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gabe69velasquez

CR90 Imperial version or proxy miniature

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The crew limits can be misleading, as the CR90 can certainly take more crew as passengers.  If the skeleton crew is 30 for the corvette then it is pretty much the same as for the DP20 (I think it wouldn't need 45 people just to fly it).  Basically the corvette is a more versatile design that can accommodate lots of passengers whereas the DP20 is a pure military vessel.  Looking at the 3 team types we have I would say that the gunnery team is ironically the least appealing, who wants to spend more energy for an extra hit.  The engineering and sensor teams are the ones I would go for.  You really only need one each of these at most.  Cargo upgrades should be limited as this thing is not built for carrying cargo although Frequency Jammer, Backup Shield Generator and Engine Booster seem appropriate upgrades, even if only one were allowed.

The sensor upgrade and turret upgrades open up all many of extra stuff.  Do we want to see a DP20 with two ion cannon turrets?  Likewise the missile slot is open to use any type of missile, that seems plausible but specific mention is made of concussion missiles so having a unique DP20 title hardpoint that is a "reusable concussion missile attack" is one way around this.

 

In a version with only 4 hardpoints (2 per section) I would have in the fore section the primary turret representing a turbolaser battery alongside a unique missile hardpoint and a quad laser hardpoint.  The aft section having a quad laser and turbolaser hardpoint.  So basically 2 turbolaser and 2 quad laser batteries with a missile attack.  If there needs to be a ruling you could have the missile hardpoint be able to fire directly ahead or directly behind if you really want the capacity to launch in either facing and this would be a unique feature of the DP20.  That seems like plenty of firepower options to me without going to extremes.

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The CR90 Corvette
 
While the Tantive IV is easily the most iconic CR90 corvette in the Star Wars galaxy, it is by no means the only one of import. Manufactured by the Corellian Engineering Corporation, the CR90 was a swift, multipurpose ship that saw widespread use among governments and private parties.
 
The CR90 corvette’s modular design made it easy for users to reconfigure it to best suit the purpose they wanted it to serve, and the CR90 was often employed as a cargo transport, troop carrier, passenger vessel, or light escort. Additionally, the CR90 could be outfitted with enough weaponry to make it a formidable gunship; it could equip as many as eight turbolasers, six laser cannons, and four ion cannons.
 
The Tantive IV Expansion Pack presents a similarly adaptable starship for use in your games of X-Wing. Between its two ship cards, for fore and aft sections, the CR90 can equip up to ten upgrades of four different types.
 
 

 

 
I do believe that the DP20 is not quite as modular as the CR90, so you have a point there, but I don't think it's going too far to allow other missiles. The "standard payload" of an A-wing is also Concussion Missiles, and yet in game that don't have the restriction of one type. The TIE Bomber also, it is equiped with a " M-s3 concussion missile launcher." I think you are stearing me to the stats and ideas at your own thread on the subject at  www.afewmaneuvers.com/topic/2425-dp20-gunship-stats/
 
I'm going to leave it open to other types and just make the aft hull ability that it not discard the upgrade card. 
While we're at it, the CR90 has Turbolasers and not Quad Laser Cannons, but the Harpoint upgrade allows Quad Laser Cannons. 
 
CR90
• 6x Taim & Bak H9 turbolasers  (2 single & 4 double) 
    represented by the primary (STL) plus three hardpoints (STL or QLC).
 
DP20
• 8x Double turbolaser cannons   (5 upgrades)
• 6x Quad laser cannons              (3 upgrades + primary)
• 4x Concussion missile launchers, 30 concussion missiles each, 
 
I think I am going to go with 8 upgrade slots and 2 missile slots after all. 
It simplifies things, and I think your argument that it should cost less is contradictory,
it either costs less or it's an accurate translation of the DP20 into the game.
To answer your question, you would choose the cheaper CR90 if you wanted fewer weapons.
I don't think it's all that inaccurate to factor a balance of gunners and energy.
I think I should go with the same openness that the game uses with missiles 
for part of the eight upgrade slots, and free up some energy because of gunners. 
So though it may feel wrong I think in game terms 3 turret slots and 5 harpoint slots 
is correct because the Blaster turret is very similar to the Quad Laser Cannon with a better arc.
I think the math shows that to otherwise give it anything less than 8 harpoints would be inaccurate.
Edited by gabe69velasquez

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It also may be a bit on the moot side as I think I found one named cannon imperial DP20, and that was later captured by the rebels. 

