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Knucklesamwich

Rebel ace's..... Imps are in trouble

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Nightbeast , Turr and Soontir are not synergistic. They are self contained skills. The rebels have Garven, Biggs, Dutch, Lando, Jan, Kyle, Roark and a bunch of unique crew that make very interesting synergies. The imps have Howl , Jonus who I rarely see used, and the space hippo pilots who I see a bit more. And on top of the Rebel dominance in number of sharing abilities they have very long ranges! Howl and Jonus are range one so you are forced to stay tight. That will be much more dangerous with munitions failsafe around the corner.

You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

He has 2 actions, by giving one of those to a teammates in range 1-2, he's doing what Dutch, Garven, Kyle, Lando or Cracken is doing, but in his own style. Instead of being only a TL, or a focus. It's an action, so the receiver can do whatever he needs to do, and since Vader is PS9, pretty much everybody has move so you have a clear view of the field. He's also very resiliant with 3 agi and 5 hit points so won't get destroyed soon. Also, if he,s left alone at the end of the battle, his pilot ability is still badass, you only lose the 2 pts you invested in SL. Compared to all the rebel ones that as soon as nobody is there to receive the token, just become regular pilot with a high PS.

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That means rebels have a bunch of nifty crew options that go on 2 ships

Okay... So Rebels have lots of Rebel-only crew options for only two ships. So this lessens the customization using crewmen.

I don't really feel like doing the math, but I am curious how many options for crewmen those two Rebel ships have, compared to how many crew options the Imperials have for their three. And we're talking about options, not necessarily competitive options, (if we are including the plethora of terrible Imperial/Rebel pilots as "options").

Then, factor in droids. Rebels may only have two ships that can take crew, but how many can take droids?

And? Droids somehow make the rebels inherently better?

Neither synergistic abilities nor more upgrade options make the Empire worse than the rebels. The Imperials have more pilots under 20 points than the rebels by a mile. And even more generic pilots. That gives them more customization by far. Name a rebel squad that can fit 6 named pilots on a team? It doesn't exist. They can barely fit 4, even with Z-95s. They have more 5 ship squad builds than the rebels by far. They have more agile ships than the rebels. Nearly every ship they have has better action options.(How many rebel ships have the largely redundant Focus and Target Lock as their only options.) I play Imperial. They're not crippled. They're not stagnant. If they had the support and upgrade options the rebels do they'd be broken. How hard is it to take down a Recon specialist Firespray? Now imagine what it would look like with Interceptors that can hold more focus tokens than Soontir Fel? Action passing to ships with actual options like focus evade and barrel roll is dangerous. An that's on the cheapest ship the empire has. Not the e-wing or b-wing where the cost is prohibitively high.

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You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

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You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

I suppose Each and every Rebel squad is running an action passer too?
Red Castle likes this

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You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

 

It can also mean that Imperials don't need an action passer as much as they claim. They have a very good one, they just don't use it.

 

EDIT: Also, I'm glad that for a unit to be good, it must not be in each and every team you build. There is enough choice and good units to make a build for your taste, not always the same 3 units. That would go into Overpowered territory.

Edited by Red Castle
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You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

I suppose Each and every Rebel squad is running an action passer too?

 

If not, then its a turreted ship...

 

I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

 

Everyone is saying the Phantomis the big threat. That was the same talk about interceptors back in Wave 2 before the Falcon neutered them.

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You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

 

It can also mean that Imperials don't need an action passer as much as they claim. They have a very good one, they just don't use it.

 

 

Agreed. All imp players are dumb as fook. If only they knew what you know eh? ;)

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You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

I suppose Each and every Rebel squad is running an action passer too?

If not, then its a turreted ship...

 

I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

 

Everyone is saying the Phantomis the big threat. That was the same talk about interceptors back in Wave 2 before the Falcon neutered them.

No it really isn't. It's that or X-wings and B-wings or a turret. Which basically means one of half the rebel ships.

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You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

 

It can also mean that Imperials don't need an action passer as much as they claim. They have a very good one, they just don't use it.

 

 

Agreed. All imp players are dumb as fook. If only they knew what you know eh? ;)

 

Really not what I meant.

 

I just said that Vader is one of the best action giver. I never said people were stupid not to use him. You can't deny that it's a very good one and a good option if you really want to pass action. But do you really need to pass action to have a good team? No. That's probably why we don't see him often in teams.

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How can Vader be a 'best' action giver for a point cost like that?

Bear in mind he sports a humble 2 attack dice.

 

It is for a reason no one picks Vader. Is that hard to understand?

 

Garven costs 5 points less and has a solid 3 red dice.

Dutch has a far better ability in-built and still costs less even with a turret.

Edited by Elkerlyc

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How can Vader be a 'best' action giver for a point cost like that?

Bear in mind he sports a humble 2 attack dice.

 

It is for a reason no one picks Vader. Is that hard to understand?

 

Garven costs 5 points less and has a solid 3 red dice.

Dutch has a far better ability in-built and still costs less even with a turret.

