points 23

Total points: 200

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

So, I’m looking at Gunboats and trying to figure out what to do with them. Anyone got any squads of doom to share? Two plus Vessary ought to be cool but i’m struggling to make the Gunboats a decent secondary threat.

Some good suggestions here:

 

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12 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Karsabi isn't going to be worth taking until he is either cheaper than a Rho or gets an extra slot to compensate for his non-ability.

Is Karsabi's ability just badly designed? Or aren't we getting the point of it?
Can we find a point to it?

If you aren't going to get a shot this round, his ability offers nothing, since you don't care if you end up with zero, one, or several disarm tokens. They go at the end of the round while stress doesn't, so there is no benefit to exchange them.

If you are going to get a shot, then there are three scenarios when he can trigger his ability:

  • After SLAM:
    He replaces the disarm token with a stress token, making it impossible to trigger Advanced SLAM for an action.
    This would only make sense if you have SLAMmed with OS-1 and don't have a lock on the target or ordnance available, and then you want to fire with your primaries?
    Perhaps you slammed thru debris and gained stress, making it impossible to trigger Advanced SLAM anyway, so you rather fire your primary and end up with two stress tokens? That sounds bad, especially for the gunboat's dial.
    Unless I am missing any other interaction with OS-1, I don't see Karsabi designed for this scenario.

    With XG-1 you don't need locks or munitions to fire your cannon after a SLAM, and I am not sure anyone would want to fire their primaries instead of their equipped cannon? Perhaps this is to allow firing ordnance after SLAMming, but then you'd need to somehow have the correct token to fire it (Focus for rockets, Lock for the others), given by some other game effect or got from a previous round, since you don't have access to Advanced SLAM to get it.
     
  • After Reload:
    With OS-1, you move, reload, get disarm but you can still fire your ordnance. Since you have reloaded, you must have ordnance available. You would only want to use Karsabi's ability here if your ordnance is out of range, or you don't have the correct token for it, and want to fire with your primaries.
    With XG-1, you move, reload, and get disarm. You would want to use Karsabi here to be able to fire your ordnance or primaries (if your cannon is out of range or out of arc).  Again, you would need to have the correct token for your ordnance from a previous round or some other effect.
  • After SLAM -> Advanced SLAM -> Reload:
    With OS-1 this allows you to fire your ordnance (need the get token somehow), since the configuration wouldn't normally let you attack with two disarm tokens. You end up with a stress token, but perhaps this is worth it.
    With XG-1 this allows you to fire your cannon, since the configuration wouldn't normally let you attack with two disarm tokens. You end up with a stress token, but perhaps this is worth it.

In general, all these scenarios mean that Karsabi is wanting to be very aggressive to make most of his ability. He wants to attack even when he is lacking enough action economy to make most of those attacks.
He will be getting most use of it in XG-1 configuration, with cannon plus ordnance. He'll be able to always have something to fire, but don't expect to double modify it.
With so much stress, he'll be limited to speed 2 most of the time.
The lack of action economy and the low initiative mean that he'll be lacking the correct Lock token most of the time. Perhaps, then, he will need to limit himself to ordnance that requires no locks? That means, basically, Proton Rockets (since XG-1 wouldn't allow for Barrage Rockets). But Proton Rockets are bullseye range 1 only, and the gunboat isn't great at getting small ships on its bullseye. So this is only effective against large ships.

What cannon would go well with Proton Rockets? Discarding both Beam weapons, because it would mean that the gunboat would have no teeth at all unless it can release the rockets, we are limited to Ion and Heavy.
Heavy is, again, bullseye, and we know how difficult it to fire that off. So that leaves us with Ion.

It could make sense to have a Ion+Proton Rockets XG-1 Karsabi?
Ionize your large target, then get to range 1 and release rockets. Then every round after that, you move blue and reload, replacing the disarm token with stress. Then you can either keep firing your ion cannon, if out of range of the rockets, or keep pound your target with the rockets.

I am not so sure. The lack of action economy means that you are going to be attacking with no modifiers most of the time because you will be wanting to reload your munitions.
The Ion Cannon in 2.0 has it much harder to actually ionize anything since you need land two uncancelled hits to actually assign a token. Given that large ships require 3 tokens, it's unlikely that you are going to make it work unless in the exceptional rare case that you roll 4 hits at range 1 and the opponent rolls blanks.
It doesn't look like a good idea in general.