 

 
The Active was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Adventure was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Bruizer was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Chandi was a DP20 frigate in the Rebel Alliance Fleet.
The Corellian Thunder was a DP20 frigate in service to the Alliance to Restore the Republic during the Galactic Civil War.
The Courane was a DP20 frigate in service to the New Republic in 9 ABY. It was part of a small fleet of warships hastily assembled by Han Solo and Lando Calrissian to defend the Meridian sector from invasion.
Cularin 1 was a Corellian gunship that was used during the Clone Wars. 
The Dark Revenge was a DP20 frigate that was used by the pirate organization Dharus' Buccaneers during the time of the Galactic Civil War.
The Diligence was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Dream Runner was a DP20 frigate serving the Alliance to Restore the Republic during the Galactic Civil War.
The Ensaiav was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Alliance Fleet.
The Fireater was a DP20 frigate in service to the New Republic in 9 ABY and stationed at Durren.
The Ghorman's Honor was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Alliance Fleet.
The Handree was a DP20 frigate that was in operation with the Rebel Alliance some time during the Galactic Civil War.
Hawkeye was a Corellian Gunship used by the Rebel Alliance.
The Incomparable was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Kingsmill was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Loose Cannon was a DP20 frigate operated by a group of privateers known only by the name of this vessel.
The Mastala was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Alliance Fleet.
The Mediator was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Orion was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Pervail was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Pulsar was a DP20 frigate that was a part of the New Republic Defense Force attached to General Keyan Farlander's fleet towards the end of 27 ABY.
The Sable II was a Corellian gunship commandeered by the pirate Karn Granzor. It was destroyed in battle with the Anto's Star which was manned by former crewmembers of Sable II.
The Slader's Raider II was a DP20 frigate that was owned and operated by the pirate and smuggler Roark Slader during the early years of the New Republic.
The Spear was a DP20 frigate that saw service with the Rebel Alliance Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Strathadam was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Telsor was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Alliance Fleet.
The Thaere Interceptor was a DP20 frigate that saw service with the Navy of Thaere during the Clone Wars.
The Gunship was the name of Niles Ferrier's personal DP20 frigate.
The Thracian was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Thrasher was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Tinoon Sec was a DP20 frigate that was part of Tinoon Station's security forces. It was destroyed during a pirate raid, that was successfully driven off by Ace Azzameen.
The Victorious was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Vigor was a Corellian gunship that was used by the Peace Brigade during the Yuuzhan Vong War.
The Vindicta was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Vindictor was a DP20 frigate used by the Rebel Alliance during the Galactic Civil War.
The Walerv was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Alliance Fleet.
The Warspite was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
The Watchful was a DP20 frigate in the service of the Rebel Fleet during the Galactic Civil War.
Edited by gabe69velasquez

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The crew limits can be misleading, as the CR90 can certainly take more crew as passengers.  If the skeleton crew is 30 for the corvette then it is pretty much the same as for the DP20 (I think it wouldn't need 45 people just to fly it).  Basically the corvette is a more versatile design that can accommodate lots of passengers whereas the DP20 is a pure military vessel.  Looking at the 3 team types we have I would say that the gunnery team is ironically the least appealing, who wants to spend more energy for an extra hit.  The engineering and sensor teams are the ones I would go for.  You really only need one each of these at most.  

 

I read this again in context of 30 crew for the CR90 and 45 crew for the CP20, and I think you're forgetting these aren't just fighters that have little maintenance needs. It's ten times the length of an X-wing and it would need and have to have people to do repairs and maintenance, the engineering section, etc. As though because it's military its not going to have something like a sickbay, or people manning specific systems like shields or sensors, or communications. Minimum crew for the CR90 is seven, and minimum crew for the DP20 is ten.

