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Isilion

question about surge + AoE attack

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Hi all,

 

I'm new to the game. Brand new in fact, I haven't played a single quest yet, but I'm studying the rules.  

I have a question to which I haven't found an explicit reply yet.    

If someone does an AoE attack and rolls one or more surges, does he choose separate surge results for each target or does he choose once and apply that to all?

I'm guessing the last option, but I'd rather be 100% sure.

 

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Do you mean a blast attack? You spend your surges once and only once every time you attack. It applies the same to every target effected by your attack.

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yes, things like blast, the hero feat of Widow, fire breath, etc.

Ok so it is as I expected. thanks for the clarification :)

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Yes, surges apply to the attack as a whole.

Also note that this means if somebody has an ability to cancel surges on an incoming attack, that surge will be effectively removed for everybody affected by the attack, not just the figure who's cancelling it.

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Also note that this means if somebody has an ability to cancel surges on an incoming attack, that surge will be effectively removed for everybody affected by the attack, not just the figure who's cancelling it.

 

Are you sure about this Steve-O? I never saw anything like that but I would have ruled, that such an effect would only trigger if the character is really target of the attack and not a bystander in the blast radius.

 

Is there a ruling on it?

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It's the same idea that if a surge applies to everyone (not not a new one for each target) then creatures have the ability to cancel it for all. The rules are normally as simple as they can be.

 

I would question if any creature (hero or monster) can do so if the ability to do says "when the target of an attack". Unless the blast is targeting that creature, I am not sure they get that option. We have come to that point a couple of times. There is different wording for different abilities, letting some creatures to act in this way if they are count in a blast but not in the targeted space. 

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It's the same idea that if a surge applies to everyone (not not a new one for each target) then creatures have the ability to cancel it for all. The rules are normally as simple as they can be.

 

I would question if any creature (hero or monster) can do so if the ability to do says "when the target of an attack". Unless the blast is targeting that creature, I am not sure they get that option. We have come to that point a couple of times. There is different wording for different abilities, letting some creatures to act in this way if they are count in a blast but not in the targeted space. 

It's absolutely a question of whether the ability in question uses the wording "targeted" or "affected." For example, the "Heavy Cloak" says: Exhaust this card after dice are rolled to cancel a surge on an attack that targets you.

 

If we're talking a surge:blast attack (for example,) the cloak can't be used by a figure adjacent to the original target square for two reasons.

 

1: The cloak specifies that the attack must target you. The wording of blast is that the attack "affects" each figure adjacent to the target space. It does not "target" those spaces (same case with fire breath.) 

 

2. The time to use the cloak is "after dice are rolled" since the attack doesn't blast (or fire breath) until the spend surges step, by the time the attack is affecting nearby figures, dice rolling step of combat has come and gone.

 

However, this works both ways. The Hybrid Sentinel's "Prey on the Weak" ability does not trigger if only if the "fire breathed" figures have low might. However, if the initial target has a low might, the entire attack gains +1 wound.

 

On the other hand, the "Cloak of Deception" ability says that if you pass the test "you are not affected by the attack." You could avoid being damaged from either a direct attack, or a blast/fire breath with this gear.

Edited by Zaltyre
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I think some people may have misunderstood what I was saying.

It's true that most abilities which allow you to cancel a surge (like Heavy Cloak) require that the figure with the ability be a target, not merely affected.

 

That's not what I was saying.

 

What I was saying is that IF an ability allows you cancel a surge, the surge is removed from the WHOLE ATTACK.  ie: If you roll 2 surges, but one gets cancelled because the target is wearing a Heavy Cloak, you only have 1 surge to spend on the attack against everyone affected.  You don't get 1 surge against the target and 2 surges against everyone else.

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I think some people may have misunderstood what I was saying.

It's true that most abilities which allow you to cancel a surge (like Heavy Cloak) require that the figure with the ability be a target, not merely affected.

 

That's not what I was saying.

