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Knucklesamwich

Rebel ace's..... Imps are in trouble

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The Z-95 spelled the end of the swarm. I think FFG hates the swarm quite a hit with the way they are knocking its teeth out.

There are plenty of new tools (for both sides) that help deal with Swarms. The Z-95 is not one of them.
Blount with assault missiles? Oh yeah, he's definitely not any threat to a swarm.

One specific ship with one specific piece of ordnance which works exactly one time in a given game and does exactly one damage - not enough to kill anything - to each ship your opponent hasn't yet moved out of the way...yes, that is the death of the Swarm forever.

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I think of the Phantom and the Defender kinda like that guy with the huge sword from Indiana Jones;

Very powerful, very quick, and very dexterous... but all it takes is one shot (or, in this case, a turret) to make all that skill and dexterity meaningless.

 

Ironically the one who shot him will also be shooting down all the phantoms.

 

First

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I think turrets would be great fun for the imperials and I don't really understand why they have made them rebel only so far.

Turrets, especially the falcons primary make a game about maneuverability into a game about who rolls better dice. Ill take my super maneuverable Phantoms and interceptors over a turret any day. cooler and more fun.

Edited by AdmiralThrawn
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The Z-95 spelled the end of the swarm. I think FFG hates the swarm quite a hit with the way they are knocking its teeth out.

There are plenty of new tools (for both sides) that help deal with Swarms. The Z-95 is not one of them.
Blount with assault missiles? Oh yeah, he's definitely not any threat to a swarm.
One specific ship with one specific piece of ordnance which works exactly one time in a given game and does exactly one damage - not enough to kill anything - to each ship your opponent hasn't yet moved out of the way...yes, that is the death of the Swarm forever.
Rofl. Yes, because I said that Blount was the death to the swarm forever. :rollseyes:

You said that the Z-95 was not a tool to deal with the swarm. Having a ship that is guaranteed to damage multiple ships in a swarm by 1/3rd of their HP... I'd say that's a fairly useful tool.

I would also like to point out that (most) Imperial players aren't "complaining" with a "THIS ISN'T FAIR" attitude. I know for myself, I'm not "whining that Imperials are at a disadvantage."

We just want more options! I want to be able to have a bunch of options, or crew-members that make flying Imperial special.

When I put gunner on my Firespray, it's cool. But knowing that he can go on the YT-1300 as well makes gunner... kind of a traitor.

Rebels have a bunch of Rebel-only cards that (normally) help each other out. As much as I would like this, I would be pretty satisfied with Imperial-only cards that related more toward the Imperial attitude of brutality, or even sacrifice.

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Wait for proton rockets to be leaked, for all we know they could be so devastating for large ships it may scare some Falcons back to their nest's.  Also if you are scared of Falcons run bombers, Who cares about a turret when you maneuver like 70's VW Van and have 6 Hull, load up with some missiles/torps and go big game hunting think Epic Play but the prize is a bit smaller and can shoot back

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Umm, you do realize that there is ways to modify dice rolls?

There is more to it than just rolling dice

im not saying the entire game is literally just about throwing the dice down, im saying I would rather a space starfighter game have me getting hits by maneuvering well more than by having a the ability to modify dice.

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Not only is Lt. Blount very damaging to a swarm the munitions fail safe means that assault missiles will be fired till they work. Three of those will be devastating to a swarm. I predict that when wave 4 and Rebel aces arrive that the current swarm meta is forever gone from competitive play. It will be too dangerous to run on the chance you hit a Munitions fail safe assault missile squad.

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The Z-95 spelled the end of the swarm. I think FFG hates the swarm quite a hit with the way they are knocking its teeth out.

There are plenty of new tools (for both sides) that help deal with Swarms. The Z-95 is not one of them.
Blount with assault missiles? Oh yeah, he's definitely not any threat to a swarm.
One specific ship with one specific piece of ordnance which works exactly one time in a given game and does exactly one damage - not enough to kill anything - to each ship your opponent hasn't yet moved out of the way...yes, that is the death of the Swarm forever.
Rofl. Yes, because I said that Blount was the death to the swarm forever. :rollseyes:

You said that the Z-95 was not a tool to deal with the swarm. Having a ship that is guaranteed to damage multiple ships in a swarm by 1/3rd of their HP... I'd say that's a fairly useful tool.