So either way I fully intend to go up in crew not down. 

 

Interestingly, the CR90 could be piloted by as few as two people, as shown when Han Solo and Chewbacca flew a series of corvettes bearing the name Jaina's Light,  or even one person if necessary via a steering yoke, as Wedge Antilles demonstrated when he flew the modified corvette Night Caller.

 

 

CR90 Far Star     http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/FarStar

Notable Crew Members 

 
Command Crew 
Kaiya Adrimetrum (First officer)
Dr Akanseh (Medical officer)
Keleman Ciro (Captain)
Jessa Dajus (Tactical advisor)
Ranna Gorjaye (Flight commander)
Gorak Khzam (Security officer)
Kl'aal (Forward scout)
Lofryyhn (Chief mechanic)
Loh'khar the Finder (Procurement officer)
Darryn Thyte (Navigator)
Brophar Tofarain (Shuttle pilot & mechanic)
 
Support Crew 
Arac (Officer)
Boom (Demolition expert)
Tanner Carzyn (Weapons technician)
Noell Ciro (Fighter pilot)
Colton (Crewman)
Crivor (Crewmember)
Fasha Dansun (Xenoarchaeologist)
Dasha Defano (Fighter pilot)
Dr Varel DeVay (Xenobiologist)
Dann Drugah (Droid specialist)
Edly Fasalk (Gunner)
"Gammer" Firdaaz (Scout)
Thanis Gul-Rah (Security)
Gunthar (Security)
Hydan (Slicer)
Halley (Officer)
Krudar (Gunner)
Unda Lagor (Heavy weapons)
Marca (Crewmember)
Nizzal (Dealer)
Rizzal (Information gatherer)
Taska Rorn (Helm)
Scoryn (Security)
Genna Seedar (Medic)
T'achak T'andar (Repulsorlift technician)
Uta T'Cha (Droid specialist)
Vegath Tist (Mineralogist)
Brandis Turgah (Computer/Droid specialist)
Cobb Unser (Fighter pilot & droid technician)
Vizzal (Procurement expert)
Qesya Vth'naar (Security)
Vyson (Crewmember)
 
Droids 
DD-19
J9-B4
J9-K6-24
J9-R1
R3-K8
R-97
SE-4-17
SE-4-TQ5
Edited by gabe69velasquez

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Silly question but how can it use blaster turrets when Huge ships cannot generate or use focus tokens?  Also what is stopping people using ion cannons instead.  The great thing about the game is it's versatility but all upgrades use the rules as written on the cards.  So having to say there is an exception that Huge ships can use blaster turrets is not the best solution.  Playability has to win out over an accurate representation.  But I can see what you are trying to do.

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Why do we need an Imperial proxy of a Rebel ship when the Imperials flew the exact same ship too?  We just need Imperial cards.  Unless you want to do an Assassin class.

Actually I was trying to have a discussion about the more interesting of the two and the more difficult one to figure out, it wouldn't be that hard to just create grey copies of the Rebel CR90 cards with Imperial logo instead. I'll probably get to that last. 

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Silly question but how can it use blaster turrets when Huge ships cannot generate or use focus tokens?  Also what is stopping people using ion cannons instead.  The great thing about the game is it's versatility but all upgrades use the rules as written on the cards.  So having to say there is an exception that Huge ships can use blaster turrets is not the best solution.  Playability has to win out over an accurate representation.  But I can see what you are trying to do.

Oops, I was looking at the range and attack value and forgot about the target lock completely. I guess the only thing like the Quad Laser cannons is going to be the Quad Laser Cannons. But as you mentioned it's more of a weapons platform so the fore section ability could be to use target lock as a focus token just like the Han Solo crew card. 

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Still trying to decide which are valid and how many.