 

What I was saying is that IF an ability allows you cancel a surge, the surge is removed from the WHOLE ATTACK.  ie: If you roll 2 surges, but one gets cancelled because the target is wearing a Heavy Cloak, you only have 1 surge to spend on the attack against everyone affected.  You don't get 1 surge against the target and 2 surges against everyone else.

Indeed. My comment was more directed at the OP than at you, Steve-O. The wording of attack cards can be very tricky, so I err on the side of over-explanation. 

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2. The time to use the cloak is "after dice are rolled" since the attack doesn't blast (or fire breath) until the spend surges step, by the time the attack is affecting nearby figures, dice rolling step of combat has come and gone.

 

 

Im not sure if this is actually correct, I seem to recall this was discussed in some other thread and it was concluded that "after dice are rolled" doesnt mean exactly after dice are rolled but that the later steps of combat are also "after dice are rolled".

Someone please correct me if I am wrong :)

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2. The time to use the cloak is "after dice are rolled" since the attack doesn't blast (or fire breath) until the spend surges step, by the time the attack is affecting nearby figures, dice rolling step of combat has come and gone.

 

 

Im not sure if this is actually correct, I seem to recall this was discussed in some other thread and it was concluded that "after dice are rolled" doesnt mean exactly after dice are rolled but that the later steps of combat are also "after dice are rolled".

Someone please correct me if I am wrong :)

 

Sixko,

 

To me, the comment from Justin in  http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1182329/when-does-a-defensive-item-have-to-be-used where Justin says,   "Regardless any and all rerolls must be applied during the "Roll Dice" step. Yes, this means that, technically players wouldn't be able to check the range before deciding whether or not to reroll, but enforcement of such a thing seems a bit folly."

 

I believe in that situation he is referring to a card with an "after dice are rolled" trigger, and saying that must be during step 2, before step 3.

 

In the previous example, we've also got a bit of a paradox- if the guy with the cloak waits until the fire breath affects him to cancel the "fire breath" surge (if he were allowed to do that,) he'd be cancelling a surge that caused the attack to affect him, in which case he wouldn't be able to use the cloak since he wouldn't be involved in the attack in the first place. All of that weirdness is avoided by keeping the phases of combat in order.

Edited by Zaltyre

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To me, the comment from Justin in  http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1182329/when-does-a-defensive-item-have-to-be-used where Justin says,   "Regardless any and all rerolls must be applied during the "Roll Dice" step. Yes, this means that, technically players wouldn't be able to check the range before deciding whether or not to reroll, but enforcement of such a thing seems a bit folly."

 

I believe in that situation he is referring to a card with an "after dice are rolled" trigger, and saying that must be during step 2, before step 3.

Justin is talking specifically about reroll effects here. Perhaps the specific card cited does use an "after dice are rolled" trigger, but the triggering condition is beside the point. What he's saying is that all rerolls must be completed in Step 2.

 

In other words, all rolling of dice must be done in the "Roll Dice" step.

 

I don't think it's fair to apply this comment to all "after dice are rolled" effects, because not all such effects involve rolling dice.  Heavy Cloak is still limited by the "target" condition and that's important for the logical reasons you mentioned, but in general I would allow "after dice are rolled" effects to be resolved during the Spend Surges step, if it made sense.

Edited by Steve-O

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I don't think it's fair to apply this comment to all "after dice are rolled" effects, because not all such effects involve rolling dice.  Heavy Cloak is still limited by the "target" condition and that's important for the logical reasons you mentioned, but in general I would allow "after dice are rolled" effects to be resolved during the Spend Surges step, if it made sense.

 

I may be making an undue generalization, but just the same, I think I'll seek an official answer on when "after dice are rolled" ends. 

 

Let's say hypothetically that there were a piece of armor that granted "stealthy," forcing more range to hit the target. If a target were to exhaust this gear immediately "after dice are rolled," no problem- it would just influence whether or not the attack misses. What if, however, the target waited until the attacker had spent all surges, had recovered a wound and caused blast? Retroactively allowing the attack to be made a range miss seems a bit over-complicated doesn't it? 