I would also like to point out that (most) Imperial players aren't "complaining" with a "THIS ISN'T FAIR" attitude. I know for myself, I'm not "whining that Imperials are at a disadvantage."

We just want more options! I want to be able to have a bunch of options, or crew-members that make flying Imperial special.

When I put gunner on my Firespray, it's cool. But knowing that he can go on the YT-1300 as well makes gunner... kind of a traitor.

Rebels have a bunch of Rebel-only cards that (normally) help each other out. As much as I would like this, I would be pretty satisfied with Imperial-only cards that related more toward the Imperial attitude of brutality, or even sacrifice.

 

You said Blount was a tool for dealing with Swarms and I agree. The poster I was originally responding to said the Z-95 in general was the end of the Swarm. There's a difference between one pilot being useful and all ships of a kind being death to an archetype.

 

As for more options for the Imperial side, I agree with that, too. Rebels have so many ways to share actions and pass tokens and be generally more efficient. Imperials have Howlrunner and Jonus...and a couple rarely-if-ever-used Lambda pilots? Vader with Squad Leader?? Not to mention all the Rebel-only cards, including Crew with those words as well as Astromechs and Turrets (though to be fair there are more Bombs than Turrets and only Imps get Bombs right now). So yes, I would like to see more Imperial options as well.

 

That said, I don't think the upcoming meta will be an anti-Swarm meta or a high PS bid meta. I think it will be an anything-goes meta. More of it may seem to be on the Rebel side, but there is so much variety that planning to beat one specific type of build will no longer work. You've brought all kinds of tools to beat Swarms? Here's a Phantom sitting across from you. Opponent running 3 tooled-up ships? Good thing you're still playing the Swarm. Etc. Versatility will be key, both in list-building and on-the-fly strategy adjustment. I'm really looking forward to the new anything-goes meta. :)

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Not only is Lt. Blount very damaging to a swarm the munitions fail safe means that assault missiles will be fired till they work. Three of those will be devastating to a swarm. I predict that when wave 4 and Rebel aces arrive that the current swarm meta is forever gone from competitive play. It will be too dangerous to run on the chance you hit a Munitions fail safe assault missile squad.

I hope you don't mean Munitions Failsafe on Blount, because that doesn't work that way. And yes, theoretically, Failsafe will keep your Assault Missiles around until they hit. Meanwhile, every time you miss the Swarm throws 14+ dice at you, with re-rolls. How many misses do you think you can afford under that kind of fire?

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Three of those will be devastating to a swarm.

And taking three assault missile Z-95s is going to be suicide against everything but a swarm list. That's well over half your points spent on ships which are mediocre at best against Falcons/Firesprays, XXBB, Phantoms, etc. And you just can't afford to do that against an unknown opponent. The only swarm counter you're likely to face with any relevant frequency is Blount, and that's only a single point of splash damage. If you let the hypothetical "worst opponent" lists scare you out of playing a list, regardless of the fact that they are likely to be extremely rare, then you're badly over-reacting and don't really understand how the metagame works.

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I would like to see meta cards. Imagine a card like "Bothan misinformation" that let you choose the placement of one of your oponent's ships. (Not direction, just placement). The Empire should feel like the big spooky near to omnipresent government from hell. With the balance of the games we don't always get that, though I compensate with clever smack talk.

As to unique Empire only, remember how much of the rebel stuff was stolen or defecting imperial stuff. I like the mass produced feel of the imps. I love having the only ps 6 generic ships. I fly both but I think I am leaning Imperial, and Indin't have my defenders or phantoms yet.

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In regular play Imperials have

6 Tie pilots and 3 generics

7 Interceptor Pilots and 4 Generics

2 Advanced pilots and 2 generics

3 Firespray pilots and 1 Generic

3 Shuttle Pilots and 1 Generic

2 Bomber Pilots and 2 Generics

23 pilots, 13 generics

Rebels have

8 X-Wing Pilots and 2 Generics

2 Y-wings and 2 Generics

2 A-Wing Pilots and 2 Generics with 2 more pilots in the pipe

3 YT pilots and 1 Generic

2 B-Wing Pilots and 2 Generics with 2 more pilots in the pipe

3 hawk pilots and 1 generic

20 Pilots+4 10 generics.

The new wave does not add any difference to the numbers as each ship has 2 named pilots and 2 generics.

