Fleet Officer

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Just sent this question off to them. We'll see what they say.

"This issue has cropped up before, but the recent preview of the new "fleet officer" upgrade card has brought it up again. Is a ship considered to be within range of itself? Can the card target the ship it is on?

Related to that card, the wording on similar cards usually says the targets should be "at" a particular range, but fleet officer says "within" a given range. As these are now defined terms in the latest FAQ, that radically changes the usefulness of the card, not to mention the intuitive expectations of the player base as to how the card works. Was this choice of words intentional, or an oversight and it should be "at"?"

[Buhallin 4,563]

I think the exclusion of the word "another" is somewhat irrelevant, as you wouldn't refer to yourself as a friend to you. IMHO, in this context, I think the words "friendly" and "another" are synonymous. And before anyone dives into the "but that could mean enemy ships too" argument, there are no cards that allow you to pass a good token (focus, evade, TL) to an enemy, only stress. That's not what I meant at all.

The concept of a model being friendly to itself for the purpose of effects is very common.  Honestly, most miniatures games I've played include it.  That doesn't prove anything, since this is X-wing and most other miniatures games, but the context you're declaring is basically invented from whole cloth.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

I think the exclusion of the word "another" is somewhat irrelevant, as you wouldn't refer to yourself as a friend to you. IMHO, in this context, I think the words "friendly" and "another" are synonymous. And before anyone dives into the "but that could mean enemy ships too" argument, there are no cards that allow you to pass a good token (focus, evade, TL) to an enemy, only stress. That's not what I meant at all.

The concept of a model being friendly to itself for the purpose of effects is very common.  Honestly, most miniatures games I've played include it.  That doesn't prove anything, since this is X-wing and most other miniatures games, but the context you're declaring is basically invented from whole cloth.

 

I understand the concept of "friendly forces" in other games, but this is the first game I've found that uses "you" to signify a specific, single element. I guess we wait for a response to Forgottenlore's email.

[VanorDM 11,599]

They did neither, so to me, it can effectively go both ways, just like Jan Crew ability.

Yeah Jan (crew) has the same issue doesn't it. It just says Friendly doesn't say you or another. So the "is a ship in range 1 of itself" will effect Jan (crew) as well.

 

I missed the Swarm Tactics debate, but I assume that prior to the card being changed, some were arguing that they could target themselves to avoid the chain effect lowering pilot skills to others around them

Yes on both counts. The idea was that you could use it on yourself to avoid lowering the PS of another ship. But they changed the wording on the card so it's a moot point now.

 

IMHO, in this context, I think the words "friendly" and "another" are synonymous.

Friendly is clearly defined as any ship on your side, so another needs to be specified. If that wasn't true, then there would be no need for that word to be used on other cards.

Of course FFG might very well rule that you are not in range 1 of yourself, or that Friendly implies 'another' but until they do either one of those things we really can't know how Jan Ors (crew) or Fleet Officer should work.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

IMHO, in this context, I think the words "friendly" and "another" are synonymous.

Friendly is clearly defined as any ship on your side, so another needs to be specified. If that wasn't true, then there would be no need for that word to be used on other cards.

Of course FFG might very well rule that you are not in range 1 of yourself, or that Friendly implies 'another' but until they do either one of those things we really can't know how Jan Ors (crew) or Fleet Officer should work.

 

I think that's the crux of the confusion right there. We've got "you" and "your" ship clear and defined. If they rule that "friendly" is always going to refer to "another" ship, they're going to eliminate the issue immediately, and probably future issues. The key to the wording on any card is to leave absolutely no doubt as to the meaning and intention of how's it's to be used. You shouldn't be able to read a card and think "but that would also imply that this could happen". 

The biggest problem a game designer has, is how their idea and intention is going to be interpreted and played. When I've designed games in the past, I've tried to be very clear with my wording, but there's always someone, that will have a different take on it, and interpret it in a different way to the way I intended. Which is all part of the playtesting and design process. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

I suppose we should be thankful that X-Wing isn't owned by Games Workshop, because then we would be seeing an update that would require the purchase of a new core set just to get an updated rulebook. 