 

14377789301_d4bf7065a9_b.jpg

 

I like that you put cannon slots on here.  That makes sense.  After play testing, infinite concussion missiles were very powerful. 

 

Well, it didn't take long to discount the cannon slot idea, the Single Turbolaser has the same dice as the Heavy Laser Cannon, has a similar range, but requires energy and the defender doubles their agility, one point less cost, and fewer restrictions, so one can't just replace Single Turbolasers with HLCs. And then theirs the Ion Cannon, no pun intended but that's not Canon, and so it would get complaints.  And the Autoblaster though tempting, I would spend one more point to get the Quad Laser Cannon, and these turrets are really manned by crews, so after looking at all three cannons it doesn't look like as good an idea for representing the DP20's weaponry as it first did. There's never been a requirement of crew for those weapons and it could be assumed the pilots are firing them.  It was tempting at first to create variations that use current cards for the small and large ships, but the huge ships have different mechanics.  

So am leaning more toward an ability on the aft card for all the Hardpoints, like the Gunnery Team, to represent the 46 gunner crew members. I'm going to ponder on it some more because the ranges and arcs might be better represented by turrets and cannons for some of the weapon placements on the ship's hull, and come to think of it the primary on the CR90 is a roughly 304° turret arc from blue line tip to blue line tip. 

 

Weapon                         Range         Arc        Dice           Energy         Other

Autoblaster                         1               90°          3                   0              Hits cannot be cancelled

Ion Turret                          1-2             360°         3                   0              1 damage, 1 ion

Blaster Turret                   1-2             360°         3                   0              Spend Focus token

Quad Laser Cannon         1-2             90°           3                   1              Try again for 1 energy

Ion Cannon                        1-3             90°           3                  0              1 damage, 1 ion

Heavy Laser Cannon         2-3            90°           4                  0              no critical hits

Single Turbolaser              3-5            90°           4                  2              1 focus die becomes hit and

Single Turbolaser (P)        3-5           304°          4                  0               defender doubles agility dice.

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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Over 1500 views for this threat since I started it and

only two other people have shown any interest in fleshing this out. 

That's pretty sad, I suppose I'll just finish it for myself. 

 

 

 

14396986396_1172017a21_o.png

 

What's left to do.

 

• Add the ship miniature icon

• Add the ship name text

• Decide on an ability for the aft card

• Decide on the cost of each section

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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Well it would seem you would use the same missile rule for the aft section so you could just repeat it there.  The card text should be specific for the section it is in unless it says both sections.  Otherwise just do a flavor text.

 

Cost seems to be in "tens" for the other Huge ships and that aft section should be pricy with 6 energy, at least 60 points.  Fore section around 50 points.  Then you need to factor in the cost of having this at PS 8 as this is going to be a HUGE factor with this thing,

 

You obviously also need a crippled version for each section, probably knocking out the missiles, at least half the hardpoints and all the teams.

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Well it would seem you would use the same missile rule for the aft section so you could just repeat it there.  The card text should be specific for the section it is in unless it says both sections.  Otherwise just do a flavor text.

 

Cost seems to be in "tens" for the other Huge ships and that aft section should be pricy with 6 energy, at least 60 points.  Fore section around 50 points.  Then you need to factor in the cost of having this at PS 8 as this is going to be a HUGE factor with this thing,

 

You obviously also need a crippled version for each section, probably knocking out the missiles, at least half the hardpoints and all the teams.

 

The missile ability wasn't meant to be limited to the fore section, there's no way I would waste the aft text area to repeat the same thing, when I can just add "When this ship attacks..." 

 

The 6  energy rating is actually only for storage, and not that fabulous considering that you wouldn't leave the energy on that card, especially on this ship. What really matters is the fact that each hardpoint can store 2 energy each and so the total is 22 energy storage because of them, and that reminds me I should print out another three copies of the Quad Laser Cannons and Single Turbolasers each.