That means rebels have a bunch of nifty crew options that go on 2 ships, one of which nobody uses, despite it being awesome(the Hawk.) Eventually the B-Wing will also get a crew slot, at a pretty extreme cost(mod slot and one point+the cost of the crew)

The Imperials have more pilots, and while for a time after rebel aces they will have 1 Less named pilot, they are down at least one if not two Epic ships and the fighter that will come with one or the other. They have 3 Crew bearing ships, all of which are at the top of their usefullness list. They have less upgrade slots on average(mainly because Ties and Interceptors have nothing but EPTs, but that's not a bad thing. Squads will less upgrades and more ships are better.

Imperials have options too. Amazing options. Yes, they don't combo as well. That's good. It keeps them balanced.

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That means rebels have a bunch of nifty crew options that go on 2 ships

Okay... So Rebels have lots of Rebel-only crew options for only two ships. So this lessens the customization using crewmen.

I don't really feel like doing the math, but I am curious how many options for crewmen those two Rebel ships have, compared to how many crew options the Imperials have for their three. And we're talking about options, not necessarily competitive options, (if we are including the plethora of terrible Imperial/Rebel pilots as "options").

Then, factor in droids. Rebels may only have two ships that can take crew, but how many can take droids?

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Three of those will be devastating to a swarm.

And taking three assault missile Z-95s is going to be suicide against everything but a swarm list. That's well over half your points spent on ships which are mediocre at best against Falcons/Firesprays, XXBB, Phantoms, etc. And you just can't afford to do that against an unknown opponent. The only swarm counter you're likely to face with any relevant frequency is Blount, and that's only a single point of splash damage. If you let the hypothetical "worst opponent" lists scare you out of playing a list, regardless of the fact that they are likely to be extremely rare, then you're badly over-reacting and don't really understand how the metagame works.

 

Given all of the options aimed at countering swarms and all of the rebel content released lately, it seems silly to build half your list to counter 1 specific build.

 

By the way, Z95s aren't that good. Once you get past the alpha strike, they have no teeth.

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You guys make a great point about the turrets. If FFG is making changes that focus quite obviously on a certain build (swarms) then I don't see why the imps should not get a turret. The swarm is what came natural to imp players out of need. You had to swarm the rebels because they had such powerful ships. If they kill my swarms I would like some turret action.

 

Swarm builds existed in Wave 1, when the only turret was the Ion Cannon Turret.

 

I have never flown the swarm as Imperials, and I have hardly felt handicapped. Hell, in the midst of double Falcon craziness last year, I didn't see the issue.

Ditto.

 

I would also like to point out that (most) Imperial players aren't "complaining" with a "THIS ISN'T FAIR" attitude…

We're reading different posts, then. Assuming there really is such a thing as an "Imperial player", which I'm still half-certain is a joke you're all putting on for my benefit.

I know for myself, I'm not "whining that Imperials are at a disadvantage."

We just want more options! I want to be able to have a bunch of options, or crew-members that make flying Imperial special.

Why doesn't it count to have eight okay, seven Empire-only ships from which to build your lists?

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No, we aren't. We still dominate W4; and thus far the advanced piloting skills that the Phantom, Defender, and Interceptor still offer us the same thing that the imps have always had: High Risk, High Reward.

 

I would also like to point out that the Imps are likely to get boosts through potential large ship releases (I myself am still praying for a fix to the TIE/A!)

 

My two pence!

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The swarm is very popular still in my area. It has won the last two tournaments that I know about at my FLGS. I also know there are many people who HATE the swarm with a passion. I think for 22 points you can't really go wrong putting a ship on the board that can have a high potential of doing 6-7 damage to a swarm on the alpha strike because as any swarm player can tell you staying in formation is a key element to victory with a swarm.