[Mace Windu 1,173]

The questions that should be posed to FFG should be thus and a simple yes or no answer should be provided:

 

1) Is the active ship within range 1 of itself? Y/N

 

2) Can the active ship declare itself as a “Friendly Ship”? Y/N

 

Question 1: My opinion is that “Range 1” is all of the area beyond the edge of the ship base within 100mm (or 10cm for those who don’t know what millimetres are) of the ship base. Nowhere is it stated that range 1 ever “extends” beyond those 100mm that is the first section of the range ruler with a big number 1 on it. And at no point when you are referring to the active ship are you instructed to put the range ruler within the bounds of the edge of the base.

 

Question 2:When referring to “Freindlies” in a force or squadron or group in a game, whatever your ‘Army’ is called I think that each other miniature is friendly to one another. I cannot however believe that a ship or singular entity within that army could ever be friendly with itself.

 

I will wait with baited breath to see the official response to Forgottenlore’s email to them and one hopes that the answer is short and concise rather than some of the more convoluted resolutions we have received before.

[RowUrBoatGently 58]

Making a late contribution here..

 

As Hinnyboy has pointed out elsewhere:

 

Fleet Officer says "Aciton: Choose up to 2 friendly ships within Range 1-2.." 

 

FAQ page 4:

 

“At” vs. “within” 

“At” means the closest part of the target’s base touches that range section. 

For example, when attacking a ship whose base touches both Range 2 and 

Range 3, that ship is at Range 2. 

“Within” means wholly within. For example, normal tournament deployment is 

“within Range 1 of the table edge.” 

 

As I interpret it you cannot be wtihin range 1-2 from yourself, meaning Fleet Officer cannot be used to assign a Focus token to yourself.

Edited June 19, 2014 by tinnitus

[negative9 231]

you are not in range 1 of yourself.  get the range ruler out.  point it in any direction from you.  does the ruler overlap your ship? no?  then you are not in that range band. 

[dvorm 1,058]

you are not in range 1 of yourself.  get the range ruler out.  point it in any direction from you.  does the ruler overlap your ship? no?  then you are not in that range band. 

Looking through the rulebook, nowhere does it say the ruler has to point (away) from you. Page 9 "range ruler" says it points towards the "intended target". Which happens to be yourself. End result: The entire length of the base is underneath the range ruler.

[VanorDM 11,599]

If you want to really get technical about it, at least a small portion of the active ships base is under the range ruler when you measure. That means you could say that anything within range X or at range 1 would as a matter of RAW include the active ship.

[treybert 893]

Sorry to bump and old thread, but I was curious on this subject and noticed this in another thread: 

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/111525-targeting-coordinator-on-yourself/?hl=%2Bfleet+%2Bofficer#entry1166999

 

Quote

Hello,

In response to your rules question:

Rule Question:
With the Crew upgrade card "Targeting Coordinator", can you choose yourself? That is, can a corvette using Targeting Coordinator choose itself as a "friendly ship at Range 1-2"?

Thank you for your assistance,

 

Yes. A card would explicitly call out “choose another friendly ship” if you were not allowed to target yourself.

This is a way for a CR90 to acquire a target lock without spending an action (and just spending energy).

Thanks for asking,

Frank Brooks
Associate Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games 

 

Does that mean Fleet Officer can be used on yourself?

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

Sorry to bump and old thread, but I was curious on this subject and noticed this in another thread: 

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/111525-targeting-coordinator-on-yourself/?hl=%2Bfleet+%2Bofficer#entry1166999

 

Quote

Hello,

In response to your rules question:

Rule Question:

With the Crew upgrade card "Targeting Coordinator", can you choose yourself? That is, can a corvette using Targeting Coordinator choose itself as a "friendly ship at Range 1-2"?

