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Return to Mirkwood Nightmare Forced Question

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The Nightmare instruction for Return to Mirkwood reads:

 

Forced: At the beginning of the quest phase, the player who is guarding Gollum must either exhaust a hero he controls or resolve the "when revealed" effect of the topmost Tantrum card in the encounter discard pile. 

 

According to the latest FAQ, when a card reads "must either" the player can choose between either of the forced effects, though he must completely fulfill the effect (the key word here is "either" in contrast with the ruling above it in the FAQ).

 

My question is: If there are no Tantrum cards in the discard pile, can I still choose the second effect and therefore avoid exhausting a hero and resolving a Tantrum card? That is the way I have been playing it. Otherwise, exhausting a hero is really nasty at the beginning of the quest and makes this nightmare even more "nighmare-ish". Just wanted to follow the ruling on this one, since the FAQ addresses it.

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I played this one that you had to fully resolve one of the two options, so you would have to pick one you're able to do. I wasn't entirely sure whether or not you could do what you're suggesting either, I just sort of assumed the correct ruling is usually the one that makes it harder on the player, lol.

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Sure? Look at this card....

 

M1408.png

 

 

When Revealed: The first player (choose 1): deals 1 damage to all allies in play and Followed by Night gains surge, or all enemies engaged with players make an immediate attack, if able.

 

 

And when players see this card in setup are glad, because they can chose 2nd option without problems.

Edited by Mndela

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I mean that this card has 2 options, and you can try one of them even if not has effect

Edited by Mndela
booored likes this

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I think that card works because once you choose the second option, you're still carrying it out, just that there is 0 enemies to attack you. The "must either" wording on the card means you have to carry it out to the fullest effect, and it doesn't seem like you're fulfilling it unless you're revealing a tantrum card. I could be wrong though, it's a very tricky ruling. 

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@ Chris51261: This is why I am so confused. For the Followed by Night treachery, yes you are still carrying out the effect, even though no enemies attack. But in the same way, you can choose the Tantrum effect even if there are no Tantrum cards. The "must either" means you get to choose, but the one you do choose, you must do everything it says (or at least try to).

 

If this was not the case, then they would inverse the wording on it: Forced: At the beginning of the quest phase, the player who is guarding Gollum must resolve the "when revealed" effect of the topmost Tantrum card in the encounter discard pile or exhaust a hero he controls.

 

But it uses the key "must either" which entails a choice.

 

What if you were not able to exhaust a hero at the beginning of the quest phase because you did something else with them already, and there were no Tantrum cards in the discard pile? This would create an "unresolvable" effect by the way you are taking it to be. The player cannot do either of the effects, and therefore cannot resolve the card.

 

Therefore, I think the spirit of the FAQ and the card in question (Return to Mirkwood Nightmare) is that the player must choose one option, whether or not it actually does anything.

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That's a good point, I hadn't even thought of that. I'm still a little confused, and now I'm very curious as to the exact rules on making a choice like this are. I suppose there are other cards that you can pick and choose so that they have no effect, just that the wording on this one is new and says you have to "fully fulfill" an option. Maybe I'll shoot a question to FFG, see if they can shed some light on it. 

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if the card has multiple options to choose from, you can choose either option.. even if that option fizzles and can not resolve. 

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if the card has multiple options to choose from, you can choose either option.. even if that option fizzles and can not resolve.

Wrong, you can only choose either if either is doable. If one of the two options is not doable you must do the other.

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I re-read the rules on the issue with "must either," and it sounds like what PsychoRocka is saying is correct. If one of the options is possible to fulfill in full, you have to choose that one. Meaning that if you hadn't exhausted all your heroes, you would have to do that if no tantrum cards were in the discard pile, and if you had exhausted all of them, any tantrum cards in the discard pile would have to resolve their "when revealed effects." I'm still not positive when the card says to "choose one," you might actually be able to pick options that will do nothing. I sent a question in already asking, will let everyone know when they message back.

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I sent a question in already asking, will let everyone know when they message back.

 

Sounds good. Thanks!

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if the card has multiple options to choose from, you can choose either option.. even if that option fizzles and can not resolve.

Wrong, you can only choose either if either is doable. If one of the two options is not doable you must do the other.

Not true, you might wana read the rule book again. There is nothing to say you have to choose the one that doesn't fail. Look at the example Mneda posted

 

Sure? Look at this card....

M1408.png

When Revealed: The first player (choose 1): deals 1 damage to all allies in play and Followed by Night gains surge, or all enemies engaged with players make an immediate attack, if able.

And when players see this card in setup are glad, because they can chose 2nd option without problems.

He is correct, there is nothing saying you can not choose which one you like even if it fizzles.

Edited by booored

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Looking at the FAQ (1.44), you have to do one in full, so if you can't reveal a tantrum card you have to exhaust a hero. Harder for the player, as usual. :)

Look at this post however...

Followed By Night must be an exception then.... (or was created when this game was young and was worded badly) as in almost all other cases I've seen rulings in both the FAQ/Rules and people that have asked Caleb come back with: that one option must be fully resolved and able to occur or you must choose the other.

Edited by PsychoRocka

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http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/106214-must-x-or-y-blood-of-gondor-quest-1b/

Read this thread. Both cards use Must and Or (nightmare setup card for return to mirkwood and blood of gondor quest card) thereford OBVIOUSLY both act the same.