Do you people see some other combination of Configuration/Cannon/Ordnance to make Karsabi useful?
Is he just supposed to be loaded up with XG-1 + Ion + Torpedoes/Missiles and just wander around the playmat shooting at everything that gets in front of him, by trading disarm to stress in order to allow for the shot?
Will he become more useful the day that a better damaging cannon is released? Or will all gunboat pilots in general become more useful, shadowing Karsabi anyway?

Edited by Azrapse

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7 hours ago, Azrapse said:

After SLAM:

  • He replaces the disarm token with a stress token, making it impossible to trigger Advanced SLAM for an action.
    This would only make sense if you have SLAMmed with OS-1 and don't have a lock on the target or ordnance available, and then you want to fire with your primaries?
    Perhaps you slammed thru debris and gained stress, making it impossible to trigger Advanced SLAM anyway, so you rather fire your primary and end up with two stress tokens? That sounds bad, especially for the gunboat's dial.
    Unless I am missing any other interaction with OS-1, I don't see Karsabi designed for this scenario.
     released? Or will all gunboat pilots in general become more useful, shadowing Karsabi anyway?

I don't think this works, as Karsabi cannot use his "ability" while stressed.  Though even if it did, it wouldn't be worth double stressing a gunboat.

It's too late to fix his ability, so the only option left to make him worth taking is to give him an additional mod or talent slot, and that slot becomes his ability.

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Personally, what I'd do with Karsabi is reduce his points to the same as a Rho, but remove his talent slot.  If he breaks the meta, points could always be adjusted again.

7 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Is Karsabi's ability just badly designed? Or aren't we getting the point of it?
Can we find a point to it?

This is probably known to many folks.  Karsabi's exact same ability used to be at least OK in 1e, but that was because XG-1 and Heavy Laser Cannon worked differently.  When HLC was full arc, and when XG-1 didn't let you attack while disarmed with an expensive cannon, Karsabi was the way to make it work.  SLAM into stress rather than Disarm, still get a big cannon shot.  I don't recall if there were really any other uses for it.

But in 2e, both XG-1 and HLC changed radically, and now his ability is kind of missing a purpose.  There isn't really a reason not to just take the disarm token, since XG-1 still lets you get mostly-full attack dice on any cannon, and HLC are so hard to line up anyhow.  I guess Karsabi can SLAM into stress into a primary weapon attack, but meh?  Reload/Primary at Range 1 isn't too trash with just Proton Torpedo.  But it really doesn't seem like it's worth 2 points more than a Rho.

If they weren't going to change his ability, FFG could have given him Initiative 4.  That was the other thing 1e Karsabi did over a 1e Rho: PS 5 instead of PS 4.  There's no way they'd change it now, but if this is the direction they'd gone, I think it would have been kinda cool.  Vynder would still probably be seen more, due to a really nice ability, but Karsabi would have a niche, despite a useless ability, due to being a cheaper Init 4.

Edited by theBitterFig

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41 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Personally, what I'd do with Karsabi is reduce his points to the same as a Rho, but remove his talent slot. 

He'd have to be cheaper than a Rho for him to ever see play if he didn't have a talent.

Let's face it, the gunboat only has three pilot options.  Let's hope we get Stele in a year or two when they finally get around to re-releasing Imperial ships.  Stele would make a good gunboat pilot for the proton torps.

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21 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

He'd have to be cheaper than a Rho for him to ever see play if he didn't have a talent.

I can't agree to that.  It sometimes happens that folks bring higher-init Generics without filling the talent slots.  Dude would technically be a strict upgrade on a Rho who didn't fill their talent slot.  The cases where it'd make sense are few, but that'd be fine for essentially a 0-point Talent.

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Karsabi could be the same price as a Rho tbh and would be worth taking for the million to one shot you use her ability.

I wanna try this out:

Hammer and Anvil (197)
Maarek Stele — TIE Advanced x1	46
Ruthless	1
Fire-Control System	2
Ship Total: 49
Half Points: 25 Threshold: 3
 	
Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Xg-1 Assault Configuration	0
Ion Cannon	5
Ship Total: 37
Half Points: 19 Threshold: 4
 	
Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Xg-1 Assault Configuration	0
Ion Cannon	5
Ship Total: 37
Half Points: 19 Threshold: 4
 	
Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Xg-1 Assault Configuration	0
Ion Cannon	5
Ship Total: 37
Half Points: 19 Threshold: 4
 	
Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Xg-1 Assault Configuration	0
Ion Cannon	5
Ship Total: 37
Half Points: 19 Threshold: 4

Ion is great and Ruthless Stele doesn't need offensive mods as desperately. 

