R7-T1 and the Usage of "May"

[ixdta39 80]

Hi all, I was wondering with the wording of the R7-T1 astromech, if I declare my action to use R7-T1, and then does that mean I can measure targets so that I may "choose an enemy ship at range 1-2" and after doing that if I am within that target's firing arc, I "may acquire a target lock on that ship."  So naturally if I have another target lock my decision to acquire a new one is up to me given the may clause.  My question is if I elect not to take the target lock on the target that is at range 1-2 from the active ship and am within that target's firing arc, can I still get my boost action?

 

I understand the notion of the If Then clause however with the addition of "may" it seems like whether I take the target lock or not, the If clause should be true no?

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

It seems to me that if the boost was conditional on taking the TL that, either it should be part of the same sentence "you may acquire a target lock on that ship, then you may perform...", or the last sentence should have been phrased, "If you do, you may perform..."

On the other hand, if the boost isn't supposed to be contingent on the TL, it should really have been phrased "you may acquire a target lock on that ship. Perform a free boost action."

Basically, you are going to get some conflicting points of view on this one because the card is poorly worded.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Forgottenlore

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

As forgotten said, there are essentially two community opinions on this card.

 

I'm on the side that believes that the boosting part is not dependent on the target locking part. In other words: You can boost if you are able to choose an enemy ship at range 1-2. And if you happen to be inside its firing arc, you may get a target lock before boosting.

 

The most conflictive word in the card is "Then" which in my opinion means that if you are going (are able) to take the Target Lock, you must always do so before boosting. Thus, I consider it a timing clause, not a conditional clause.

 

'THEN' could have the conditional meaning the other side of the debate defends if it actually were on the same phrase as the 'IF' part, making it an 'if > then' clause. But the 'IF' part on the card already has its resolution: "If you are inside enemy's firing arc >>>> You may take a target lock". That's the complete conditional sentence by itself, hence, the 'then' word is no part of the conditional clause, having a timing meaning, not a conditional one. Also, note that if you eliminate the whole phrase from the card, R7-T1 still works:

'Choose a enemy ship at range 1-2. Then, you may perform a boost action'.

 

Besides, if the boost were dependent on the target lock part, then the whole card can only be effectively used if the enemy is pointing at you. However, if that were the case, the text card would also allow you to voluntarily make it fizzle (because you can validly choose an enemy ship which clearly doesn't have you inside its firing arc). The card would be still activated, since all requeriments are met, but you would waste your action.

 

It would be like saying: "Action: Choose a ship at range 1-2, if that ship is an ally you can do a triple boost with cheese and bacon, but if that ship is an enemy, you can do nothing".... Sounds silly, right?

[dvorm 1,058]

There has been a long discussion about the topic. There is no consensus. The FAQ has to cover this.

 

link

 

IMHO disagreement is based on different interpretations of grammar:

 

a) The full stop (1) between "ship" and "then" is interpreted in two ways.

1. It terminates the conditional sentence. The following part is not a consequence clause.
2. It terminates the conditional clause. The following part is the consequence clause which refers to the word "if".

b) From the answer to a) follows that "then" is either

1. temporal or
2. conditional.

 

AFAIK every English linguist will answer a) with 1.That does not stop people from arguing.

 

Edit:

Regarding the original question, there seems to be a consensus that you do not need to acquire the TL in order to boost. The disagreement is about whether or not the firing arc condition needs to be true to get the option to boost.

 

 

 

(1) Or "period" for those who do not understand British English.

Edited May 24, 2014 by dvor

[Parravon 5,217]

I'm of the opinion that the action is the whole card. Not just pick a close enemy, then boost. The last debate on this got pretty furry, and I don't want to open that can of worms again.

I wrote to FFG a while ago regarding another card I was unclear about and they wrote back stating that "using a card with the 'Action:' header requires an action, such as the action you have during the Perform Action step." I interpret that to mean the card is the action, and therefore the whole card. At least that's the way I'll be playing it, because that's the way I read it.

 

Others may disagree. Meanwhile, we await a possible FAQ resolution.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Parravon

[ixdta39 80]

Thank you everyone for your feedback on this topic.

I'm sorry I didn't see/find that original post and that this topic has been known to cause quite a bit of a stir but I'll read the thread nonetheless to hear the discussion

Edited May 24, 2014 by ixdta39

[Danath "ATLAS" 326]

FYI

 

 Rule Question:
Hello,

Can you please explain R7-T1s ability, 'Choose an enemy ship at Range 1-2. If you are inside that ship's firing arc, you may acquire a target lock on that ship. Then, you may perform a free boost action'.

Do you have to meet all the requirements before boosting or can you choose not to acquire a target lock (maybe you already have them target locked).

Are you able to boost if you are in range 1-2 but not inside a firing arc?

Thanks,

J

 

If a ship equipped with R7-T1 is at Range 1–2 and inside the firing arc of an enemy ship, the following sequence occurs: the ship equipped with R7-T1 may acquire a target lock on the enemy ship. Then, the ship equipped with R7-T1 may perform a free boost action, even if it did not acquire a target lock on the enemy ship.

Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks

Edited July 17, 2014 by Danath

[ScottieATF 2,867]

So you have to meet the Range and Arc Requirement but don't have to perform the TL to Boost?

[Parravon 5,217]

So it seems. Glad that someone got an answer from FFG on this one. 

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

I'm not sure the main problematic question is still fully answered.

 

The answer details what happens when you are at range 1-2 and inside firing arc, yes, but it doesn't say a word about being outside firing arc.

 

And it doesn't states that both range & arc are simultaneous requeriments in order to activate the card. (And card's wording certainly implies that you can select a ship being outside fire arc).

 

The only thing we know for sure now is that you can indeed boost even if you don't take the target lock. Moreover, that makes the "boost while being outside fire arc" still fully posible, since the TL is clearly not a requeriment to boost.

 

To be really sure how this card works, the last question on Danach's submittion should be answered... Which isn't in that post.

[StephenEsven 632]

I think it is indeed answered by Frank.

He clearly states if both requirements are net the following sequence occurs.

This also means that if the requirements are not met it does not happen. And the boost is part of the sequence.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

No, Frank didn't state explicitly that both range and arc were requeriments to activate the ability. He only explained the sequence that happens when you are both at range and in fire arc.

 

It's the following post the one that automatically  assumed (I may dare to say incorrectly) that both were requeriments.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Jehan Menasis

[dvorm 1,058]

The answer says nothing about being in range but not in arc. So there is no answer to the original question: "Are you able to boost if you are in range 1-2 but not inside a firing arc?"

 

You do not need to acquire the TL to get the boost. That part of the discussion is solved.

[Bilisknir 443]

If a ship equipped with R7-T1 is at Range 1–2 and inside the firing arc of an enemy ship, the following sequence occurs: the ship equipped with R7-T1 may acquire a target lock on the enemy ship. Then, the ship equipped with R7-T1 may perform a free boost action, even if it did not acquire a target lock on the enemy ship.

Thanks for playing,

 

Frank Brooks

 

The "and" is his... the highlighting is mine. I think that is pretty clear.

[StephenEsven 632]

As do I.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Franks ruling is clear, but the wording of the card is less so.

The condition of being in the defenders arc is part of the sentence for the TL action. Which means the condition could be part of the TL not the over all action. Especially since the TL action is optional.

A better way to word the card based on Frank's ruling is this.

Choose an enemy ship at Range 1-2, if you are inside the ship's firing arc. You may acquire a target lock on that ship. Then, you may perform a free boost action.

The way it is worded currently does work, just not as clearly as it could be. I bolded the only change I made to the wording, it's pretty minor. But would make the card more clear.

[Buhallin 4,563]

If a ship equipped with R7-T1 is at Range 1–2 and inside the firing arc of an enemy ship, the following sequence occurs

 

This looks to me like it lays out the entire triggering condition for R7-T1.  You have to be both in range and arc, or nothing happens.  He didn't list the in range but not in arc, just like he didn't like the in arc but not in range, because they're not triggering conditions.

[ixdta39 80]

So does this mean that if I choose a ship that I am within range 1-2 of and I am not within the firing arc of that ship, did I lose my action?

[Buhallin 4,563]

So does this mean that if I choose a ship that I am within range 1-2 of and I am not within the firing arc of that ship, did I lose my action?

Nobody really knows.  You can measure before choosing to use R7-T1 though, and that should include the firing arc check as well.

[Parravon 5,217]

So does this mean that if I choose a ship that I am within range 1-2 of and I am not within the firing arc of that ship, did I lose my action?

No it doesn't mean you lose your action, just the use of R7-T1 as an action. You've still got your usual actions to choose from. It's the same as declaring a roll or boost. If you are unable to complete it, you get to choose something else.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

If Frank post is indeed the only way of using the card, then R7-T1's text should be errataed.

 

As written, it induces to error, since choosing a ship and not being in its fire arc is a possibility allowed by the very own card's text.

[StephenEsven 632]

It is a possibility, but you would ve doolish to actually pick a ship where you are not i it's arc.

I think it is easy to do a sentence referring range and own fire aec. But the aentence wouks be very hard to phase to refer to range and the target ships firing arc. That is why it is worded in multiple sentences.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It is a possibility, but you would ve doolish to actually pick a ship where you are not i it's arc.

If you're range 1, a boost will quite often move you so the defender is no longer in your arc. So you just gained a TL on something you can't shot at.

But the aentence wouks be very hard to phase to refer to range and the target ships firing arc.

Both myself and Buhallin wrote one that would work.

[GreenSqnPilot 3]

Proper noob question, that almost justifies this threadomancy, but does this meant he pilot/ship can boost even if it doesn't have the boost action as an option already?

[LemonheadPrime 88]

Proper noob question, that almost justifies this threadomancy, but does this meant he pilot/ship can boost even if it doesn't have the boost action as an option already?

 

Yes.