 

The "huge" category of ships move after small and large ships, the GR75  having a PS3, the CR90 having a PS4, so for the movement phase anyway the PS8 isn't that huge. On the attack side though, I can see that perhaps it's a bit much, I didn't give it much thought when I picked the imperial ship card I converted. 

 

Pilot Skill     Fore Section            Aft Section

    8               Primary, and              4 hardpoints

    7              4 hardpoints               and 1 missile

    6               and 1 missile

    5 

This illustrates what you mean by huge. Swapping out the 8 for a 6 is the easiest modification on a card I can do, it's that tiny text that I'm patching together letter by letter in some cases that's the real pain. 

 

I almost forgot the crippled side, thanks for that reminder. 

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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I liked the idea of using different turrets, besides the ones provided in the huge ships

(sorry to be so late btw)

 

I did also,  but it doesn't reflect the DP20's weapons accurately, 

I wouldn't mind swapping in some Turrets and Cannons for hardpoints,

but that's a different project.

 

 

On a side note I just discovered a variant of the TIE Interceptor

that has Blaster Cannons and Missiles instead of the lasers:

 
Armament
Original design:
SFS L-s9.3 laser cannons (4) 
 
Later refit:
SFS L-s9.3 laser cannons (2)
Blaster cannons (4)
Multipurpose Warhead Launchers can be mounted with optionally varying payload (2)

 

Now I have to make a card for that, ha ha. 

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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14424346414_05c0ce93fa_o.png

 

I was going to say on to the cripple side but I still need a second opinion on the cost.

With that many hardpoints requiring energy you would think

that it would be tough to charge them all, but as I suggested earlier,

to use the GR75 Dial with +2 Energy for each maneuver, that should help.

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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The base card for the ship could also be changed from the CR90 as it can certainly fire in the rear 90 degree arc as it is unobstructed by a massive engine block.  So before I saw your latest card I was thinking the aft card could say something like "one hardpoint in the aft section may target a ship outside of your fire arc" per combat phase.  This would allow one weapon to fire in the rear arc.  I don't know why but I had always assumed that the missiles launchers were fixed fore and aft so would only be used in these arcs (like the Firespray primary and auxiliary arcs).  I can see an Imperial Corvette having swivel missile launchers or missile pods having more freedom of action to fire off the beams.  I personally like the idea of the missiles being fixed fore and aft only.  The DP20 charges into the enemy and launches a missile salvo and then broadsides them with its main weapon batteries of turbolasers and quad lasers.  If it needs to retire it can delay pursuers with another missile barrage from the rear.  This makes maneuvering more tactical as well.

 

For cost what you should try is making up a fully fitted out version with all of the upgrades and see how much these upgrades alone would cost.

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One example of upgrades for the DP20:

(*mind you, not my first choice,

just making it very imperial)

Crew:           Darth Vader              (3)

Crew:           Tactician                   (2)

Team:          Sensor Team             (4) 

Hardpoint;    Single Turbolaser       (8)

Hardpoint;    Single Turbolaser       (8)

Hardpoint:    Quad Laser Cannons  (6)

Hardpoint:    Quad Laser Cannons  (6)

Missile:         Cluster Missiles           (4)

TOTAL:                                          41

 

Crew:           Rebel Captive              (3)

Team:          Gunnery Team            (4)  

Team:          Engineering Team        (4)  

Hardpoint;    Single Turbolaser         (8)   

Hardpoint;    Single Turbolaser         (8)

Hardpoint:    Quad Laser Cannons    (6)

Hardpoint:    Quad Laser Cannons    (6)

Missile:         Concussion Missiles      (4)

TOTAL:                                             43

 

Ship Upgrade Total: 84

 

So your point is that, for a fully upgraded DP20 the 

upgrades alone would be as much as the CR90 cards.

I'm not sure what you mean by "The base card for the ship..." If you are refering to the CR90 miniature symbol in the bottom left, until they release a DP20 miniature, the CR90 miniature serves as physical proxy, but I can still change the arcs for weapons by adding text on the aft card as there is still some room there.