Vader is more manueverable, has a higher pilot skill, and better defenses than the mentioned pilots. He's not used because as good an action passer as he makes, Push the limit is a better option due to range restrictions. Dutch and Garven aren't action passers. Especially Garven due to his timing. He's a great support ship but about as adaptable in his use as toy screwdriver. He does one thing. He does it well, but clumsily. Dutch is better, but he's also clunky, and for all that hull andand shields he goes down fast and does minimal damage on the way out.

That isn't to say Vader is all that good. He's not. But he's a great action passer. Imperials just have a lot more low cost ships with EPT slots to put Push the limit on.

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Aminar; it seems you evade my point.

 

Why does no one pick Vader if he is as good as you claim?

 

I claim he is bad (for the points)

 

 

And it seems everyone and their grandmother agrees. You never see Vader.

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How can Vader be a 'best' action giver for a point cost like that?

Bear in mind he sports a humble 2 attack dice.

 

It is for a reason no one picks Vader. Is that hard to understand?

 

Garven costs 5 points less and has a solid 3 red dice.

Dutch has a far better ability in-built and still costs less even with a turret.

As an action giver, yes, I believe Vader is one of the best. Pole just got picked by Cracken though.

 

-Garven (26pts): Gives his focus when he uses it. But first he had to take a focus action himself and second, he must have an occasion to use it. It will happen very often, but not always. And the focus can come late in the combat phase when there is really no benefit anymore.

-Dutch (28pts with a ion turret, unless you really plan to use him without): Gives a TL when he also take a TL action. Very good, that's why in a thread yesterday I voted for him as the best support for the rebels. But again, you are limiting your action choice and gives no choice to the receiver.

-Cracken (19pts): Best one wihout contest. Very cheap and the receiver can do the action he wants. Only drawback is that he's not really hard to kill with 2 agi, 2 hull and 2 shield.

-Lando (44pts+) Gives an action but must do a green maneuver, that really limits is possibility and slow the team down since it's at range 1.

-Kyle (28pts+, easily 31pts): Range 3, but you are giving your token, not creating a new one. So you really should take Recon Specialist so you don't lose your action yourself. Also, again, you are limited to a focus.

 

-Vader+SL (31pts) You need to use an action to make it work but you have 2 every turn. So, you still can do whatever you want as an action (focus, TL, Barrel Roll, Evade, your choice) and give one to an ally at range 1-2 (he can also do whatever he wants Focus, Evade, Barrel Roll, boost, your choice!). It also happens during PS9, so, unless your opponent brought a PS9 also, you can pick the action you want depending on the situation. Have you ever tried Lorrir Banking Barrel Roll at PS9? You should.

 

So yeah, with Cracken, he's the one that gives the more liberty to the player to adjust his play depending on the situation. You can hate him or think he cost too much, but it is one of the best action giver in the game.

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I'm trying not to snark in this thread but its not easy. The Empire is behind by two Epic ship releases and that means crew, weapons, teams, pilots on whatever ship is the escort. The game has been balanced, up until this point. It will balance out once the Empire Epic release hits, but that's not for another 12 months or more...

A temporary loss of parity in releases does not necessarily imply the destruction of game balance.

Edited by Vorpal Sword
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I think the issue people are having is that rebels have more options to customize their ships then imperials, between droids and rebel only crew.

 

That or people want to fly imperial ships with rebels stats. That could be the issue too. If you take out the tie fighter imperial ships cost about the same as rebel. After rebel aces you will have 12 pt Zs which aside from the alpha strike and shooting before academy are a bit worse then a tie fighter but you will also have 15 point A-wings which are better then the tie fighter but cost 3 points more. After that on paper rebel ships generally appear to be better then imperials. They have shields, more HP, target lock, synergistic abilities, more customizational options, ways to keep other ships alive longer. (Note I am not saying rebel ships are better, I do play imperials, if I thought they were better I would switch to the scum)   If you don't like the Tie Fighter and don't want to run it you are looking at a 3-4 ship imperial list which on paper may not look as good as a 3-4 ship rebel list and depending on the list the imperials are alot harder to fly well.

 

Personally highly mobile ships don't do well in my meta. More then half the lists are running chewie and if you take out chewie you still have about 1/4th the lists running atleast 1 turreted Y-wing. Which is the shtick of the imperials. It doesn't stop me from running them and as soon as wave 4 hits I will be puttting outmaneuver on my ships. Based on this meta I really want to run rexel brath but he is a bit pricey.

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Well; if you feel a 'best action giver' can be in a fairly useless and overpriced  ship, yeah. You 'win' that argument.

But most people mean 'best' something like 'best/good value for points' and with clever squad building you can eek more out of that.

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You are forgetting one of the best action giver of the game: Darth Vader+Squad Leader.

 

 

 

 

Yeah. That must be the reason I see each and every Imperial squad using Vader! :ph34r:

 

I was pretty sure that on these Forums that every simply refuses to acknowledge the Advanced for anything, that said 31pts is a lot to spend just to pass an action and it probably isn't worth a 3rd of your points to make something else work

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I have tried Vader with squad leader and it just doesn't work. Vader needs TL and focus to be useful because with only two dice he has to hit with both every time to be worth anything. If you put Howlrunner with him I can see that working but then Vader always has a huge "shoot me first" target on him because no one wants to go one on one with Vader as the last ship so that leaves me always wanting to turtle up when he has several guys bearing down on him. The other way to play him is as a flanker and he is excellent in that role but then squad leader is again worthless. For his point cost he is just too expensive to leave vulnerable and too expensive to not be putting out some damage.