Followed by Night is clearly a special exception as it states that the first player may choose (and does not specify that if one fizzles/has no effect it cannot be chosen). I had not read this clearly but now that I have see the clear difference. This example is clearly a unique one as almost all over cards that present a "choice" almost always have MUST and OR as part of their text though so with this card you are correct however 9 times out of 10 encounter cards with a "choice" have MUST and OR as part of their text so this seems an exception to the rule.
 

Nightmare setup for Return to Mirkwood however most definitely does state MUST and OR therefore if there are no tantrum treacheries in the discard pile you MUST exhaust a hero.

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I mean that this card has 2 options, and you can try one of them even if not has effect

It has very clearly different text and rules to the nightmare setup card for return to mirkwood.

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Looking at the FAQ (1.44), you have to do one in full, so if you can't reveal a tantrum card you have to exhaust a hero. Harder for the player, as usual. :)

Look at this post however...

Followed By Night must be an exception then.... (or was created when this game was young and was worded badly) as in almost all other cases I've seen rulings in both the FAQ/Rules and people that have asked Caleb come back with: that one option must be fully resolved and able to occur or you must choose the other.

 

 

I think you're right, the "must either" and "must or" are direct results from people being able to take cards where you make a choice and have them do nothing. Having to choose an effect that fully triggers if possible gives those treacheries or whatever card it may be a little more bite. So we can still see what FFG says when they get back to me, but I think that cards like Followed by Night you can choose an effect that may effectively have no impact, as it is an older card. At least that's the way I'm reading it. We shall see. =)

Edited by Chris51261
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Looking at the FAQ (1.44), you have to do one in full, so if you can't reveal a tantrum card you have to exhaust a hero. Harder for the player, as usual. :)

Look at this post however...

Followed By Night must be an exception then.... (or was created when this game was young and was worded badly) as in almost all other cases I've seen rulings in both the FAQ/Rules and people that have asked Caleb come back with: that one option must be fully resolved and able to occur or you must choose the other.

 

 

I think you're right, the "must either" and "must or" are direct results from people being able to take cards where you make a choice and have them do nothing. Having to choose an effect that fully triggers if possible gives those treacheries or whatever card it may be a little more bite. So we can still see what FFG says when they get back to me, but I think that cards like Followed by Night you can choose an effect that may effectively have no impact, as it is an older card. At least that's the way I'm reading it. We shall see. =)

 

Yup much more thematic as well. You must guard gollum with a hero every turn or face one of his nasty tantrums!

Plus imagine for 3 or 4 turns that no tantrums did show up and there were still none in the discard pile... that would mean for the first 3 or 4 turns you would not have to exhaust a hero OR resolve a tantrum... far too easy for nightmare.

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Stricken-Dumb.jpg

 

When Revealed: You must either shuffle the top card of the burden deck into the encounter deck and reveal an additional encounter card, or raise each player's threat by 3 and immediately end the quest phase (do not resolve the quest).

 

'Must either' if i remember... the player who has revealed this card can chose 1 of the options.

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This card also need a choice and it doesnt write 'must either':

 

M1884.png

 

When Revealed: Each player must return the location he controls with the highest threat.png to the staging area, or raise his threat by the total threat.png of all locations he controls.

 

If you must do the first options and can't, it is useless to have to resolve the second option. Isn't? ^^

 

 

But it is not the op question.

 

I think yes, if you can't resolve the choice you chose, you must resolve the another. The next cards are examples:

 

Hunting-For-The-Ring.jpg

 

Unwanted-Attention.jpg

 

Lure-of-the-Ring.jpg

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Argh, just lost a big post. Rats.

 

I think I'm retreading old ground, but the FAQ is explicit.

 

"(1.44) “Must X or Y” vs “must either X or Y”
If a card instructs a player to perform one task or perform a second task using the structure “... must X or Y...” then the player must attempt to perform the first task, and performs the second task instead only if the first task cannot be performed.
If a card instead uses the structure “... must either X or Y...” then the player may choose which task to perform, although one of them must be performed in full, if able."
 
So Counter-Attack is missing the word 'either' to give it its intended effect (Mndela is right that the card has a problem as it is currently worded), and Followed by Night doesn't use this form of wording at all, so it shouldn't be used as an example of it. Either way, the FAQ is clear that the Return to Mirkwood set-up text wants you to completely fulfill one of the two options, hence the use of '...must either X or Y'.
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the player may choose which task to perform, although one of them must be performed in full, if able.

You know I always played it like Booored and Mndela but this little faq snip-it seams pretty clear. You may choose, but if one fails and the other doesn't you have to choose the one that doesn't fail.

Am I reading that right?

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the player may choose which task to perform, although one of them must be performed in full, if able.

You know I always played it like Booored and Mndela but this little faq snip-it seams pretty clear. You may choose, but if one fails and the other doesn't you have to choose the one that doesn't fail.

Am I reading that right?

 

Yep correct, you can choose between the options but you must choose an option that can actually take effect. If both options could resolve (you have hero's to exhaust AND there are tantrums in the discard pile) you could choose between them but if there are no tantrums you MUST exhaust a hero.

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Yeah, to sum up this thread (barring a completely different ruling from FFG when I hear back), if the card says "must" anywhere in it, you cannot pick an option that does nothing. There are treacheries that have you "choose," such as Followed by Night, and it is my understanding that you can pick an option that will effectively do nothing. These seem to be older cards and in an effort to make this happen less FFG reworded new treacheries to include "must." Could be wrong though, lol.

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