I also think that customization is one of the best aspects of this game and as a mostly imperial player I feel like we keep seeing wave after wave of awesome synergies that the rebels keep getting and we haven't seen a new one since wave 1. The only crew we have that is unique kills himself, while fun and interesting I don't think he is the only unique crew that we want to see on the board for imps. I'm heading to Gen-con this year. I really hope they surprise me with Grand Admiral Thrawn!!!

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I also think that customization is one of the best aspects of this game and as a mostly imperial player I feel like we keep seeing wave after wave of awesome synergies that the rebels keep getting and we haven't seen a new one since wave 1. The only crew we have that is unique kills himself, while fun and interesting I don't think he is the only unique crew that we want to see on the board for imps. I'm heading to Gen-con this year. I really hope they surprise me with Grand Admiral Thrawn!!!

 

I think this post sums up the way I feel about the Empire and the game the best. That's why I'm waiting to see what the Empire big ships are and the Empire only crew that come with it. 

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As crazy as it sounds, with all the rebel's beautiful toys coming and coming and coming.... I still prefer to fly the Imperial side and don't believe that anything coming for the rebels will make my imperial's builds less effective. Rebels have been getting free token and actions from day one with Garven and Dutch. Yes, they have more variety in their upgrades and crew, but it doesn't make their ships any less boring to fly.... Just counter with a Phantom, Lt Lorrir, a defender, Soontir Fel, now that is some fun flying!

 

A small lol on the "Rebels have been getting free token and actions from day one" bit (although I will admit that the Interceptor fun wasn't done in Wave 1):

 

Imperial "free stuff":

Howlrunner: 1 (free) re roll for each friendly ship at Range 1 (= half a free TL)

Night Beast: 1 free Focus fAction or a green maneuver (if not stressed prior to the green move)

Turr Phennir: Perform 1 free Boost or Barrel roll Action after attacking

Soontir Fel: Assign 1 Focus Token when getting stressed

 

 

Edited by Forensicus

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hmm how would a grand admiral crew card look like?

let's say it's a single use action

an admiral never leaves the house without his fleet so let him sweep the playing area in  a (off board) pass of his fleet

roll 5 attack dice, for every crit kill a large ship for every hit a small one

...now we just have to haggle about the point price :)

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Nightbeast , Turr and Soontir are not synergistic. They are self contained skills. The rebels have Garven, Biggs, Dutch, Lando, Jan, Kyle, Roark and a bunch of unique crew that make very interesting synergies. The imps have Howl , Jonus who I rarely see used, and the space hippo pilots who I see a bit more. And on top of the Rebel dominance in number of sharing abilities they have very long ranges! Howl and Jonus are range one so you are forced to stay tight. That will be much more dangerous with munitions failsafe around the corner.

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i feel like everyone is forgetting a nasty Interceptor pilot by the name of Canor Jax. Get him into the middle of your enemy's formation, and they're gonna have a bad time, and god forbid he ends up in someone's rear arc at range one. Granted it takes skill to get him that close and have him survive, but it's certainly doable. I can see him having some decent synergy with a mini-Howlruner Swarm, particularly against lower Agility ships.

 

That all being said, I feel like a lot of the frustration at the Rebels' synergies (in this and other threads) boils down to the game's asymmetric faction design, which IMO does a good job keeping with the lore of the Star Wars Universe. The Empire lacks synergies because, as I see things, they rely more on their superior numbers. "Quantity has a quality all its own," and all that. The Rebels can't afford to play that game, so they work as a group to take out a numerically superior force. That is probably why we see more of their strategy reflected by the game mechanics, and the Empire has theirs reflected by their lower priced pilots, particularly with EPTs. And on the flip side their better pilots are better because they have to be more individually focused and skilled to survive against their (arguably) technologically superior opponents.

 

I will certainly concede the point though that the Empire is lacking in Unique crew specifically, though I feel that the Rebel Prisoner is being undervalued. It stops Opportunist, provided the first ship shooting has it, and even if it doesn't that's a ship that's going to have to do a green next turn if they want their action. As for more, I think we'll have to wait and see what Huge Ships drop for the Empire. I expect they'll even things out a bit.

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