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raphaman

The Alchemist, invincible?

47 posts in this topic

Hello!

Yesterday I played with the Alchemist, and the Alternative Ending card: "Merchants' Guild". So it was pretty good for me. Here is what happened: I was in the City, in the magic shop. I looked at the card "scroll" and thought: "This is useless for me, I can already do it... But wait... It is a magic object!" Guess what I did... I bought one, alchemised it, I bought it again, alchemised it again, bought it again etc. Thanks to the Alternative Ending card, I was able to have as many gold as I wanted to! So I became invincible, because I could heal every lifes I lost... So I was invincible, and the game became too easy: I could buy everything I needed, I could always have 3 spells...

To conclude, we will probably never play with him again, or maybe change a bit the rules.

What do you think now? Do you think I cheated? What rules should we change for the alchemist now?

Have a great day!

Raphaman

Edited by raphaman

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You can't repeat encounters. Buying an object, then transmuting it, then buying again would be considered repeating the encounter of the Magic Emporium every time you buy something. You have to make all your purchases in one go, then do what you will with those purchases.

 

But yes, this is a well-known exploit of the Alchemist. You shouldn't change any rules. All you should change is now when someone draws the Alchemist and you are using the City expansion, everyone gangs up on him.

Edited by Artaterxes

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My only question about this was: am I allowed to buy something, to alchemise it and to buy it again during the same turn?

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There has been discussions on this here. I don't think there is an official ruling on this but most people play you can't make any more purchases that turn after you alchemize something.

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But it actually doesn't change a lot... You still earn 6 golds per turn (if there are 3 scrolls, cause I forgot)... So it still is easy for the alchemist. I think the only way to beat him would be that someone buys all the scrolls before the alchemist, or to gang up on him.

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Yes, you are right. Once you have completed an encounter, the encounter cannot be revisited or redone. The "encounter" for the Magic Emporium would be choosing all the objects you want to buy, then buying them all. You can't, for example, buy a few, transmute them (e.g. with an Alchemist follower or character), then buy more.

 

So the most you can do in one turn is buy 3 Scrolls for 3G and then transmute them for 9G. You will have to make another loop through the City to repeat this.

Edited by Artaterxes

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Oh? Once you are in a shop, you can't go back? E.g. I am in the Magic Emporium, I roll a die, and I make 4, I am not allowed to come back in?

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yeah I was gonna come back and share you have to leave and re-loop the city, so while its powerful it's not overly so in many people's minds, but some still think it is :ph34r:

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Yes, so he is not that powerful, but he still is very powerful. So, finally, I cheated, because I wasn't allowed to come back in the shop!

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We've had it happen in 6 player games quite a bit  and Alchemist is pretty much kill on sight, but you have to whack him of 4 Life between his turn or he's going to buy it all back on his turn. Dont forget if you're going to run in circles around the city, you can buy nasty items on your circuit too, you only need the three gold for the scrolls. This leaves you with 6, so might as well pick up that Flail or try and get your pet of choice.

 

Currently the most broken thing in the game right now, due to the fact that it's reliable and easy to accomplish in a game designed around very random variables.

 

With experienced tables you will see Death and the Werewolf making circuits around the City faster than the Alchemist, Death isn't so reliable at hitting him, but Werewolf will catch him every time.

 

....The thing is Alchemist can buy back his fate too....

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Currently the most broken thing in the game right now, due to the fact that it's reliable and easy to accomplish in a game designed around very random variables.

Oh PLEASE.... We have been down this road :).

Granville likes this

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Isn't there a pet that enables you to walk 1 step instead of moving normally. Otherwise there's aleways the poltergeist. If you take the time to enter the city with it you can buy your scrolls every second turn when you get there. Then you can exit the city from the square you can "rent a raft" (can't remember what it's called right now) and get rid of the poltergeist quickly before headin for the crown.

Then again; how fun is it to play this way? Is it really all about winning for some of you...?

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Yes there are ways to make your movement 1, and further abuse this, but again that isn't so common. You can even roll a 1, and visit the shop again. But because of all these things being uncommon, this makes him less threatening.

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Yes there are ways to make your movement 1, and further abuse this, but again that isn't so common. You can even roll a 1, and visit the shop again. But because of all these things being uncommon, this makes him less threatening.

Hmmmm? I was under the impression once a shop has been vistied a player cant step out and back in again? Or is that in the same turn? Gotto look that one up.