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23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I can't agree to that.  It sometimes happens that folks bring higher-init Generics without filling the talent slots.  Dude would technically be a strict upgrade on a Rho who didn't fill their talent slot.  The cases where it'd make sense are few, but that'd be fine for essentially a 0-point Talent.

Eh, I'd still take the Rho with the empty talent, for the same reason that I'm not going to put jamming beam into an empty cannon slot.  A useless ability doesn't become non-useless just because it is free.

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9 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Eh, I'd still take the Rho with the empty talent, for the same reason that I'm not going to put jamming beam into an empty cannon slot.  A useless ability doesn't become non-useless just because it is free.

I mean, there's times I'll do something out of spite, too, so I kinda get it.

But comparing to a Jamming Beam, Karsabi doesn't require me to get out an extra card, and the option to have a stress and a primary weapon shot instead of a disarm seems like it'd be more likely than a Jamming Beam being useful.  If your only secondary weapon on Karsabi is a Proton Torpedo, I can kinda see that being useful every now and again.  Not worth 2 points over a Rho, but if it was the same cost...

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21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, there's times I'll do something out of spite, too, so I kinda get it.

But comparing to a Jamming Beam, Karsabi doesn't require me to get out an extra card, and the option to have a stress and a primary weapon shot instead of a disarm seems like it'd be more likely than a Jamming Beam being useful.  If your only secondary weapon on Karsabi is a Proton Torpedo, I can kinda see that being useful every now and again.  Not worth 2 points over a Rho, but if it was the same cost...

I guess if I'm running a Rho I'm probably running at least two, and I'd rather have the symmetry.  It's sad that his ability is so terrible that in this hypothetical future scenario where he gets even cheaper that my spite would still likely never impact any game, ever.  Give him double talents and make Saturation Salvo cheaper and maybe he'll see use for the talents.  That or introduce talents that disable weapons that do not also give out stress.

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36 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

Give him double talents and make Saturation Salvo cheaper and maybe he'll see use for the talents.  That or introduce talents that disable weapons that do not also give out stress.

I guess my point was that there are kind of two directions within the points adjustment framework: you could give Karsabi stuff to justify his higher cost than a Rho, or you could take stuff away to justify an equal price.

I kinda prefer the take stuff away, since I think his ability might be an interesting option at 0 points, but never worth 2.

As to giving him extras... I feel like a Cannon slot would be the best one to give him.  I don't think there's any double-talent options which are that interesting, and an extra cannon would allow two things.  First would be a double-cannon build on an XG-1.  With HLC and Ion Cannon, there'd be a reason to maybe take the stress instead of a Disarm token, to get an extra red die if you get bullseye.  Second would be to put a cannon on him with OS-1.  The kinda rare situation of wanting to fire a primary weapon instead of being disarmed gets better with an attached Ion Cannon or such.

But do I really want to spend 7 points over a Rho to maybe fire an Ion Cannon on an OS-1?  This is why I keep coming back to fewer options at the same cost as a Rho.

That's just how I take my coffee, I guess.

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2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I guess my point was that there are kind of two directions within the points adjustment framework: you could give Karsabi stuff to justify his higher cost than a Rho, or you could take stuff away to justify an equal price.

I kinda prefer the take stuff away, since I think his ability might be an interesting option at 0 points, but never worth 2.

As to giving him extras... I feel like a Cannon slot would be the best one to give him.  I don't think there's any double-talent options which are that interesting, and an extra cannon would allow two things.  First would be a double-cannon build on an XG-1.  With HLC and Ion Cannon, there'd be a reason to maybe take the stress instead of a Disarm token, to get an extra red die if you get bullseye.  Second would be to put a cannon on him with OS-1.  The kinda rare situation of wanting to fire a primary weapon instead of being disarmed gets better with an attached Ion Cannon or such.

But do I really want to spend 7 points over a Rho to maybe fire an Ion Cannon on an OS-1?  This is why I keep coming back to fewer options at the same cost as a Rho.

That's just how I take my coffee, I guess.