There is another thread on another site I think where someone created individual pilot cards for around 20 different systems of the DP20 ship and they made the arcs forward and backward for the missiles, but I don't recall reading anywhere else that they should be directly forward and backward.

I should clear that up though, the fore and aft sections are going to have the 304 degree restrictions of the fore section primary weapon that references that blue line between the two ship sections.

So the aft section missile will have a wide (304°) arc towards the rear,

and the fore section missile will have a wide (304°) arc forward, just as it is.

14243300759_45fecb6043_b.jpg

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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How much play testing have you done with what you have right now?

I mean on a table playing a full game, for real play testing mind you now...

There hasn't been a finished card to play test until recently,

and I don't get to take Imperial ships lately either because

my wife has to have her two Firesprays, with Recon Specialists,

but after the game we are in the middle of...

14408443206_244f3cf5cc_c.jpg

... I'm going to let her try out the new version of the DP20 cards,

with her two Firesprays of course. I'm not entirely sure what

I should give myself in points though.

• The short answer to your question is, to date, none.

If you've got more time and opportunity perhaps you could play test it some and give some feedback?

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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Unlike its cousin, the CR90 corvette, the gunship had minimal cargo space and almost no space for passengers or troops. These small ships were designed to be only two things: fast and deadly. Engines consumed nearly half of the gunship's interior space. What little room was left was used for deflector shield generators and weapons.

 

 

I think there should only be room for 2 crew and 1 team, to make you have to choose what to take like the CR90.  We all wish the CR90 could take 4 crew, and it starts at base with 2. (can upgrade it to 3).

 

The people at ffg don't seem to mind how many turrets are on the model, the falcon and CR90 both having dorsal and ventral turrets but only counting as one attack.  I would count the turrets in batteries or bands, not by the number of them.

 

My Idea for Upgrade Lists:

Fore:

  • Crew
  • Team
  • Hardpoint
  • Hardpoint

Aft:

  • Crew
  • Hardpoint
  • Hardpoint
  • Module

Give it 6 Shields in the front and 4 in the back, and maybe keep the hull the same? In wookieepedia the Resistance units seem the same.

 

Maybe have a Hardpoint called "Concussion Missile Battery" where you spend a target lock and n Energy to make n+1 attacks of strength 4 and change one blank to a hit result.  Have the range be 1-3 and 3-5, where 3-5 increases the evade value by one but it doesn't have to be in the firing arc (represent the missile looping around the ship like in EaW)

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Unlike its cousin, the CR90 corvette the gunship had minimal cargo space and almost no space for passengers or troops. These small ships were designed to be only two things: fast and deadly. Engines consumed nearly half of the gunship's interior space. What little room was left was used fordeflector shield generatorsand weapons.

I think there should only be room for 2 crew and 1 team, to make you have to choose what to take like the CR90.  We all wish the CR90 could take 4 crew, and it starts at base with 2. (can upgrade it to 3).

 

The people at ffg don't seem to mind how many turrets are on the model, the falcon and CR90 both having dorsal and ventral turrets but only counting as one attack.  I would count the turrets in batteries or bands, not by the number of them.

 

My Idea for Upgrade Lists:

Fore:

  • Crew
  • Team
  • Hardpoint
  • Hardpoint
Aft:
  • Crew
  • Hardpoint
  • Hardpoint
  • Module
Give it 6 Shields in the front and 4 in the back, and maybe keep the hull the same? In wookieepedia the Resistance units seem the same.

 

Maybe have a Hardpoint called "Concussion Missile Battery" where you spend a target lock and n Energy to make n+1 attacks of strength 4 and change one blank to a hit result.  Have the range be 1-3 and 3-5, where 3-5 increases the evade value by one but it doesn't have to be in the firing arc (represent the missile looping around the ship like in EaW)

14415703576_de587cf1f9_c.jpg

I'm getting the sense that people are more interested in game play balance than in actual accuracy,

like it wouldn't matter if they came out with a miniature for the DP20 that was bigger than the CR90.

I'll have to consider how to make sure it's balanced after some play-testing.

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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