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I swear there was a thread not that long ago where we had an in depth discussion on this very "after the dice are rolled" topic. Can't for the life of me remember what the topic was however.

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I swear there was a thread not that long ago where we had an in depth discussion on this very "after the dice are rolled" topic. Can't for the life of me remember what the topic was however.

What is the timing of "uncontrolled power" and "Rune Mastery"? Because that was my thread. All that resolved was that the trigger on "Rune mastery" should be "after dice are rolled," and therefore it's a game of chicken between the OL card and the hero skill. What that answer didn't address was when the game of chicken ends. I put the response in the FFG Sez thread, bottom of pg 9.

Edited by Zaltyre

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I swear there was a thread not that long ago where we had an in depth discussion on this very "after the dice are rolled" topic. Can't for the life of me remember what the topic was however.

What is the timing of "uncontrolled power" and "Rune Mastery"? Because that was my thread. All that resolved was that the trigger on "Rune mastery" should be "after dice are rolled," and therefore it's a game of chicken between the OL card and the hero skill. What that answer didn't address was when the game of chicken ends. I put the response in the FFG Sez thread, bottom of pg 9.

 

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/103314-rune-mastery-uncontrolled-power-timing-question/#entry1040456

 

So basically you have in between the moment after the dice are rolled until its such a point that you are actually distributing the damage to play a "after dice are rolled" effect.

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http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/103314-rune-mastery-uncontrolled-power-timing-question/#entry1040456

 

So basically you have in between the moment after the dice are rolled until its such a point that you are actually distributing the damage to play a "after dice are rolled" effect.

 

I'm not sure where you're drawing that conclusion from that answer- all it says to me is that "after dice are rolled" at least extends to the end of step 2.The question is whether "after dice are rolled" extends just to the end of step 2 (effectively 3, I think everyone can agree that enforcing something occurring before range is checked is difficult) or if it extends through step 4, and I didn't see that addressed in the response I received in that thread.

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Got an answer from FFG.
 

Rule Question:

Does "after dice are rolled" mean "during the roll dice step, but after rolling dice," or "any time after dice are rolled, until the attack is resolved?" Thanks!

 

            Answer:
            After dice is immediately after dice. Once players have had the opportunity to trigger any of their after dice                 abilities, the attack progresses to the Check Range step, and players can no longer use after dice abilities. 
 
            Thanks,
                Nathan Hajek
Edited by Zaltyre

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 Rule Question:

Does "after dice are rolled" mean "during the roll dice step, but after rolling dice," or "any time after dice are rolled, until the attack is resolved?" Thanks!

            Answer:
            After dice is immediately after dice. Once players have had the opportunity to trigger any of their after dice                 abilities, the attack progresses to the Check Range step, and players can no longer use after dice abilities. 

 

Interesting. I feel like that contradicts some previous rulings, but it's just a gut feeling and I don't have anything to back that up with.

 

Then again, it could be that the "once players have had the opportunity" to mean that you have to allow for that opportunity and can't just rush through. I might have to see if I can find why I think it might be contradicting something.

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 Rule Question:

Does "after dice are rolled" mean "during the roll dice step, but after rolling dice," or "any time after dice are rolled, until the attack is resolved?" Thanks!

            Answer:
            After dice is immediately after dice. Once players have had the opportunity to trigger any of their after dice                 abilities, the attack progresses to the Check Range step, and players can no longer use after dice abilities. 

 

Interesting. I feel like that contradicts some previous rulings, but it's just a gut feeling and I don't have anything to back that up with.

 

Then again, it could be that the "once players have had the opportunity" to mean that you have to allow for that opportunity and can't just rush through. I might have to see if I can find why I think it might be contradicting something.

