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DreDrew82

New Player - Many Questions

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I have several questions. Any help is appreciated.

From my previous posts, I take it that after the dice are rolled, the steps proceed as follows:

- terror effects

- spell cards

- discard die

- focus or assist

Please let me know if this is incorrect.

1. Spell cards which secure dice are played after the terror effect goes off. Can spells like Voice of Ra be played before the terror effect is determined so as to change a terror die and avoid triggering that effect?

2. I have two dice left in my dice pool. I roll them and fail the task. Can I then use a spell which would secure those two dice - which would mean I would have nothing to discard - continue on with my turn, remove the two dice, reroll them and complete the adventure? Essentially can a spell card be used to get around the die discard phase?

3. I am on an adventure card with a monster. I roll the dice, fail to complete any tasks, but then play the Bind Monster spell to defeat the monster. Do I still need to discard a die, or does the monster count as a completed task?

4. Similar question, can I use the Bind Monster spell on a monster that is on a different adventure card than my investigator? And if so, does that still count as a successfully completed task, assuming it counts in the above scenario?

5. Can you add and roll the red/yellow dice at any point in your turn? Or do they have to be added before rolling the green dice? For instance, I roll the green dice, don't like my results, can I play an item to give me red/yellow/both at that point to allow me to roll the new dice to add to my results before determining if a task has been completed?

I feel I have been very wordy. Please let me know if any clarification is needed.

Edited by DreDrew82

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Drew,

 

     It is probably better to be a bit more wordy if it makes it clearer to the reader. ;)   As to your inquiries, I'll answer each one in-turn:

 

1.  Yes, you can absolutely change the die BEFORE the Terror effect.

 

2.  I would say you MAY NOT "park" the dice on a Spell in order to use them again...that's very gamey to me.

 

3.  You may use the Bind Monster Spell and take the Monster, but you will still fail the Adventure.

 

4.  I've heard people play it this way....in essence, using a Spell to affect another Adventure card...I can't weigh-in on this one as I'll never play that way, regardless of the actual ruling.

 

5.  I don't believe that you MUST roll them at the beginning of the turn...I know that Richard Launius did just that in one of the games we played at Arkham Nights a few years ago.

 

Cheers,

Joe

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Thank you!   :)

 

To clarify #3.  You are on an adventure card with two tasks - one of them is a monster token.  You roll and your results will not complete either task.  You discard the spell to kill the monster.  At this point, you would discard a die for the failing roll and then proceed with the remaining dice in at attempt to complete the last task?

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As for n.3: if the monster token is a complete monster task (covering all requirements) and you use the spell to kill the monster (and the wording of the spell allows you to do so, which means it's worded "after rolling, discard this spell to..."), then you don't have to remove any die from your dice pool.

 

As for n.2: agreed with Joe that this is not the intent of spells, but I should check the rulebook to see if this actually is a loophole left open or not.

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Thanks Julia!  

 

As the rule-book states the player can only complete one task per roll, can the player roll the dice, play the spell to defeat the monster, and then use the dice to complete a task as well? Or would the user need to roll again so as not to complete two tasks at once?

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Number 2 doesn't make sense to me. The only way to remove those dice from the spell, as far as I'm aware, is to use those two dice with the current faces that you locked with the spell. You can't use the spell to free the dice to reroll because they count as being rolled with the locked side up.

 

For example, you rolled two 1-investigation results but needed two Peril. You use a spell to lock those dice so they aren't discarded. If you want to free those dice, you're going to be using them on a task as they are shown in the spell, not re-rolling. So if two investigations didn't complete the task so you locked them with the spell, well, they're still not going to pass that task when you use your spell, so you'll still fail the task and have to discard one, but you will have lost your spell as well as a die.

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Thank you for the response!

 

I may be confused on spells in general.  The rulebook states, "When a die is secured on a Spell card, it remains there until any player chooses to use it to complete a task, removes it from the spell to roll it (see “Removing Secured Dice” on page 14), or until another effect locks that die (see “Locked Dice” on page 12)."

 

I took this to mean that you could remove a die and roll it.  Do they not mean "roll" literally?

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The rulebook states, "When a die is secured on a Spell card, it remains there until any player chooses to use it to complete a task, removes it from the spell to roll it (see “Removing Secured Dice” on page 14), or until another effect locks that die (see “Locked Dice” on page 12)."