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Well; if you feel a 'best action giver' can be in a fairly useless and overpriced  ship, yeah. You 'win' that argument.

But most people mean 'best' something like 'best/good value for points' and with clever squad building you can eek more out of that.

and yet Vader is considered widely as the only playable advanced. He's a good ship. His damage is low, but that's not a bad thing, as it makes him hard to justify shooting, leaving him alive to the end game where he's almost impossible to kill.
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Well; if you feel a 'best action giver' can be in a fairly useless and overpriced  ship, yeah. You 'win' that argument.

But most people mean 'best' something like 'best/good value for points' and with clever squad building you can eek more out of that.

For what it's worth, I don't consider Vader useless and overpriced. The Advanced is overpriced. Vader, no. Every time I brought him to the table, he was worth his price.

 

It's more that the Imperials doesn't really need an action passer, there is better options.

 

Tie Fighter are better served by Howlrunner who affect every ship. and why would you waste your action to give a focus or evade to a 12-18 ship that attack with 2 dice?

 

Interceptor are better served by taking PtL. It gives them the liberty to fly anywhere, they are not ships that should be flown in formation.

 

Bombers have Jonus to help them with their Secondary weapons or Howlrunner for their primary. Again, no need. Except maybe for Rhymer, but he himself is not that good so it's starting to cost a LOT for 2 ships.

 

Tie Advanced is the Tie Advanced.

 

Lambda Shuttle don't really need a secondary action, but can also be serve by FCS.

 

Firespray can take Recon Specialist for double focus.

 

Tie Phantom should not be flown in formation and have FCS, ACD or SPA to give them double action.

 

Tie Defender, I could see a good pair with Vader giving a focus to Rexler so he can use his special ability and still have a TL for his attack.

 

So yeah, why take Vader to pass action if you don't need it anyway. The ship is good, he's just not needed. He would see a lot more play if he was with the rebels.

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The rebels are doing better to deny that is blind since even this site keeps track of tournament results and have been showing a steady % increase of rebels winning tournament over imperial lists. Wave 4 at best the e wing and defender are a wash as both are underwhelming but equal ships. The phantom is likely the best ship of the 4 but the z95 will have the largest impact on list building and options. After wave 4 the rebels will be slightly better then imperials the real complaints didn't start until people saw the rebel aces pack and saw how incredible the changes were to the awing and bwing. The imperials need a major announcement and not even a huge ship will help them unless it comes with an advanced. They need an aces type pack for the advanced and another ship.

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I have tried Vader with squad leader and it just doesn't work. Vader needs TL and focus to be useful because with only two dice he has to hit with both every time to be worth anything. If you put Howlrunner with him I can see that working but then Vader always has a huge "shoot me first" target on him because no one wants to go one on one with Vader as the last ship so that leaves me always wanting to turtle up when he has several guys bearing down on him. The other way to play him is as a flanker and he is excellent in that role but then squad leader is again worthless. For his point cost he is just too expensive to leave vulnerable and too expensive to not be putting out some damage.

If you play Vader AND Howlrunner and your opponent is shooting at Vader, there is something wrong here.

 

That's the thing though, if you want to include Vader with SL, you need to have a purpose for him, and build your team around it, not just to give action to other ship that don,t do much damage. Empire needs firepower, a lot of their ship shoot at 2 dice. If you take Vader with SL, it's to boost the ship with the big gun, not be a threat himself. You boost the big one and stay alive with your 3 agi+5 hit point. You then put your opponent into a dilemma. Should he shoot down the big Gun and keep Vader for the end, where his two actions and PS9 makes him a though ship to defeat, or take down Vader sooner and leave the big gun to wreck havoc in your team.

 

EDIT: funny, when you put 5 and hit together without a space between it goes like this: ****

Edited by Red Castle

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Vader should see more play with Outmaneuver. He's a great candidate for it, as he was dancing out of arcs while Soontir and Turr were still in flight school. It also addresses his primary weakness by increasing his attack dice vs defense dice ratio.

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The Z-95 spelled the end of the swarm. I think FFG hates the swarm quite a hit with the way they are knocking its teeth out.

There are plenty of new tools (for both sides) that help deal with Swarms. The Z-95 is not one of them.
Blount with assault missiles? Oh yeah, he's definitely not any threat to a swarm.

So Imps get the Defender and the Phantom, but ...... oh, nevermind.

I think of the Phantom and the Defender kinda like that guy with the huge sword from Indiana Jones;

Very powerful, very quick, and very dexterous... but all it takes is one shot (or, in this case, a turret) to make all that skill and dexterity meaningless.

 

But...it takes at least two. Unless you have a marksmaned, advanced proton torpedo, and a botched defense roll...

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