 

 

@Griton ... I know you have been an active participant, so please don't take this the wrong way  :D

 

Welcome to FFG.  I can't begin to tell you how often, with some of their games, that they make rulings, then revise the rulings, then re-rule on the rulings, etc.  It can make your head spin.  All you would need to do is look at the evolution of FAQs as it pertains to Descent First Edition, and it would make you sick how often there were flip-flops, changes of direction, rulings on rulings, etc.  :P

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Whether or not that's true, I haven't myself come across anything this ruling contradicts- it makes sense to me that "after dice are rolled" follows the rolling of dice. The closest thing to a "contradiction" I've seen to this is Justin mentioning that you can use "after dice are rolled" during step 3 as well, but that's just because (and he said as much) it's very difficult to enforce people not counting up range immediately in their heads. It's supposed to end with step 2, but step 3 is basically non-existent in real time.

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@Griton ... I know you have been an active participant, so please don't take this the wrong way  :D

 

Welcome to FFG.  I can't begin to tell you how often, with some of their games, that they make rulings, then revise the rulings, then re-rule on the rulings, etc.  It can make your head spin.  All you would need to do is look at the evolution of FAQs as it pertains to Descent First Edition, and it would make you sick how often there were flip-flops, changes of direction, rulings on rulings, etc.  :P

Heh, oh I know. I've seen it a bunch.

 

And really, there may not be all that many situations where it matters too much. (A lot of the examples in this thread were hypothetical). I guess in the case of the Heavy Cloak, the Overlord wouldn't have to declare how they were spending surges before the Hero had to decide whether or not to use the Heavy Cloak.

 

I'm starting to think that I may have been conflating "After Dice are Rolled" with "When you attack" / "When you activate", etc.

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@Griton ... I know you have been an active participant, so please don't take this the wrong way  :D

 

Welcome to FFG.  I can't begin to tell you how often, with some of their games, that they make rulings, then revise the rulings, then re-rule on the rulings, etc.  It can make your head spin.  All you would need to do is look at the evolution of FAQs as it pertains to Descent First Edition, and it would make you sick how often there were flip-flops, changes of direction, rulings on rulings, etc.  :P

Heh, oh I know. I've seen it a bunch.

 

And really, there may not be all that many situations where it matters too much. (A lot of the examples in this thread were hypothetical). I guess in the case of the Heavy Cloak, the Overlord wouldn't have to declare how they were spending surges before the Hero had to decide whether or not to use the Heavy Cloak.

 

I'm starting to think that I may have been conflating "After Dice are Rolled" with "When you attack" / "When you activate", etc.

 

 

Actually, this is one of the things that frustrates me to no end about some of FFG's games in general, and Descent (First and Second edition) in specific.

 

So often you read the rules (in this particular case the turn order), and you feel that you have a solid understanding about how things should work.  Then someone else reads them, interprets them in a different manner (perhaps in a way that you feel no sane person would), and a "discussion" ensues (read vociferous debate :D).

 

Sometimes it is a literal vs interpretation issue of the rules; sometimes its people putting their bent/fluff issues in play; sometimes it is FFG's own rulings/contradictions.

 

I have often thought that the biggest draw back to these games is (and please note that this is just my OPINION) the PERCEIVED lack of:

 

1) Play testing - not just the base game, but all interactions between expansions, new classes, new skill cards, new shop items, etc.

 

2) Defining key words - several of my group feel very strongly that FFG would benefit IMMENSELY if they would simply create an appendix to their rules which contained a section of Key Definitions of Terms.  For example, in Descent First Edition, there was a debate that existed for about the first three years of the game as to what constituted an "empty" space.  Eventually, and official FAQ ruling came down, but this could have been avoided by just defining the term up front.

 

3) Quality writers - this goes hand in hand with both points above.  Find truly gifted documentation people - people with writing degrees, that know how to get across key points.

 

Anyways ... just my rant & wish list.  Still love the games.  Still have fun.  But I could do with a little less of the "discussions" we sometimes have.  :P

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