 

That's the probelm I thought I had to look at (and thanks for finding it!). Additionally, there's this FAQ entry:

 

"Before any roll, a player may remove some or all of the dice held on spells in order to roll them"

 

This seems to allow the same player who cast the spell to re-use the dice by readding them to the dice pool. This technically is not important unless you save the last two dice (or one die) of your pool to avoid being penalized by failing a task.

 

Thoughts on this one? Anyone?

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I think it's a loophole and is not playing the game as intended.  I expect the rulebook actually means to indicate 'other' investigators re-rolling dice locked on a spell.  In other words, you lock dice on a spell which can't be used for the adventure you're attempting to do, but you think another player might find useful for later use.  The next player starts his turn, and decides he would rather re-roll the spelled dice than use the results that were saved on it.  He removes the dice and adds it/them to his pool.  The spell is then discarded (and, essentially, wasted). 

 

Also, to comment on #4, I agree with the Prof.  I refuse to play that spells or unique items that kill monsters can be used on any adventure but the one that investigator is on, regardless of the official ruling in the FAQ.

Edited by xfoley8
DreDrew82, The Professor and Julia like this

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I think it's a loophole and is not playing the game as intended.

 

That's what I thought as well. I think the actual wording was written with the intention that even the original caster can use these dice, but with the idea that he cannot use them before his next turn. The actual wording creates a nasty little loophole.

 

I'll add this to the FAQ list, then, with the hope we can have an official ruling on this one.

 

Thanks Drew for spotting out the problem, and to all the other friends who shared their vision on the subject :)

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Julia,

 

If you would be so kind as to answer ~ in regards to the Bind Monster spell:

 

As the rule-book states the player can only complete one task per roll, can the player roll the dice, play the spell to defeat the monster, and then use the dice to complete a task as well? Or would the user need to roll again so as not to complete two tasks at once?

 

I realize this is a nit-picky question, but I could see it coming in to play if the investigator is on a top down adventure card and the first slot is a monster.

 

Thanks!

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If you would be so kind as to answer ~ in regards to the Bind Monster spell:

 

As the rule-book states the player can only complete one task per roll, can the player roll the dice, play the spell to defeat the monster, and then use the dice to complete a task as well? Or would the user need to roll again so as not to complete two tasks at once?

 

I realize this is a nit-picky question, but I could see it coming in to play if the investigator is on a top down adventure card and the first slot is a monster.

 

Thanks!

 

Using a monster-killer effect (Bind Monster, Flute of the Outer Gods as well) counts as completing a task, so you can either use that or dice to complete a task, can't do both (unless you're Amanda).

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Still thinking about the issue of re-using dice locked on spells.

 

Rules say that

 

If a failed roll forces the player to discard his last die, he fails the adventure

 

This is even more curious: you cast the spell after rolling (not after failing or succeeding at a task / adventure), so that actually this rule seems to imply that you can roll your last die, secure it on a spell and never fail the adventure because you were not forced to discard your last die.

 

Anyone that could point me to a rule saying "if a failed roll forced the player to discard his last die, or he has no more dice to roll, he fails the adventure"?

 

Thanks for help :)

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Thanks for re-checking the rules, Drew. Should re-check everything myself as well, hopefully in not too a long time.

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Similar question:

 

I had a focused die today which I no longer needed to complete any tasks on my card.  Do you have to play focused/assisted die as is, or can you add them back to the dice pool for rolling?

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Drew,

If you actually completed all of the tasks, the question is moot. However, once you've focused a die, I don't believe it may be rolled again for subsequent tasks by the player.

Cheers,

Joe

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Thanks Joe.  In this instance, I had focused a Investigation 3 and then wound up rolling an Investigation 4 which meant I no longer needed the 3.  I was hoping I could reroll it, but it sounds like that is not the case.  Thanks!

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Still thinking about the issue of re-using dice locked on spells.

 

Rules say that

 

If a failed roll forces the player to discard his last die, he fails the adventure

 

This is even more curious: you cast the spell after rolling (not after failing or succeeding at a task / adventure), so that actually this rule seems to imply that you can roll your last die, secure it on a spell and never fail the adventure because you were not forced to discard your last die.

 

Anyone that could point me to a rule saying "if a failed roll forced the player to discard his last die, or he has no more dice to roll, he fails the adventure"?

 

Thanks for help :)

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Sorry for some reason my previous post completely omitted my response.