I would argue that if one pilot is getting double cannons they all should.  Also, sure the EPTs are pretty slim right now, but at least that would be an obvious use for the pilot and would enable him to do something unique, befitting of that dot in front of his name.

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Right, two somewhat different squads to test on Thursday. C&c welcome and encouraged!

(39) Major Vynder
(0) Xg-1 Assault Configuration
(2) Fire-Control System
(3) Advanced SLAM
(2) Trick Shot
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
(5) Ion Cannon
Points 57

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Xg-1 Assault Configuration
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(2) Fire-Control System
(5) Ion Cannon
(1) Munitions Failsafe
Points 52

(86) Colonel Vessery
(5) Juke
(0) Jamming Beam
Points 91

Total points: 200

and

 

(46) Colonel Jendon
(4) ST-321
(2) Fire-Control System
(0) Jamming Beam
Points 52

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(2) Fire-Control System
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(3) Advanced SLAM
Points 49

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(2) Fire-Control System
(3) Advanced SLAM
Points 49

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(2) Fire-Control System
(12) Proton Torpedoes
(3) Advanced SLAM
Points 49

Total points: 199

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7 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

(46) Colonel Jendon
(4) ST-321
(2) Fire-Control System
(0) Jamming Beam
Points 52

Jendon's ability, ST-321 and FCS all kinda do the same. I'd swap out FCS for a hull upgrade, since you have a point left anyway.

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I would love to fly a list like vader + two gunboats or Defender + two gunboats.

Which upgrades I should put in the gunbies?

My first attemp:

TIE Advanced x1 - •Darth Vader - 74
    •Darth Vader - Black Leader (65)
        Afterburners (6)
        Hate (3)

Alpha-class Star Wing - Nu Squadron Pilot - 57
    Nu Squadron Pilot - (32)
        Advanced Sensors (10)
        Proton Torpedoes (12)
        Advanced SLAM (3)
        Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Alpha-class Star Wing - Nu Squadron Pilot - 57
    Nu Squadron Pilot - (32)
        Advanced Sensors (10)
        Proton Torpedoes (12)
        Advanced SLAM (3)
        Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Total: 188/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Edited by DexterV

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I was thinking I might try two cheap boats and an Aggressor with Ion Cannon. 

Darth Vader (65)

  • Hate (3)
  • Fire-Control System (2)
  • Afterburners (6)

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)

  • Xg-1 (0)
  • Ion Cannon (5)
  • Advanced SLAM (3)
  • Fire-Control System (2)

Nu Squadron Pilot (32)

  • Xg-1 (0)
  • Ion Cannon (5)
  • Advanced SLAM (3)
  • Fire-Control System (2)

Sienar Specialist (30)

  • Ion Cannon Turret (4)
  • Veteran Turret Gunner (6)

200/200

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13 minutes ago, DexterV said:

I would love to fly a list like vader + two gunboats or Defender + two gunboats.

Which upgrades I should put in the gunbies?

My first attemp:

TIE Advanced x1 - •Darth Vader - 74
    •Darth Vader - Black Leader (65)
        Afterburners (6)
        Hate (3)

Alpha-class Star Wing - Nu Squadron Pilot - 57
    Nu Squadron Pilot - (32)
        Advanced Sensors (10)
        Proton Torpedoes (12)
        Advanced SLAM (3)
        Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Alpha-class Star Wing - Nu Squadron Pilot - 57
    Nu Squadron Pilot - (32)
        Advanced Sensors (10)
        Proton Torpedoes (12)
        Advanced SLAM (3)
        Os-1 Arsenal Loadout (0)

Total: 188/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

I want to try this if and when I get back on an Extended binge:

Unnamed Squadron (200)
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced x1	65
Hate	3
Afterburners	6
Ship Total: 74
Half Points: 37 Threshold: 3
 	
Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Fire-Control System	2
Adv. Proton Torpedoes	6
Advanced SLAM	3
Xg-1 Assault Configuration	0
Ion Cannon	5
Ship Total: 48
Half Points: 24 Threshold: 4
 	
Nu Squadron Pilot — Alpha-class Star Wing	32
Fire-Control System	2
Adv. Proton Torpedoes	6
Advanced SLAM	3
Xg-1 Assault Configuration	0
Ion Cannon	5
Ship Total: 48
Half Points: 24 Threshold: 4
 	
Gideon Hask — TIE/ln Fighter	30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 2

 

 

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