Thank you for your assistance,

 

Yes. A card would explicitly call out “choose another friendly ship” if you were not allowed to target yourself.

This is a way for a CR90 to acquire a target lock without spending an action (and just spending energy).

Thanks for asking,

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games 

 

Does that mean Fleet Officer can be used on yourself?

Yes.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus 877]

Fleet Officer reads "Choose up to 2 friendly ships..." It does not read "Choose up to 2 other friendly ships..." Therefore, you can assign one Focus token to yourself, and the other to another ship, or you can assign one Focus token to each of up to two other friendly ships.

 

Any time a card does not specify "another friendly ship" it can be applied to the ship using the card's ability.

[Marinealver 8,073]

You are not at Range 1-2 of yourself.

Actually on page 18 of the FAQ from September there is an answer to that question.

 

 

 

Q: Is a ship considered to be at Range 1 of itself?

A: Yes.

 

So the question still remains. Actually 2 questions remain.

 

1. Can fleet officer target itself.
2. Can fleet officer target the same ship twice.

For #1 that's a little tricky but for #2 not so much

Choose up to 2 friendly ships and assign 1 focus token. So if you say picked the same ship twice it still gets only one focus token. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by Marinealver

[oneway 1,878]

Message back from FFG says yes on targeting own ship. Saw this in another thread.. I think it's obvious you can't target the same ship twice, by its own wording, and honestly, why would you choose the same target to only get one effect.. seems silly to me.. so give one to the vessel the Officer is on, and a close 'friendly'.

[Buhallin 4,563]

For #1 that's a little tricky but for #2 not so much

 

How is this tricky?  It can target up to two ships at Range 1-2.  A ship is at range 1 of itself, we know this from several sources.  What is the doubt as to the answer here?

[trustybroom 570]

 

For #1 that's a little tricky but for #2 not so much

 

How is this tricky?  It can target up to two ships at Range 1-2.  A ship is at range 1 of itself, we know this from several sources.  What is the doubt as to the answer here?

 

 

Because Fleet Officer states within range 1-2. The FAQ says "at" which is entirely different from "within" in X-Wing rules. Sadly we'll have to wait for another FAQ.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

 

 

For #1 that's a little tricky but for #2 not so much

 

How is this tricky?  It can target up to two ships at Range 1-2.  A ship is at range 1 of itself, we know this from several sources.  What is the doubt as to the answer here?

 

 

Because Fleet Officer states within range 1-2. The FAQ says "at" which is entirely different from "within" in X-Wing rules. Sadly we'll have to wait for another FAQ.

 

 

If we make a strict reading of the Fleet Officer card, for a ship to be eligible by it, its whole base has to be fully inside range 2.

 

However, I'm on the opinion that a Dev. slightly slipped on this one, since no other ability/upgrade card (IIRC) has such range restriction. Furthermore, every player in every game I played since it was revealed, instinctively measures FO's range as 'At' instead of 'Within', for all that matters.

 

But that definitely needs a FAQ (or errata). However, it wouldn't surprise me if the 'Within' limitation ends being intentional, given the 'general tendency' from FFG to over-nerf imperial abilities...

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

Well, I gotta say I agree with Buhallin on this one. We know a ship is at range 1 of itself. Now the question is, is a ship "within" range one of itself. I'll answer this by asking a question:

Does any part of a ships base extend beyond range 1 of itself?

No... So it should be within range 1 of itself also. Seems odd, but based on the precedent set by being at range 1 of yourself then it should work.

[trustybroom 570]

Well, I gotta say I agree with Buhallin on this one. We know a ship is at range 1 of itself. Now the question is, is a ship "within" range one of itself. I'll answer this by asking a question:

Does any part of a ships base extend beyond range 1 of itself?

No... So it should be within range 1 of itself also. Seems odd, but based on the precedent set by being at range 1 of yourself then it should work.

 

Well, within means that the ship has to reside entirely within range band 1 or range band 2 when measuring. With "at" you just need to touch that point. It depends entirely on how FFG does the measuring.