What I was trying to say is that this game more than all of my others is....how do I put it?....rules light? I mean if you want to be a rules lawyer sure, there are nits to pic (none of the above count as those answers are all easily found in the basic rules.) but for anyone trying to just play the game as intended it's pretty basic.

Take the spell issue for example: Does anyone seriously not grasp how spells are intended to work? They are meant to hold die more effectively (and faster) than focussing, allow you to avoid terror effects, and inspire teamwork. They are not intended as a way to get around losing a die for failing to complete any task. I don't think people really need to be told that.

Also, you can use a spell to defeat a monster on a different adventure but since that is not the same as completing a task as an adventure that you're on you will still lose a die. Also note that if you use it on a monster that is locking a die you will not have access to that locked die until your next turn.

As for the Red and Yellow die the answer is right on the card! You may add them to your POOL whenever you play the card. This is, however, different from adding them to your ROLL. Again, I am not seeing what part of this is not explained in the basic rules.

Now I would like to ask a question if I may: Why is Elder Sign not more popular with you folks? I mean I play it with non-gamers and they love it and want to know why they can't buy it at target but when I bring it to open game night the gamers all want to play something else? Why?

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Xodarap,

 

thanks for the post. I agree with you, often when I find loopholes I play trying to imagine what the creator wanted to say instead of exploiting what the creator didn't see.

 

But I also think that loopholes should be identified and closed, and I hope the next FAQ will not only provide clarifications on confusing situations but will also close these loopholes.

 

For those who play the game "light-heartedly", as you said, no one of these entries will change a bit the way they play; but for those who spend hours arguing on legit moves (and there's quite a lot), having a coherent set of rules will end up endless discussions on reading, tweaking and interpreting the rules :)

 

As for the love for Elder Sign: I think the main problem with this game is that it's too easy. Often we spend 20 minutes setting up the game, play 5 minutes and win. Other games provide more challenge. I do hope, in case FFG decides to release another expansion, that the game will receive the difficulty boost it needs to become addictive :)

 

Just my two cents on the points you touched. Appreciated your comments, thanks :)

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Xodarap,

 

thanks for the post. I agree with you, often when I find loopholes I play trying to imagine what the creator wanted to say instead of exploiting what the creator didn't see.

 

But I also think that loopholes should be identified and closed, and I hope the next FAQ will not only provide clarifications on confusing situations but will also close these loopholes.

 

For those who play the game "light-heartedly", as you said, no one of these entries will change a bit the way they play; but for those who spend hours arguing on legit moves (and there's quite a lot), having a coherent set of rules will end up endless discussions on reading, tweaking and interpreting the rules :)

 

As for the love for Elder Sign: I think the main problem with this game is that it's too easy. Often we spend 20 minutes setting up the game, play 5 minutes and win. Other games provide more challenge. I do hope, in case FFG decides to release another expansion, that the game will receive the difficulty boost it needs to become addictive :)

 

Just my two cents on the points you touched. Appreciated your comments, thanks :)

 You're welcome!  Thanks for your post as well.  I think we see games alike when it comes to loopholes.  I try to close them with my players by explaining how to play from what I know and then using the book as a referrence.  Not to mention that I am deeply appreciative of having it in writing now that I "play games lightheartedly"! 

 

You may be right about why I love Elder Sign because for me it takes 5 minutes to set up and um......er.......wellllll......about 4 hours to play.

 

Then again we play more "solve the puzzle" than Elder Sign and sometimes it's just something that's on the table while we're hanging out and chatting but seriously you've beaten this game in 5 minutes??  B-But How?  God draw?  God themselves? Very strangely yet effectively loaded dice?  Ideatic memory combined with an uncanny knack for stochastic phenomena?  Odd yet beneficial slant to your table?  What??

 

An' I don't think this game needs to be any MORE addictive.  As is I'm just a bunch of tiny magnets, some duct tape, and a binder away from trying to haul the thing to work!

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:laughter: do not tempt me, I often wonder about forcing collegues to play instead of talking about illness and the old age coming. Definitely ES would represent an interesting variation from the usual routine.

 

As for the time... in one of our latest games we sealed Glaaki away in a 3-Mythos time (doom track at zero; investigators: Monterey, Kate, Jenny, Mandy). Clearly, we were a little lucky, but still, we win on average after 5.8 Mythos (let's say six) with on average 4 doomers on the doom track, so the game never lasts more than 25-30 minutes and it's usually never that challenging (lost only once in 38 games played)

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