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So we just had a game end abruptly because of the Alchemist. I knew about how one could exploit him in the city but just had the first hand experience of seeing it in action....By the 5th turn the Alchemist had unlimited weath, a Flail, Plate armor, 2 pets (Terrance was drawn first), spellbook and a crap ton of spells and other miscellaneous stuff.

I have read up on ways to nerf him, however we are just pulling his card right out of the mix. What a waste.

We had 4 people playing and the person that stumbled onto this is a relative NOOB to games so it was not like She was purposely exploiting it until She figured how this was sooo good...... Even if the other 3 of us playing could have ganged up on her She most likely would have leveled us.

Sooo any chance anyone has heard of an "official" nerf or maybe an updated FAQ that is years too late? Either way, what the hell were they thinking with the Alchemist???

Edited by JediKnightAmoeba

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3 years have passed between the Highland (Alchemist) and the City Expansion. Of course they were not thinking about the City when they designed the character, which BTW has always been deemed OP for other reasons, but they apparently forgot to playtest the City with that character. A single game would have been enough to run into the problems we know very well.

 

There are two issues with the Alchemist:

 

1) Is he able to purchase an Object, turn it into gold, then resume the purchase?

 

Rules don't give much evidence on this so a clarification is required. Commonsense has decreed since a long time that it's nonsense to allow the Alchemist to do this, but I think this is not a good solution because other characters (e.g. Merchant) have exploited their abilities in the middle of a purchase activity. So I think it should be allowed.

 

2) If he purchases a Magic Object worth 2G or less and turns it into gold, he can actually gain gold. This can lead him to easily exploit the Magic Emporium and gain all gold in the game in 1 or more visits (depending on your ruling on issue no.1). How do you fix this?

 

Several solutions have been proposed, but the best one I've heard is to allow him to discard both Objects and Magic Objects for 1 gold only, like the Alchemist Follower. This would also fix his OP stance in a standard Crown of Command endgame.

 

"Official" nerfs have not been given yet, AFAIK.

Edited by The_Warlock

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I asked the question to FFG a few months ago and the response was that transactions have to be completed in a single purchase. Buying, using an ability, and buying again would be considering "encountering the space" twice.

The Merchant would be able to sell, trade, and sell again at the Village because those are his abilities, but once he chooses to buy from the Blacksmith, he has to pay a lump sum of money and buy all the objects at once. He can't "go back" and do it again after using some ability. He can still sell and trade further, just not buy again.

Keep in mind that this is based on emails to FFG and is not an official rule until the FAQ is updated.

DomaGB likes this

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The simple fact of the matter is a character cannot encounter the same space twice. If a character visits the Blacksmith in the Village and purchases an Axe, he cannot turn it into gold with the Alchemist Follower and then visit the Blacksmith again!!!

Edited by talismanamsilat
Artaterxes likes this

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The simple fact of the matter is a character cannot encounter the same space twice. If a character visits the Blacksmith in the Village and purchases an Axe, he cannot turn it into gold with the Alchemist Follower and then visit the Blacksmith again!!!

 

This seems to imply that using an ability makes the space encounter automatically end (then you cannot encounter the same space again on the same turn).This isn't written ANYWHERE, therefore it's too much of a game changer to be automatically assumed.

 

I cannot see how this could be possible as a general rule. Special abilities are meant to work as required. Using the Thief's ability to steal a card from the Purchase Deck while at the Village does not end the space encounter. Once he has declared he's encountering the Village, he can do it either before or after resolving the Blacksmith, Healer or Mystic. Therefore, I can't see how the Alchemist cannot be used after purchasing something, then resume purchasing.

 

I don't think Talisman core rules are so obvious, complete and perfect as you often seem to affirm; on the contrary, I think that there are infinite small problems hidden behind the undefined wording used in the base set. These are by no means big issues if you want to play the game, since any group can find a reasonable solution, but too many good questions have been asked on subjects I used to take for granted. On most subjects, nobody can state that everything is written in stone and all that we need is to behold and learn.

Edited by The_Warlock
JediKnightAmoeba likes this

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I think the debate is that a character's special ability, which may be done repeatedly, is actually distinct from encountering a space, which can be only done once. The debate is also over whether such abilities which become available upon encountering ("visiting") a space actually occur prior to and/or after the space encounter, not in conjunction with. It's something that could use a FAQ entry...

Edited by Artaterxes

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