 

If you just slap a range ruler down next to a ship, the ship itself touches range 1, so it's at range one of itself. The only way you can be "within" range 1 of yourself is if they would allow you to measure distance by laying the range ruler on top of your own ship. That's a call that only FFG can really make, 'cause the rules as written don't really support it.

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

Well, I gotta say I agree with Buhallin on this one. We know a ship is at range 1 of itself. Now the question is, is a ship "within" range one of itself. I'll answer this by asking a question:

Does any part of a ships base extend beyond range 1 of itself?

No... So it should be within range 1 of itself also. Seems odd, but based on the precedent set by being at range 1 of yourself then it should work.

 

Well, within means that the ship has to reside entirely within range band 1 or range band 2 when measuring. With "at" you just need to touch that point. It depends entirely on how FFG does the measuring.

 

If you just slap a range ruler down next to a ship, the ship itself touches range 1, so it's at range one of itself. The only way you can be "within" range 1 of yourself is if they would allow you to measure distance by laying the range ruler on top of your own ship. That's a call that only FFG can really make, 'cause the rules as written don't really support it.

Right, within means wholly within. Draw a circle around a ship that shows where range 1 extends to around the ship. Is the ship completely within this circle? Of course it is. So it is wholly within the range 1 band.

I agree this should be in the faq to alleviate any debate, But you can't tell me that their ruling for a ship being at range 1 of itself doesn't hint that the ruling would also apply to within.

[trustybroom 570]

 

 

Well, I gotta say I agree with Buhallin on this one. We know a ship is at range 1 of itself. Now the question is, is a ship "within" range one of itself. I'll answer this by asking a question:

Does any part of a ships base extend beyond range 1 of itself?

No... So it should be within range 1 of itself also. Seems odd, but based on the precedent set by being at range 1 of yourself then it should work.

 

Well, within means that the ship has to reside entirely within range band 1 or range band 2 when measuring. With "at" you just need to touch that point. It depends entirely on how FFG does the measuring.

 

If you just slap a range ruler down next to a ship, the ship itself touches range 1, so it's at range one of itself. The only way you can be "within" range 1 of yourself is if they would allow you to measure distance by laying the range ruler on top of your own ship. That's a call that only FFG can really make, 'cause the rules as written don't really support it.

 

Right, within means wholly within. Draw a circle around a ship that shows where range 1 extends to around the ship. Is the ship completely within this circle? Of course it is. So it is wholly within the range 1 band.

I agree this should be in the faq to alleviate any debate, But you can't tell me that their ruling for a ship being at range 1 of itself doesn't hint that the ruling would also apply to within.

 

Well, this is what within actually means:

 

If the entire base of a ship is between points A & B, it is within range 1. And if the entire base is between B & C it is within range 2. If part of a base is between A & B and the other part is between B & C then it is within range 1-2.

 

Just a single point of a base needs to touch any point of range 1 including the end to be "at" range 1. The only way a ship can be within range 1 of itself is to lay the ruler on top of itself. Remember, all ranges in this game are determined by the range ruler itself. So, if FFG allows you to lay the ruler on top of a ship when measuring, yes it can be "within" range 1 of itself. If not, then it can't. 

[VanorDM 11,599]

So, if FFG allows you to lay the ruler on top of a ship when measuring, yes it can be "within" range 1 of itself. If not, then it can't.

No, doesn't need to go that far. Just need FFG to say that a ship is always at or within range 1 of itself.

[Parravon 5,217]

 

So, if FFG allows you to lay the ruler on top of a ship when measuring, yes it can be "within" range 1 of itself. If not, then it can't.

No, doesn't need to go that far. Just need FFG to say that a ship is always at or within range 1 of itself.

 

That would be the easiest and most logical answer to the problem. Of course they could do a complete about-face and say ships can no longer be at or within range 1 of themselves. 

[Buhallin 4,563]

Is anyone actually playing Fleet Officer as 'within'?